The Crispin Colloquy

Here is a home made skiving surface, as suggested by DW. I used a 1 gallon glass jug and miscellaneous wood and hardware that was floating about in my garage. Works well!

Rick,

That looks good! Kind of a variation of what I described but it looks like it works great.

For the record, this was not my idea...I had a student who couldn't find a '51 Chevy pick up side window and came up with the idea on his own. I did suggest that he might have a glass cutter cut a cider jug. In later years I have been told that doing that is very hard as the glass doesn't want to cut clean...and it might have been expensive. But the student just got the idea in his brain and ran with it.

I like it when it happens that way!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I thought about cutting it in half but, after a little experimentation, I realized that approach would probably end in tears.

DW, Rick

That is the most sensible skiving surface I have ever seen. It's nothing less than BRILLIANT.... I love it!

Rick

BTW, thats what I was shown as a 'Planing Knife', what I was talking about for doing heels!

JesseLee

Jesse Lee,

The original idea (the one my earlier student came up with) was simply to cut a hole in the bench a little bit narrower than the diameter of the jug. The jug would just sit down in the hole--for a very stable surface.

My own setup is a '51 Chevy pickup side window...which is pretty much like a jug cut in half length-wise.

My own teacher used the front screen from an old tv (we're talkin' really old school here)--before the front of the tube became the front of the screen. Time I came through, such screens were no longer available...not even at the dump. One day I was at the wrecking yard looking for something else and spotted the chevy window...a light went off and I bought two on the spot.

Such a set up makes skiving a dream and very controllable.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW

I know those winders well. I used to drive the desert in one of them old Chevy's (still got the shop manual). But is is ingenious. The rounded surface and all, indeed you can controll the skive, brilliant. I use a dumb old piece of marble, as I was also a bookbinder. Its a great idea. Unfortunately mine are occupied making an English stout!
Cheers,
JesseLee and John Henry

Jesse Lee,

That knife is what I call a skiving knife but it is used for everything. It looks like that is a left handed one. I always used a flat piece of glass like from a VW side window. What would we do without old cars?

tim

Tim

Those are great knives old son. I used to make them. I do use mine to skive/pare leather. The manner in which it is used to 'plane' is not that far from woodworking. The steep angle of the blade with cutting angle and sharpness, it is laid flat on the heel or sole edge and simply guided/pushed and it taked down all the bumps. I use mine for everything. In both shoe/bootmaking and the cobbler Trade there is a thin knife about 3-4 inches long with a tapered blade forcutting and skiving. I have a bunch of old ones, never used 'em in favor of the plane/skiving knife.

Yup, we love them old cars for more reasons than one! Glass has long been a bootmakers friend, both for skiving and for scraping smooth. One of these days i'll travel foreward in time and get a video camera and put the techniques on film. It's hard to explain, easy to show and takes time to answer.

off topic, just a thought, I have a videographer lined up to do some of my music videos this year or next. he's an artist so he may be interested in doing a set of videos showing how to make old timey boots.

JesseLee

Knives very similar to the one shown in Rick's photo are known as "paring" knives in the Barnsley catalog...and probably known as such dating back to before the beginning of the 20th century.

I bought mine from Germany where it was known as a skiving knife, if I recall correctly.

There is a very sweet knife on the market and available in the US which is curved lengthwise and widthwise. Unfortunately for the "push" method of skiving, the edge is always on the left hand side of the knife...but then that's what we have grinders for. It is marketed under the Bacho(?) brand--it's made in Norway or Sweden. I just call them "fish" knives because they have a little shark imprinted on the blade. I got mine from some outfit in California...but I cannot recall the company name--started with an "S," I believe.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on July 26, 2007)

As for handedness. Should the blade be as in A or B?

Rick,

B would be correct. It would not dig into the material. But as for handedness I would think that your knife is right handed. I will bow to the more experienced for a final call but I kinda learned to skive from the old Al Stohlman books. If I am pushing I prefer to have the longest tip of the knife on the topside. I find it easier to pull skive from the opposite side of the material and the tip of the blade is on the bottom and angled away from me.

Given all of that...there are a bunch of ways to approach skiving and it all depends on how you were taught and what feels right.

