One "Last" Question

[lancepryor]

Courtney:

The forefoot will not be symmetrical -- if you have the center of the last's toe in front of the 2nd toe, the outside portion of the last will be wider than the inside portion. Ultimately, the decision regarding toe shape and location is a combination of aesthetics and fit, and the latter is of course a function of the particular foot for which the last is made. The center of the toe can be anywhere, with the constraint that you don't want to 'clip' the toes too much. It is traditional for the last to be 2 sizes, i.e. 2/3 inch, longer than the longest toe. Again, however, this measure is up to the last maker and will also be a function of toe shape, a very narrow toe (e.g. those in a cowboy boot) will often require more space in front of the toes. Too long a toe can lead to creasing of the vamp, or so I have been told.

Here is a picture of the bottom of a last I made, with the 'foot imprint' in paper, and the ultimate toe shape I was shooting for drawn in on the bottom (this picture was before I worked on the bottom of the last). You can see the center of the toe is probably in line with the junction of the first and second toes.

12862.jpg

Here is the picture of the finished last -- looks pretty good, I think.

12863.jpg

Note that this last had a toe that extended more than 2 sizes past the end of the foot, more like 3 sizes most likely.

Lance

[courtney]

Oh man! so sorry, First time using my wifes camera and my computer is uploading differently.

Courtney

[courtney]

Thanks Lance,

That was helpfull.

Here are some photos of my lasts and my proposed toe shape. Please tell me what you guys think.

I know you might not think I need that space by my little toe but it freaks me out if it feels confined.

Hopefully these are understandable.

Courtney

12872.jpg

12873.jpg

12874.jpg

12875.jpg

[dw]

Courtney,

Well...just for the record, I think centering a commercial last on the second toe is wrong. I think it ought to be centered on the L(ine) O(f) M(uscular) A(action) [LOMA] or roughly between the first and second. I think that you're gonna clip your big toe a little.

Just my

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[courtney]

Thanks D.W.,

Heres what Golding says,
At the very bottom of the page.

12877.png

And, if I wanted to make a toe like these wouldnt it be better to do it through the middle of the second toe?

12878.jpg

I dont want to clip my big toe! You think I should move it out towards the tracing like I did with my little toe?

Thanks for the help.

Courtney

[lancepryor]

Courtney:

Here are a few observations -- take them as you will.

First, it is helpful to think about 2 separate, but related, shapes -- the insole/feather edge, and the 'border' of the last (the widest part). The border is above the feather edge, typically say 1/2 inch, depending on where on the last one is talking about.

The insole shape should generally map to the bottom of the foot, i.e. what you get when you do an imprint or trace with the pencil held at a 30 degree angle to the paper. The border should correspond to the outline of the foot, made by tracing the foot with the pencil held perpendicular to the paper (making sure to take into account the thickness of the pencil).

I assume your drawing shows just the insole shape you are shooting for.

If that is correct, then generally speaking, the widest point of the insole should be at the joints. To my eye, it looks as if both the inside and outside 'joints' of the insole are forward of your foot's joints. This may allow your foot to slide forward in the shoe, mashing your toes. I would like to see the insole start to turn toward the center at the joints, rather than so far forward. Also, I know what you said about your little toe, but the insole is not the same as the 'border' of the last -- I should think you could cut the insole a bit in at the toes while leaving the border of the last a bit wider, thus providing a better fit while still not clipping your toes. Note that your toes where they touch the ground are well inside of the extreme margin of your foot. Personally, I would also 'clip' the big toe a little bit; this would allow you to get a better match of the insole to your inside joint and perhaps make a bit more elegant forefoot.

Your last also has a very 'vertical' side wall, even all the way out to the toe. This is unnecessary, since your toes don't go that far forward. For something like a penny loafer this style of last may be good, but for most lace-up shoes a toe which gradually curves down may be better.

Finally, if your picture shows the border of your last accurately, it appears the border is well inside that of your foot tracing at some points -- e.g. the medial joint and the waist. This might make for an uncomfortable fit, depending how fleshy your foot is.

Lance

[courtney]

Thanks Lance, I'm trying to understand what you said so here goes,

"First, it is helpful to think about 2 separate, but related, shapes -- the insole/feather edge, and the 'border' of the last (the widest part). The border is above the feather edge, typically say 1/2 inch, depending on where on the last one is talking about."

-I dont understand.

"I assume your drawing shows just the insole shape you are shooting for."

-Yes, the green pencil with the toe impressions show the pedigraph, the green wobbily outline is the tracing with pencil upright, the purple line shows my proposed toe shape, ignore the waist though I just sketched it on, the lasts right now have build ups through that area to accomodate the orthotics I'm trying to get in there.



