Tools of the Trade

[jenny_fleishman]

Just ordered the left handed version of this knife so I can try push skiving:

http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI D=18112

The edge length is somewhat longer than my other Tina knife, so I don't know if that's a problem, but it's the only left hand one I could find, other than waiting 3 months for McPherson to order from Goetz.

Also ordered a Razor Sharp system. I think I'm becoming a tool junky. Rob, I think my tool collection is bigger than your collection! [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/proud.gif"%20ALT=":O[/img]

Jenny

[dw]

Tool junky? No such thing! On my *main* bottoming bench I have over 20 awl hafts and awls in a small wax filled urn; I have 10 hammers, 12 lasting pincers, and over a dozen straight bladed and/or head knives of one kind or another (not including drag knives, rhan knives, french skives, etc.)

I have two bottoming benches, a last modeling bench, and two cutting benches (one upstairs, one down)...with knives, awls, and hammers present on each of those.

And that's just for starters....[img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/proud.gif"%20ALT=":O[/img]

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[jenny_fleishman]

DW, do you have a dedicated bench grinder just for your Razor Sharp system? I initially called the company that makes the system to try to order from them, and that's what they recommend because they say the wheels can develop a wobble if they're taken on and off the grinder too much. I just bought a bench grinder to use with other wheels, and now am thinking I have to buy a second one. I'm running out of space for all this stuff!

P.S....That sounds like one fine tool collection you have!

[dw]

Jenny,

Yes, I got a cheapo at Sears and set it up. You really wouldn't want to do it any other way.

PS. I have a couple of tools that are "hallmarked"...meaning, according to my history guru, that they may go back to the 1700's.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

I have a few old tools I bought off E-Bay, and from the condition of them, wish I hadn't!

Does anyone know of a place to get narrow lasting pincers for working around tight curves? Someone mentioned using a needle-nosed pliers, which sounds like a good alternative if the real thing can't be found...

Jenny

[dw]

Goetz has several pair...but you'd have to order from Oregon Leather in Seattle. The best are the chrome plated Scheins (I have three pair--sm., med, lg.-- and I love them). But they also have another set of three (you don't have to buy all three) that have shorter handles--796 211 00, ...05, and ...10.

Sometimes Ebay will have a pair of Timmins or flat hammer Whitcher style that can be ground down, widthwise, in the jaws.

In that regard, Ebay can be a very good source of tools...you just need to be careful and know what you are looking at and for.

Pincers, for instance, if you can't see the teeth on the pincers clearly and/or they are not sharp, the best advice would be to pass. Photos are critical and any tool not presented with a photo...and a *sharp* photo, should be passed up.

Simlarly, many tools are so pitted with rust by the time a reseller gets them that they feel obligated to clean them up and polish them before placing them up for auction. However, this almost always results in a non-functional tool as details and important ridges, depressions and fittings are lost to the grinder and buffing wheel. Better the rusty tool that can be judiciously cleaned up without destroying the functionality. Polishing a tool is like stripping varnish off a Chippendale table. Even though the original finish seemed an eyesore, the difference in value from original finish to new may be as much as $100,000.00.

Also, Ebay provides a link to ask the seller a question...any tool, such as pincers, that has articulating parts needs to be verified as "tight." I have bought many tools off Ebay and the one time I got "snookered"... I didn't ask, and the jaws on a pair of pincers were so loose as to be unusable...my fault.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[ttex]

Jenny


I was scanning what has been going on and saw DW pict. If you imagine the glass (8 mm) standing up in your lap, the actual cutting edge at an angle to the skin-leather and pull.

What you see here is paper(glass) a straight berg knife I have at home.

SAFETY FIRST Don’t pull the knife so that it could fly up in your face or neck. the best line would be from your hip to your shoulder. Safety first!!!!!!!!!!! If you start using this method and have to shiv a HARD counter you could pull the knife into your face.

You can see why the knife is curved and not flat length wise.

I hope this helps. I think this is how Rob does it to?

CW

3996.jpg

[jenny_fleishman]

Chris, are you saying you use a piece of flat glass as a skiving surface and hold it almost upright instead of laying it down on a table?