I just drained a gallon bottle of scotch (not down the drain either) so I am going to give your skiving table a try.

Thanks,

Mark

Rick

B is right handed
A is left handed

JesseLee

Rick,

As it's shown in the photo...the knife is sold by Goetz as a left handed skiving knife. It is intended to be used on a flat surface, pulling the blade through the edge of the leather...which would be towards the right. Because it is left-handed it is ideal for us push skivers (doing everything the hard and backwards way ) who are right handed.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

In Rick's picture of A and B. Should the bevel be up? Or could it be used either way?

If you were going to use this as a pull skive would the point still lead and you would skive down the left side from top to bottom?

So if you had the so called right handed version you could pull it down the right side with the point leading on the inside.

That was a really clear question. If you understand any of it let me know

Thanks,

Mark

Mark,

Rick's drawing is great but I don't really understand what is being depicted especially as it relates to the photo of the knife--I can't orient the knife with either of the drawings.

But, no matter...in pull skiving the point always trails the heel of the edge. These knives are almost aways sharpened exclusively from one side. Although you certainly can sharpen them from both sides...especially if it is to be more of an all purpose knife.

In Rick's photo if a left handed person picked up the knife, just as it sits, and pulled it down along an edge that was to the right, the heel would lead but the the point (and the belly) of the blade would be cutting.

In my world the thin bladed, handled, skiving knife works better for pull skiving because you can bend the knife and creat a narrower cutting line. Pull skiving is almost always done on a flat surface. But bending the blade is the inverse of using a flat blade on a curve glass surface. So the principle of a narrower cutting line is the same.

If a right handed person picked up the knife (just as it sits) they would push it along an edge that would, also, be to the right. And the heel and belly would be cutting. This is very difficult to do with any control on a flat surface. On a curved surface, however, it surpasses the pull skive method for control and exactitude.

In both cases...with the same knife...the bevel would be upwards.

Hope that helps...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

All,

Sorry I started something that I couldn't finish with that statement. I have been driving for about 8 hours today and realised that Rick was probably using the knife by pushing it. For that it is a right handed knife. I always (nearly always) pulled the knife and used a flat surface for which it is a left-handed one.

The Goetz knife with the fish sounds almost the same as the Don Carlos knife I use, also from Goetz. Same shape etc.

For skiving, the knife should be sharpened on one side, with the slope being on top. This keeps the cutting edge down. If you sharpen both sides I think it would make it much harder to control.

I have tried push skiving using a large chisel-like blade on a flat surface after watching a Chinese shoemaker do it, but have never attempted to skive on a curved surface. One day you can show me DW.

Mark,

Sorry I missed this one. If you are pull skiving, with a right handed knife you would pull it down the left hand side, (the left hand holds the work to stop it moving), and the point is actually the last part of the blade to reach the material. The point sits on the surface of the glass to help regulate the depth of the skive.

Does that help? If not I will look for an image tomorrow for you.

Tim

Tim,

Sometimes it amazes me--here you and I are, continents apart, never having met....understanding skiving knives and using them virtually identically. Two different "traditions"..."schools," if you like...and yet no real difference. What's the old saying? "Great rivers and great minds run in the same direction."

But at the same time, especially in isolated pockets--valleys deep between forbidding mountain ranges--different ways of doing the same thing can and do exist. Neither good nor bad, just different...well, maybe a little inbred .

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

Tim,

I probably did not articulate what I wanted but the way that you explained it is exactly the way that I do it. I do not use the pairing knife that Rick shows in his photo. I use a clicker knife and pull it down the left side of the material with the heel of the knife leading.

I was just getting confused with the whole left-handed right-handed thing. but I guess it doesn't matter what you call it as long as the knife is razor sharp.

Thanks for the clarity.

Mark

This has all been very enlightening. Maybe one of our experienced members can put this on their list to make a video some day.

Like many things, skiving is simple in concept but takes a great deal of experience to really understand.

All,

No video yet but there is this old post showing a picture of how I skive half way down the post. It's in a slightly odd position in order to get a good angle on the picture to show what I do. I skive on a flat piece of glas, I do like working on a car window but the flat side window, noting curved for me. That's just how I was taught and what works for me.
As you can see I'm right handed so for lefties it's the other way around.