"If that is correct, then generally speaking, the widest point of the insole should be at the joints. To my eye, it looks as if both the inside and outside 'joints' of the insole are forward of your foot's joints. This may allow your foot to slide forward in the shoe, mashing your toes. I would like to see the insole start to turn toward the center at the joints, rather than so far forward. Also, I know what you said about your little toe, but the insole is not the same as the 'border' of the last -- I should think you could cut the insole a bit in at the toes while leaving the border of the last a bit wider, thus providing a better fit while still not clipping your toes. Note that your toes where they touch the ground are well inside of the extreme margin of your foot. Personally, I would also 'clip' the big toe a little bit; this would allow you to get a better match of the insole to your inside joint and perhaps make a bit more elegant forefoot."

-That green marks coming off the outside of my tracing show the joints of my foot, I know the "joints" of my insole are wider and more forward but my toes are like that. Wouldnt I have to tottally cut off my little toe to chanmge that?
I still dont get how the border is different from insole?


"Finally, if your picture shows the border of your last accurately, it appears the border is well inside that of your foot tracing at some points -- e.g. the medial joint and the waist. This might make for an uncomfortable fit, depending how fleshy your foot is. "

-The bottom two pictures show the alignment of my last how it is now with the centerline drawn down it and how it matches up with my proposed insole (toe shape) Is that what you were talking about?

Thanks again, I hope this is becoming clearer.

Courtney

[andre]

Lance,
very nice last. What kind of style is it meant for?
How long does it take you to grind the last down?
Again, very beautiful work, for me this looks really great. Would it be possible to post a photo where we can see the borders better?
Andre

[dw]

Courtney,

If you don't mind me saying so, I think that the whole idea of trying to align the center of the toe of the last with a line drawn through the second toe of the foot is a red herring, Golding notwithstanding.

Unless you are carving your own lasts from scratch, all lasts will be different in the relationship of the center of the toe to the socketing of the medial ball--where the footprint at the medial ball sits relative to the featherline at the medial ball of the last.

If you set out to position the last such that a line drawn through the second toe intercepts the center of the toe of the last, you will have, by necessity, ignored factors and issues that are far more important to proper fit. You will perforce have fundamentally ignored the foot.

As an example, try doing such an alignment with a Munson last.

And given your photos above, if you were to make a (relatively) pointed boot using this formula, you would not only clip your big toe badly, the boot would look strange.

Feet are not symmetrical, any attempt to make the last symmetrical is a recipe for disaster, in my book.

All of my boot lasts line up on the LOMA when the last is positioned to cover the pedographic footprint at the medial joint...on a normal foot. But that's characteristic of this model. And perhaps this model only.

All of my shoe lasts, which derived from my boot lasts (with major shape and contour modifications) may indeed line up with a line through the second toe. But that is to be expected since I added material to the model on the lateral side of the toe--thus shifting the location of the center of the toe.

If you follow my thinking here, it is easy to see that any center point on the toe of almost any commercial or pre-made last is completely arbitrary...subject, as it is, to all kinds of factors from original design considerations (Munsons, narrow toed boot lasts, etc.)to after-the-fact modifications.

When I fit up a foot...choosing the last and making the modification...I observe the relationship of the toe of the last to the LOMA. But I am not held hostage to it. And if other factors...even privileged knowledge about the design goals of the original modelmaker... suggest that I cannot rely on any real congruency, I ignore the supposed relationship.

Again, it is a mistake, IMO, to let the last dictate the relationship to the foot...the foot must come first.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[courtney]

D.W., thanks.
I think your right, I just put my finger between the 1st and second toes on the round toed shoes I'm wearing right now and draged it to the end of the toe and it was right in the center.

Also if I pull a piece of tape down the center of my last it ends up pretty much where you said.

So, whats Golding on about then?

Courtney

[courtney]

Oh yeah, Lance, so is the border the wall of the last? I still dont understand what you were saying about cutting the insole a little and leaving the border wider.

Courtney

[lancepryor]

Courtney:

I'll try to explain again. In many ways, the last is a replica of the foot. If you look at your foot, the part that touches the ground is NOT the widest part of your foot. From the part of your foot that touches the ground, the foot goes up and out before turning back in toward the middle -- i.e. the foot is concave from where it touches the ground to some point higher up on the foot. Look at the your big toe -- it is sort of circular in cross section, so the 'margin' or most medial part of the toe is above the ground, not where the toe touches the ground. If you think about how this feature is handled in a shoe last, typically the insole (i.e. where your foot touches the bottom of the shoe/'the ground') is not as wide as the last is a bit higher up, because the side wall of the last is concave above the insole. So, it is this widest part that I call the last 'border.'

Thus, when one thinks about the last and its comparison to the foot, the insole should correspond where the foot touches the ground (i.e. the imprint or the tracing when the pencil is held at say a 30 degree angle), whereas the 'border' of the last should correspond to the tracing of the foot, since the border is the widest part of the last and the tracing will, by its very nature, reflect the widest part of the foot.