Jenny

[ttex]

Jenny

You got it. That is how all the makers her in DK do it. Alot of Brits do it that way to. I would think the Germans do it to. Maybe Rob can jump in here and help. You can decide the angle that suits you.

The only time I lay the material down is when I take the corner off the welt before sewing it on.

The reason the Americans don't is history. The traditions come from saddle makers that work with large pcs of leather. Our tradions come from shoemaking and small work areas along with smaller material pcs. As many say/write there is no right or wrong way but tradions are based on things like lack of room and the fact that getting up and walking around cost time. we are lucky enough in our time to pick and choose.

The desk I'm making for my work area is standing height. I pick and choose.

A triagle-file a little pc of wood with grinding compound and a leather strap don't take up that much space. The glass (16*14- the size I will have cut for me here at home) fits in a notch beside your cutting board under your work bench.

I have a pc of marble for doing stamping work on veg tan.that is because of the way it take the shock of the hammer strikes. I would never use it for shiving because it is not smooth enough.
Those that use a marble table for shiving do it because of saddle making tradition. Tradition creates habits that people use and don't know where it comes from.

I can tell you alot more about traditions if you want but it might seeeeeeem like rambling.

BTW, thanks for the copy and paste idea!

The hospital was hard on me today, I'll talk at you later
CW

[jenny_fleishman]

Well, my head is spinning! Maybe I'll just attach my Razor Sharp wheels to my head and save myself from having to buy a second bench grinder for them!

Can anyone give me an excuse to buy this knife?

https://www.siegelofca.com/itemdetail.asp?prodid=256

I really want one (for no rational reason), but if it's not very good for skiving (per DW), what would it be good for?

Does anyone use a head knife for things such as cutting insoles or outsoles? Currently I use shears, and am thinking if the head knife works it would be easier on my hands, which are prone to tendonitis...What surface would you lay the leather on so the knife blade isn't dulled when it contacts the cutting surface?

Jenny

[shoestring]

DW,
Is there a contact number or web page for Oregon Leather.

Ed

[jenny_fleishman]

Ed, DW...re Oregon Leather, doing a Google search I finally found a Seattle phone number for them, but it was a wrong number. So I called their Portland location. They didn't have the pincers, so I asked if they had a Seattle location, and they said MacPherson Leather! Their number is 800-343-9949.

I spoke to someone at MacPherson, and they couldn't find info on the Scheins pincers (DW, are these part of the Goetz collection?). They did have one type of pincer in stock that came in two sizes ($65), and they also can get the 796 211 style DW mentioned when they order from Goetz in a "few" weeks. They didn't know the price on those, but thought it might be slightly lower than the pincers they have in stock.

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

That's the place...

All I have is a 1999 catalog...I keep giving my catalogs to students...but the Scheins are 796 214...00(sm) and ...10(wide). They used to have three sizes...I know, I have three sizes.

If you order from them, make sure you order an English language Goetz catalog.

BTW, I didn't say you couldn't skive with that knife...just that I wouldn't--with so many better alternatives, why would I?

I would use it for rough cutting insoles, tapering dacron taws, and just about any place an Indianhead (triangular), round, or head knife might be used....maybe not as appropriately in some cases, but there you have it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, DW. They're mailing me a Goetz catalog. Hopefully it's in English, and not an antique!

I received the English paring knife today. It's got some significant differences from the Dutch Tina in weight and the angle of the cutting edge. It'll be interesting to compare the two knives, if I ever get them adequately sharpened!

Jenny

[ttex]

Jenny

Sorry about causing problems. Try things out, that means tools and methods. It takes a while to really get the feel of a method. I think that is why most people find something that works for them and they stick with it. I was forced to learn some different methods because I switched workshops during my 5 yrs. I used machines to shiv when I was an cobbler appr., and I was at two different shops as an orth. appr.

It's time for breakfast. Ya'll have a nice day.
CW

[jenny_fleishman]

Chris, you're not causing problems at all. It's very interesting and helpful to hear all the different techniques and methods different people use, and I'm finding it all rather amazing! So many choices!