My knife is also sharpened on one side, like Tim mentioned. Unlike Tim the sloped side of my knife is down when skiving. The reason is that the knife, if only pulled forward wants to turn of in the direction of the flat side. So by having the slope down the knife will always want to work it's way up, out of the material. If you fail to pay attention for a split second your knife will not cut to deep and ruin the piece of leather your working on.
Same when using the knife to trim the sole on a shoe or boot, it wants to turn away from the shoe or boot when you pull so by steering you can guide it just right but if you just let it travel by itself it won't cut into your work.

I really did not mean to add to the confusion! I hope that by explaining why I do this it makes any sense. There really is not wrong way of doing things, try them and find what works for you.

Rob

Rob,

Gee, my experiences are just the opposite...

Maybe I'm reading you wrong but, in my experience, if the bevel is upward (away from the material) the knife tends to dive into the leather. I've seen that with drag knives...very popular among the Brits...and I've gotten myself in trouble because of it--where the blade dives into the leather and cuts more deeply than I wanted. American lip knives are sharpened just the opposite and are very much harder to get started and keep on track because they want to "surface." Which explains the problem that novices have in learning to use a lip knife--they are constantly chip, chip, chipping away at the leather rather than making one long clean cut around the sole.

Wood chisels are the same way...at least that's what I have always seen...bevel up and the chisel wants to dig, bevel down and the chisel wants to plane up out of the wood. Same with woodturning tools in opposite way: Woodturning tools are always used with the bevel towards the material and the old axiom is "ride the bevel." This insures that you can approach and make contact with the turning wood without the risk of a "catch." Take a "bedan" tool (sharpened with a steep bevel on one edge only) and turn it upside down and watch out!!

As for skiving knives, I want the knife to bite into the leather even though I know it risks cutting too deep. If the "bite" is assured, then all you have to worry about is adjusting for the correct amount of bite. If the knife wants to "surface," you not only have to approach the leather at a steeper angle but you are fighting that tendency all the time.

I probably just misunderstood but that's the way I see it, using a variety of edged tools.

And I agree about no right or wrong way...maybe in the end it's just a matter of angle and what angle you are used to--if it works for you, it's correct.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

We're saying the same thing, bevel or sloped side up will cause bite, bevel down will turn the knife up, out of the leather.
Good comparison with wood chisels. I've seen competent woodworkers use the chisel both ways, depending on what they try to achieve. The major difference is that with a chisel you normally work away from your body, with a knife you pull towards your body, or at least I do (while leaving enough room that if it slips you do not cut yourself)

I want the knife to come up and will adjust it down as needed. Your right that when your unexperienced you get the chipped edges this way but with inexperience you get deep gashes the other way.

When I'm skiving I go more on what I feel than what I see. The resistance and the angle of the knife give me more and better feedback than what my eyes. Once I see something go wrong it's already to late.
Personally I find it easy to correct the knife down into the material since I have a smooth glass surface underneath. I can also keep my hands relatively far from the area I skive so I can make nice long runs without having to stop and adjust my holding hand all the time.
I would worry that if the knife wants to go deep and your pulling it up, your work is not as securely pressed onto the glass, making it harder to get a smooth skive. Never tried skiving any really areas that way, just the tight corners on a vamp when I push skive the last quarter inch or so. (I could try to skive left-handed but all bests are off when I try that)

No wrong way, just the way I do it cause that's what works for me.

Rob

(Message edited by relferink on July 27, 2007)

Rob,

Yeah, now that I went back to that old post you mentioned above, I can see that we're actually doing it pretty much the same way...at least I think we are. At least we understand it the same.

I went out and got my new camera set up and took a couple of quick shots...probably unnecessay but hey, it was a good excue to play with the camera.

First shot is pull skiving on a flat glass plate with a Bahco "fish" knife." This is not my preferred method, so be tolerant.

Second photo is push skiving on a glass dome with the same kind of knife just sharpened on the other edge.

Third shot is "super macro" (1 cm) of the brand/logo of the fish knife.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Rick DW,

When you skive on the glass dome, what direction is the curve of the dome, is it in the direction you skive, "A" so you skive "down the slope" or is it direction "B". Since it's a glass dome it kind of hard to see

Rob