The location vertically of the last border will vary as you move along the last from toe to heel, and will also be different for the medial and lateral sides of the last.

Here is a picture of a last from the heel view -- note how the side wall is concave, and the 'feather edge' of the last (where the insole will end) is inside of the widest part of the last.

12893.jpg

Here are two pictures of the 'border' location of my bespoke lasts -- the border height is shown in black.

12894.jpg

12895.jpg

Hope that helps make sense of my earlier comments.

Lance

[courtney]

Thanks Lance.
That definatly makes it clear. Hopefully that will be of use to me, I believe it will.

I hate not having my toe taper from the lateral joint but I hate my little toe feeling confined even more.

Thanks again.
Courtney

[janne_melkersson]

I don't know if this link already have been posted somewhere else on the forum but here is a guy who make lasts seriously. You aint a shoemaker until you can make a pair of lasts of a square block of wood, just kidding!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7NW2wKQJFY&feature=more_related

the video quallity is bad but it is a joy to watch him

Janne

[goatman]

I've got one pair of lasts to do a repair on my boots. There is a label on them that says 9 1/2 C.

My boots are 10 1/2 D, but the lasts won't fit into them! I tore the boots apart today so that I can re-sole and heel them, and took a look at what they look like when the insole is put on the last. it looks like I will have to grind the last down on both sides in the tread area and both sides of the heel. Part of that includes the metal heel plate.

My question is whether this is normal or not.

I understand that you folks build up the last with leather and/or bondo and I will have to build up the toe considerably to fit the last to the present toe of the boots (2/3 of an inch, 2 sizes), but should I grind them down on the sides?

I am under the impression that a C width is not as wide as a D width, so why wouldn't they be too narrow for the insole instead of being too wide, and why wouldn't the C width fit inside the boot when it was all together? These are a Factory-made boot, so I would think they were made on a generic 10 1/2D last!

I only have this one pair, so I'm thinking that if I grind them down, they will be fit to my foot size forever, but at the same time, I don't know if I will get the right contours, etc. on them if I grind them down. I know before I grind them, I have to measure the last to see that the instep, heel, etc. will be correct, so I'm not ready to grind them down right away - I just want to get my ducks in a row before I ruin a good pair of boot lasts </;^)

Any advice, ideas, etc? Oh, and buying another pair is not part of the equation, it's beyond my financial means at this juncture.

(Message edited by goatman on March 11, 2011)

(Message edited by goatman on March 11, 2011)

[romango]

Jim,

You can't trust size measurements on lasts to correspond to your particular size. There are several systems of sizing (US, English, French German etc).

Even within those measurement systems there can be variations. It really gets down to the last factory puts whatever size on the last that their customer asks for.

If you are down to the insole on your boot, try to get a trace of the bottom pattern and compare that to the last, for a start. Adjust the bottom of the last to your insole trace. Then adjust the girth measurements to your feet.

Hope this helps, Rick

[dw]

Jim,

Rick is spot on in all regards.

I would add, however, that the most critical dimension is the heel-to-ball length/measurement.

You mention wanting to add to the toe...which immediately should alert you to the fact that the last is too short for the length of your foot or, at the very least, shorter than the last that was originally used.

It is understandable that you might think to increase that length at the toe end, but, in fact, if the original last used was even close to standard proportions, the real deficiency in length is in the heel to ball measurement--which suggests that a better way to go would be to build up the heel rather than the toe.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[goatman]

Thanks Rick and DW;

@ Rick
I guess what I was asking was in agreement with your assessment of the lasts - now I understand the reason why they don't seem to fit the "ideal" of 9 1/2C LOL. When I was writing about checking the insole to the last, I was doing pretty much just as you suggest, I actually nailed the insole to the last. I will have to replace the insoles on these boots anyway, because the wear is through the insoles as well. (I try to get every penny's worth out of my boots <|;^) ).

Of course, now that I am going to learn to repair my own boots, I won't wear them out so far as these are. By nailing the insole to the last, that is how I am guessing that I will have to grind down the sides of the tread area and the heel area to be able to fit the same size pattern of the insole.

So, by your comments, I'm assuming that you have confirmed my suspicion that I will have to grind down the last and try to replicate the contours of the last that it presently has.

I watched your videos on your website. Do you go to Capellas in Eugene much? I think I saw you there when I was visiting my son in Junction City!

@DW

I guess I should have elaborated more thoroughly on what I meant by adding to the toe - I will have to narrow the toe some to fit these boots, and add about 3/4" or so on to the toe end for the pointed toe as opposed to actually lengthening the toe end of the last. That said, however, I appreciate you pointing out that I should make sure to check the heel to ball measurement before proceeding further. I will be doing some measuring in the next day or so in order to give you some more information before I go any further. Your advice has got me to thinking that if the ball-to-heel measurement isn't correct, that would probably affect the arch and instep areas, which would cause no end of problems .... thanks, good advice!