Jenny

[relferink]

t's been some time since I had the chance to post and it looked liked I missed a lot.

On sharpening the knife: my grandfather used to say you can tell the shoemaker by his (or her) knifes. It's arguably the most diverse and important tool to our disposal. The sharper the knife the safer it is to work with and the better the product so knife sharpening is not just a side discussion. I'm glad it so many contributed with their ways and techniques.
As to the way I do tings, lets take a look a the different knifes.

4005.jpg

I couldn't find my pattern cutters knife for the picture but I only use that to cut paper patterns. The unique quality that knife has is that it's handle has a sharp metal point on the opposite end form the knife to make markings in pattern paper.
#1 is the Murphy Square point shoe knife. I recently bought a couple but don't work with them much, I use them mostly to cut the soles of shoes that need to be modified.
#2 not sure where this welt knife came from, I would have sworn I got a new one when I started school and I know I did not use it that much to look like this.
#3 my TINA upper cutting knife, thiner than my regular tina so it's easier to take tight turns. It's sharpened without any direction, not left or right handed, both sides are tapered equally.
#4 my all round tina knife, it's sharpened for a right hand user like myself and I use it for everything from cutting sheet material to trimming and skiving. The one next to it, #5 is newer and I'm still working on the blade angle, I like to have a long cutting edge, for heavy duty materials I cut lower on where the steel is thicker, for delicate work I use the tip. It takes quite some time for a knife to be sharpened just perfect for me. Once it's there sharpening is just a maintenance issue. Since it is so hard to get a knife just perfect you risk you life taking a shoemakers knife for any other reason than to safe his life. Just like a good chef, you have your own set of knifes and take them with you wherever you go. Tools are personal items and that's not to be taken lightly.
#6 is an older knife, it's been used every day for at least 5 years so that would account for about a quarter inch of wear per year.
#7 is a skiving knife but not something I like to use as you can see by it's nearly new condition. It's rounded to the front, that makes it very hard to sharpen well.
#8 is my hook blade I use it for cutting fiberglass casts. Not much used in the shop but it never hurts to have a utility knife handy.

To the left on top is my diamond wet stone, the way I use it is straight passes perpendicular to the cutting edge. Next I use my oil stone, not with oil, that's the one on the lower left. The picture does not show it but it has 2 type of stone fused together, one fine and one finer. I use a circular motion on this stone with my knife. On my Right hand oriented knife I only sharpen one side on the diamond wet stone but do both sides on the oil stones. The curved side, where I take away steel to sharpen more than the other side cause I want to take out any damage that may have scored the steel during it's use.
After all that to the strop first on the wood side, than the leather side with the polishing compound. The leather is just nailed on on both ends, no glue in there.

I have used mechanical sharpening in the past but really prefer to do it by hand, it's so easy to burn a knife on a mechanical stone, to take that weak spot out of the knife takes forever and there is no way to have a burned knife keep it sharpness unless you grind it down beyond the point where it was burned.

Skiving:

I pull skive and prefer to do it standing up on a high table, usually the cutting table. I use my regular all around Tina knife after I sharpened it nicely and have my strop nearby to frequently use. I use a piece of tapered glass. I'm embarrassed to show it here, it's a double layered piece and one side is broken and taped up. I used to have a car window that worked very well. Should take a roadtrip to the junkyard sometime soon.
I basically skive left to right, my thumb is near the cutting edge, gives me great control, the angle of the blade is not perpendicular to the leather as you can see.

4006.jpg

I sometimes skive in my lap as Chris does but just in a pinch. I feel that I do not have the control with the glass plate in my lap. I have my apron on and under it my pants so there are layer that can shift and make me loose control.
The other advantage of skiving right at the cutting table is as soon as you cut a couple of pieces you know what needs to be skived and how much you want to skive. Some people cut out the pattern, put it away and not till later will they skive. If you have a lot of pieces it takes a long time to figure out what goes where and what to skive.

Lasting Pincers:

I was not aware that there are 3 sizes of lasting pincers, I have a wide and narrow one.

4007.jpg

The nickel plated ones are from Schein, http://www.schein.de/english/index.html I don't know who carries them domesticly. The ones with the red handles are a little heavier. For men's shoes I use those, for women's shoes mostly the Schein pincers.

Tool junky:

The one who dies with the most tools wins, right. Well I'm not planning on dieing any time soon. I have collected a good number of tools and related times like a couple of sewing machines that need to be fixed up. Some of it I have for parts more than anything, some I may be able to trade. If you can find it and inspect it in person you better buy it or you won't be able to find it later.
The most used tools are fairly basic, knife, lasting pliers, hammer, sewing machine. The rest it not necessary, it just makes things easier. I once took a class on traditional handcrafting shoes. Other than a sewing machine only hand tools were used. Not the easiest of things but very doable.

I think I'm mostly caught up for now. Talk to you later

Rob

(Message edited by relferink on April 22, 2006)

[dw]

Rob,

I have one of those clicker knives myself. I love it for delicate work but seldom use the prick awl. I was surprised that you use the narrow Tina to click uppers. I know that's what they are designed for but have never run across anyone who was trained in that method. Mostly I've seen clicker knives like the one below...some of which are very old.

4009.jpg

I know several makers who readily sew uppers together by hand...never using a sewing machine or any kind of machine at all. Al Saguto over at Colonial Williamsburg is one, and of course, a sometimes contributor here and an elder in the Guild. I cannot imagine it especially when you consider that June Swan has recorded 64 stitches to the inch on handwork.

He's the one that talked me through my first attempt at hand stitching an outsole with a square awl. Did it on my knee too.... Ideally the stitches should have been a little closer together...if memory serves the photo below show ten or eleven to the inch. But the most important thing is that the stitches look like little square beads and not like twists of rope. I got pretty close for first time out of the chute.

4010.jpg

But I can tell you, as interesting as stitching the outsole by hand was, I would not want to do without my 31 class Singer and my Landis 12.

BTW, the broad (third size) Schein is wider and longer than your medium. As an aside, I have to say that I have a Berg narrow jaw and the Schein narrow jaw and I can't say which I like better (although the Berg has sentimental value). I think the Schein is actually a tad narrower.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

PS...

here's a shot of the bottom of the outsole above:

4012.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[ttex]

Rob, DW and Jenny

I use my welt knife to shiv the welt ends on a shoe that is sewn in the front and pegged in the back. Janne once said he uses it to trim in hard to get places on the sole . The nr 6 knife is close to one I have. I found an even older one that has a loong tip. It is great for those hard to get to spot in front of a womens heel.

You don’t use plaster sissors?

DW
You would not believe how many clicker knife are just laying around here. I have two or three I have not done anything with yet.

Breakfast calls
CW

[dw]

Chris,

Ah...welt knives...I have two Barnsleys and a Tina (?) which are new... (contemporary) and three or four antiques of indeterminate age and origin (one Snell and Atherton, I think), plus a nice circular welt knife and two Star welt knives (old...with wood handles). I'm not bragging...honest...I can't claim any credit for their manufacture and some of them were given to me--besides, it's what you do with a tool that's important rather than how many you have. That said, I do love tools.

I use welt knives three places--around the heel to level and smooth the rhan...mostly the Star welt knives followed by a rhan file; in the shank to round and thin the outsole...both the Star and the Tina here; and after I've sewn the outsole, and pricked up the stitches, I will thin the edge of the welt to half its original thickness from the stitching to the edge...using any of the antiques or the Barnsleys, depending on what comes to hand. The trimmer (the circular trimmer on a Landis 400 line finisher) wants to put a bevel on the welt that becomes an unsightly and uneven raised lip if the welt is not thinned beforehand. Trimming still leaves a sweet bevel with the traditional "wire" just below the bevel and another at the bottom edge of the sole, bu, in my experience, it's far more regular and controllable if the welt knife is used first. The photo above shows that bevel and those wires clearly.