I have a CD with this old book in PDF format - The Manufacture Of Boots And Shoes: Being A Modern Treatise Of All The Processes Of Making And Manufacturing Footgear - by F. Y. Golding - can I use the measuring instructions that Golding uses as guidelines, and how much was an inch in England in 1902? I really like this book I've got a lot of others on this CD as well, but the downside is that I don't understand a lot of the British cultural terms (Colloquialisms?) in relation to American terms. I almost think I need a translator some times.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's too cold here in my part of Montana to work out in what I jokingly refer to as the 'shop' in a 1908-built Saloon so I am sharing the laundry room in our mobile home and the surface of the wash machine (for a workbench) with my wife. Of course, since it's the laundry room, she has first priority, and I've got to suck hind tit! Come June or so when the snow melts, I will be able to set up in the shop - the Summers here are almost as hot as the Winters are cold!

I will be able to work on these boots little by little, and when I get my "last" problem taken care of, I will post questions in the appropriate threads rather than crap this thread with non-last questions.

I recently found out that there are several boot-makers in Montana, but they are all too far away to visit, so I' guess I'll jost learn by trial and error (probably more error than trial) LOL.

Thanks to you both!

[goatman]

{ By Jan-Erik Melkersson on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 06:10 am: Edit Post

I don't know if this link already have been posted somewhere else on the forum but here is a guy who make lasts seriously. You aint a shoemaker until you can make a pair of lasts of a square block of wood, just kidding!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7NW2wKQJFY&feature=more_related

the video quallity is bad but it is a joy to watch him

Janne}

Great Video Janne, Thanks!

[elfn]

I finished the second pair of fitters this morning and overall, I'm very pleased. They aren't fashionable, but they do tell me how I'm doing getting my lasts adjusted. I initially thought I would need to narrow the toe box but they're just right. As to overall fit, the right shoe is perfect. There is nothing I would change about the fit of the right shoe. The left, though close, isn't quite perfect. My left heel slides up and down just a little and the shoe is a tiny bit short. I occasionally feel the end of the shoe with my left middle toe. Once I fix these two issues, I think I will have great fitting shoes.

I want to add a little to the height of both lasts at the top front of the cone. I think the fit would benefit from having that part of the shoe cut ½" higher.

My next pair of shoes will be a "real" pair with pig skin lining and 4oz outer leather. I'm not saying I won't wear the fitters. I will. The first pair will work great as house shoes and I've already been running around outside in the second pair. They're not pretty, but otherwise they're great; light and supportive without being rigid. I've added the pair of supports out of my dress clogs to keep my knees and hips comfortable. Picture me happy.

Ultimately, I want to reshape the lasts so the supports can be built right into the shoes. When I get the lasts perfect, I'll make a mold and recast them in the final shape. That will give me a clean feather edge, something that would make the process of creating shoes on the lasts easier.

Nori

(Message edited by elfn on March 20, 2011)

[goatman]

DW,

I checked the ball-to-heel measurement, and it is good - the lasts actually conform almost perfectly to a drawing of my foot (the drawing is about 1/4" shorter ...... After doing a little bit of touch-up to the instep measurements so that the waist, instep, and short and long heel measurements conform to the foot measurements, I only have to change the round toe to a pointed toe, adding about 3/4" on to the tip of the last, so that it conforms to the tip on the boots .... that way I'm not lasting the tip of the toe in thin air! My thanks to you and Rick for your help!

[kemosabi]

Friends,
I'm thinking of giving last making a try and wondering if the "last Guru's" can have a look at my plan so far and tell me what you think. These proportions are based on the Sabbage Sectionizer.

Hope these images make sense (sorry for maybe not the best quality). These are drawn to scale and represent how I would generate the top and side cutting templates.

Regards, and thank you for your time.
-Nat

13548.jpg

13549.jpg

[kemosabi]

Note:
Scale top drawing: 1 section = 1 square
Scale bottom drawing: 1 section = 2 squares

Thx,
-Nat

[romango]

Looks pretty good to me!

[kemosabi]

Thanks Rick. You're one of the Gurus I was hoping to hear from.

I'm fuzzy on how to position the island as viewed from the top. I know the forward tip is located at section-5 and the rear is determined by the heel curve at the back. This gives me "y" axis length, but I still don't know "x" axis center/width or "z" axis rotation.

For example;
This image shows my guess at proper orientation. (Island aligned with "y" axis, guessing at "x" and zero 'z'

13551.jpg

Here it is with "z" rotation:

13552.jpg

Any ideas how to determine these proportions and angles?

-Nat