I'm funny about tools though...when it comes to knives, I try to keep them all sharp, and I try not to show preference ...it hurts their feelings. [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/proud.gif"%20ALT=":O[/img] So most tools get used on a regular basis...even hammers.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

DW,
That's a mighty fine piece of work. So when sewing uppers by hand, does one use a lock stitch or is there something better and stronger?

Chris,
I don't use my welt knife much, not many places I can't get to with my regular Tina. Specially once it's sharpened to a nice thin point.
I don't use plaster scissors since I don't cast with plaster much, mostly fiberglass and that cuts nicely with the hook blade. Having to force the back of a pair of scissors in there will be uncomfortable for the customer and possibly distort the mold.

Now my breakfast is calling

Rob

[dw]

Robert,

Thank you.

Just got back from breakfast...still sippin' on some southron style red tea.

You use what Al Saguto calls a "shoemaker's stitch." Which means that the thread is tapered and the taw is twisted onto bristles and then after the hole (a slit, really) is made...perfectly perpendicular to the edge of the welt...one bristle is fed in from the weltside and the other from the soleside. It takes a little fussing (for a greenhorn like myself) and a regular sequence (which I can't clearly remember right at the moment) to keep the stitches from twisting or getting offset from each other--so that you get that neat bead-like appearance. Historically, 16 stitches to the inch was considered "middling" but adequate for dress shoes. Lobbs used to be quite famous for this look after WWII...or at least it is to examples of top shelf bespoke work from this time that I have been advised to look for inspiration.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC


(Message edited by dw on April 23, 2006)

[relferink]

DW,

Did I understand you correctly before that some makers do not use sewing machines. I was more curious to the type of stitch used for uppers. I would assume it is sewn with a needle but I don't think you want to feed 2 needles, on from each side through the same hole to get the shoemaker's stitch. Any thought on this?

For the welts to get a consistent look on the beats it takes lots of practice, something I haven not had and truthfully it's been at least 10 years since I hand sewn a welt to the outsole. I should be ashamed of myself not keeping that up.
The main thing I find is that you really have to stop thinking about what you are doing. What I mean by that is that you have to feed the bristle in the same way each stitch, pull it through and feed it back in the same way, as soon as I start thinking about what I'm doing I end up feeding the bristle slightly different and the stitches will look twisted. The length of the thread is important to, to long and to much material has to travel through the hole, to short and, well you can figure that one out.

Wow, I'm surprising myself how much of it I still remember, I just never had the chance to do it regularly. The basics are there, from here on it it requires a couple of hundred pairs to practice on and than another thousand pairs to become proficient.

Rob

[dw]

Robert,

I think it is Rees who talks about doing "64 to the inch"...using a awl so fine that upon piercing the base of his thumb, he neither bled nor felt any pain. And, if I remember correctly, he used hairs from his daughter's head in lieu of bristles. Presumably this means that he was indeed feeding the bristles in from each side. I have quite a few of the old texts but all I have is a hard-to-read photocopy of Rees, so I can't tell you much more than that. June Swan had a write up (in the Crispin Courier?) of the several pairs of "64 to the inch" boots she recorded while head curator at Northhampton. Al...if he's not in Hungary or Lower Elbonia ...could probably tell you more. As I understand it, however, all that pre-19th century upper stitching was done by hand and was done with a shoemakers stitch and a very fine sewing awl and bristles...unless of course it was stitching or embroidering on cloth upppers such as were common for both men's and women's shoes.

The last time (and only time) I did the outsoles by hand was in 2002...as you can tell by the time stamped photos. It was an interesting experiment and if it were economically feasible--and, more importantly, I could get some training from a master...so I wouldn't embarrass myself--I would probably do it all the time. I like the look and I particularly like the way that the sole can be finished using a "horizontal" channel. Nothing sweeter than that.

As I recall (talk about surprising yourself with obscure memories) I ended up snugging the weltside stitch down and then pulling the bottom thread up in such a way as to keep it positioned square in the "slit." But I've seen old illustrations where the author recommends putting a twist (lock) in the thread and using a certain sequence to ensure proper positioning. I never could get that to work for me, though.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC