One "Last" Question

[das]

I must say I'm with Janne here 100%. All the architecture of the orthotic ought better be contoured into the bottom of the last for the same effect without added inserts, which only complicate matters, slip and slide, or take up too much room making the shoes too tight. This is, however, very "old school" thinking, but then so is making bespoke leather soled, stitched shoes

[last_maker]

D.A. & Janne,

I totally agree with you guys.
It doesn't make sence to me to make footwear that isn't supportive. if you are going to go through the trouble and time to make a pair of shoes they outa fit right or may as well just go down to the store and buy a pair of costume shoes instead of custom.

With this thought, It is how I got into making physiological lasts starting with the cast of a foot, where the archetecture of the bottom of the foot remains but the rest of the last is in all intence and purposes looks and performs like a last. This isn't the arnie Davis way!!! which in the wrong hands makes really ugly shpaed shoes.

Courtney, have you tried to duplicate your last as we discussed in february. Then perahaps you could place chalk on your insole(orthotics) and pair it up to your last. and carve out where the calk marks and touches the underside of your last. This is a rather limping way to do it, and not my perfered methods, because for me, it is easier to start with the volume of the foot and make a last from there, but short of knowing how to make a last, and especially how to transform a foot model into a last, if you do a chalk pairing method the top portion is already formed for you, and your question is only about the bottom at least this way you can sort of duplicate it.

Oh yah, about the spring release in the last, do not use a spring last for this as your medial side would need to much alteration and would "bite" into the spring. I would use a scoop last for this process.

I know where you can get physological lasts, you can contact me further at info@lastmakingschool.com to find out where.

-marlietta
http://lastmakingschool.com/history-of-Lastmaking-.htm

(Message edited by Last_maker on October 10, 2010)

[last_maker]

Courtney,

heres an idea. Now I am only shooting from ideas, Last spring I was entertaining the idea of using a copy carver. didn't get around to it much.

You could use one of these to Copy your last by sinking it into some foot impression foam about half way down longitudinal way and put a follower on one side and your existing last on the otherside. Of course it could also be water clay. You just need something to hold your last steady while you copy it. Only copy to the high line. Then you could flip it over and do the other side.
here is some links:http://www.chainsawsculptors.com/saburr/Index.htm
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2525576
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUM13FYNZJA

Then when it came to duplicating the planter surface, your could press the top of your last into the impression foam to hold it level, do the same for the planter surface of your slipper cast foot model and instead of duplicating the existing last you have, you replace it for your slipper cast model to be copied on the planter of your last you are making. Using the copy carver you could copy all the archetecture of the planter surface that is on your slipper cast.

I have never combined systems like this, but it might work. although you can get plans for these for under $20.00 the materials I hear cost around $100 to aquire.

As far as wood:

here is a lot of FREE... maple and hard wood available through Craigs list.

If you are going to use a felled tree though, ask if it was grown in clay, sand or loose soil. In order for maple to be hard as a rock, it must grow in hard to grow area such a a packed rock, clay or clay and rock soil. You can make a softer wood hardend like maple by soaking it in a wood petrifying solution. You can look up this recipie on line. You will need a potters kiln to make the petrofiying action take hold. the degree of temp you bring it up to will determine the hardness.

When usiing a tree service, you can request them to cut the rounds in a certain length during their felling process.

Developing a good relationship with them by cleaning up the felled tree mess will insure you an ample supply of last making medium.

When using this wood for last making, cut it in a coffin shape. and begin your last making from that point. See golding V, I.


Well that is my second two bits. Maybe more helpful than the first??


Marlietta Schock
http://lastmakingschool.com/classes/Intermediate%20Last%20Making.htm

[jask]

Thanks for the picture Courtney. I have a few thoughts but first a few questions; the orthotics appears to have a subortholene body- if you rub the round area on the heel next to the sticker with your fingernail can you mark it or does your nail just slide over the surface? If you flip the orthotic right side up, how thick is the orthotic at the center of the heel? approximately?
The orthotics appear to have been built for a 3/8- 1/2" heel height, but your last(from the photo) appears to have very little heel height. If this is the case your orthotics will be uncomfortable in any shoes that are lower than a 3/8" heel unless you modify them. ( hopefully I am wrong and it is just the camera angle creating this impression...)
Your first photo is a very good illustration of how the orthotic stays under the functional weight bearing areas of the foot, the red line I assume is the vertical tracing of your last? Most footwear is built on a last that will accommodate the most feet in that size range, as a result you have people with the narrowest heels sliding side to side and people with the widest heels being "pinched"- although that is pretty rare! The point is that most shoes have enough volume to easily accommodate a well made orthotic, and the manufacturer is able to make further adjustments to fit it.
If you have made a set of shoes off of this last try fitting the orthotics in the shoes and see if they are too tight and where they need adjustment.
so... some pointers:
pull out any footbed that is in RTW shoes if you are wearing your orthotics- they are just competing for the same space not helping your foot. pull the footbed out and place it on the bottom of the orthotic, use it as a pattern to see if the general shape of the two are the same- you may find the front of the orthotic needs to be trimmed to fit properly in your toebox.
I find that folding the forefoot "tongue" back on the rigid part of the orthotic then slipping it into the shoe, positioning it and than using my fingers to roll forward the folded back section is easier than trying to force a floppy "tongue" up inside the toebox.
Make sure the heel of the orthotic is all the way back and does not slide excessively from side to side ( very rare )and look at the front of the medial arch to see if the rigid section of the orthotic is stretching out the leather of the shoe, I doubt this will be a problem it looks as if your orthotics are well undercut in this area.however if the orthotic does not sit down on the footbed, and hangs up on the sides it will need to be trimmed.
completely loosen the laces before putting on the shoe then lace to allow for the new fit.
Orthotics that extend forward under the metatarsal heads can make make tight shoes very uncomfortable -stretching or going up a half size may be in order.IN some cases I have removed the neoprene topcover and replaced it witha thin layer of leather or vinyl to create a 3/4 length orthotic for slip on dress shoes, this requires usually adding a spot of glue or double sided tape under the heel of the orthotics.

[courtney]

Thanks guys, Jan, D.A.,
How would I rebuild the last to the cast of my feet? Are there any books that show how to do that? I wouldnt have any idea how to do that.

Marlietta, I havent tried to duplicate the lasts yet but thanks for your help on that previously, Thanks for your current advice too, Sounds pretty complicated though, but at least its something to ponder.

Jask, the round part is hard plastic, maybe the thickness might be 1/8" The orthotics were just cast with my feet sticking out from the chair with no heel hight, my lasts have 1/2" heel.
The drawing shows last bottom in dark pencil, The orthotic with the pencil angled underneath in green, and the orth traced with pencil vertical in red. Getting em in the RTW's dosent seem to be a problem.

I appreciate the input so far, still dont feel like I have a clue what to do though.

Please any more info greatly appreciated, D.A., & Jan sounds like you guys might have some good ideas, could you elaborate?

Thanks so much, any more input from anybody would be super helpfull I'm sure.

Courtney

[jask]

The heel height is built into the modified casts that the orthotics are made on, if you flip the casts sole down on the bench and level out the flat section at the metatarsal heads you will see the heel is elevated relative to the forefoot.
The quickest and easiest way I can think of to modify your lasts is to either mold a piece of plastic to the casts you have or remove the top cover from your orthotics and use them as a go/no-go gauge to remove material from the sole of your last. The advantage of molding a new piece of plastic is that you could use a clear material like PETG or vivak that would allow you to see how the contact pattern was changing as you modify the last.If your orthotics person does not have any of this material I can send you a few blanks if they are willing to mold them for you.

[courtney]

Jask, Thanks,
I just cant seem to visualize really what my goal is exactly.

Do you have a picture of a last that has had the bottom modified?

After the last bottom is modified do you have to build a footbed that would basically be an orthotic?

Sorry, I am having a hard time grasping this stuff.

I havent seen mention of doing anything to the bottom of the lasts in any books I've read.

Courtney

(Message edited by courtney on October 10, 2010)

[courtney]

Does Koloeff say anything about the bottom of the last that would help me?

[janne_melkersson]

Courtney,

"Thanks guys, Jan, D.A.,
How would I rebuild the last to the cast of my feet?"

The same way as when you build a last to fit all other measurements like the ball, instep, long and/or short heel. Sometimes you have to grind away wood another time you need to add. The thing is that when making bespoke footwear the bottom of the last should correspond to the bottom of the feet the same way as the rest of the last should correspond to the feet.


"Are there any books that show how to do that? I wouldnt have any idea how to do that"

I don't know but you should find something at the HCC library about it. Or you can find a maker who offers courses which probably would be the best deal for you.

Janne

[courtney]

Thanks Janne,

I understand how to get the regular measurements for the foot ball, waist, etc. All you have to do is wrap the tape measure around the foot.

But, how would You get the bottom?

Thanks again,
Courtney

[dw]

Like the proverbial horse in the malting shed, I'm gonna stick my nose in here where it doesn't belong.

I'm no expert--I do this as seldom as I can get away with and both Janne and Al have the best of the argument.

That said, one simple way to approach this is to strap the orthotic to your foot with masking tape and take your measurements again. Build the last up over the cone and forefoot to accommodate those altered measurements. A short heel measurement with the orthotic in place is critical here.

Build a fitter's model from a mean forme derived from the modified last and allowing for a higher heel stiffener.

This will work if you think it through and take into consideration all the variable you are introducing--such as the need for a higher heel stiffener.

It may not be classically pretty but it will work.

The other approach is simply to ask your doctor for a cast of the plantar surface of the foot...while it is being held in the position he wants it (sometimes, simple manipulations such as twisting the knee can alter the plantar surface of the foot, ie. raise the arch, etc.). This cast needs to be without the orthotic...just a cast of the foot. (Your photo above seems to be a cast of the foot plus the orthotic...not much use to you in this context)

Then begin building up the last such that the topography of the plantar surface of the last models the plantar topography of the foot. Adjust your measurements by grinding away on the dorsal surface...or where ever it seems appropriate....of the last to compensate for any build-ups on the bottom of the last.

Part of the problem is that I suspect the doctor did not take the heel height of the last into consideration when he made the orthotic. If he could do that, you could make a negative casting of his casting and check your last work against it.

Just some ideas....


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[janne_melkersson]

Courtney,
Ok, I will try to explain, but a very short version, how I do it.

To start with I suggest you to ask a friend to make a new foot imprint with the pen in vertical possition around the foot. From ball to ball and around the heel put the pen in a 45 degree angel. There you have your base.

Now you have to sculpture the last according to the marks of the pen. When the last lines up on both lines from the pen/pencil then you are pretty close.

Simple as that one could say but I'm afraid it isn't. You will see that depending on many things, which we can talk about another time, you will have to adjust this according to the client you are about to build a last for. But the golden rule is, trust your imprint, tape and measurement.

ps
I use a pen for the footimprint and a pencil when checking the last on the imprint. It is easy rub out the marks from the pencil.

[janne_melkersson]

I should add that the way I describe it abowe is how it is or was done in the orthopeadic trade. When making bespoke shoes there is not often a cleint need a footbed but if so this is the way I do it.

When making a bespoke last I don't draw the line around the heel mostly it is enough with the pen in 45 degree in the medial side from the middle of heelbone to the ball.

[last_maker]

Janne,

In responce to your post:

"Thanks guys, Jan, D.A.,
How would I rebuild the last to the cast of my feet?"

The same way as when you build a last to fit all other measurements like the ball, instep, long and/or short heel. Sometimes you have to grind away wood another time you need to add. The thing is that when making bespoke footwear the bottom of the last should correspond to the bottom of the feet the same way as the rest of the last should correspond to the feet.


"Are there any books that show how to do that? I wouldnt have any idea how to do that"

I don't know but you should find something at the HCC library about it.

Or you can find a maker who offers courses which probably would be the best deal for you".





Last making school does just that, offers courses in last making that teaches individuals how to make lasts that have the plantar surface replicated just as courtney is wanting.

Courteny, you can contact me for further info regarding this if your intersted.

D.W. I like your suggestion. It would make the shoe deeper, but it would also allow Courtney to utilize his orthotics made by a professional. many of these have what they call postings that stabilize the foot. It is more than just simulating the plantar surface, it is also a way to stablize the foot and body mechanics. Technically speaking, if one doesn't understand body mechanics, or know what they are doing, regarding this plantar surface balancing, they could cause hip pain instead of foot pain. It is a funny balancing act those feet are.

Marlietta Schock
http://lastmakingschool.com/classes/Intermediate%20Last%20Making.htm

[donrwalker]

Courtney

I am a pedorthist and boot maker. I admire your desire to make your own footwear, but what you are trying to do is difficult even with training and experience. Trying to do it over the internet is in my opinion not only hopeless but possibly hazardess to your sanity if not your health. It is possible to harm your joints doing this incorrectly.

Don

[paul]

Marlietta,

Thank you for contributing your words to our Colloquy.
But when are you ever going to show us pictures of your work with lasts?

I keep clicking your link to see what it is you're doing for $5000 and there are still no pictures.
Surely it's not a secret, you're so generous with your input. Maybe you could have some of your students (are there any on the Colloquy?) post pictures with their smart phones of lasts they've made.

I for one, would really like to see your work, after all this time.

I don't mean to be confrontational at all, and I sure don't intend any disrepect, but
"Curious minds want to see", if you know what I mean.

With Regards,
Paul

[last_maker]

Paul, thanks for your promting.It is nice to hear from you!! ;0)

I was asked a while back to post pics of my lasts. I responded with I will post soon. And then I was contacted by the moderator asking not to as that would look like self promotion. As you know it is the rules and rags of this forum is not to self promote because of the non profit type of forum.

The Schock physological lasts are not feet with toe boxes on them,like many of you guys have been taught, they are lasts that have gone through the regular last making process, accept for the fact they have a replicated plantar surface.

I love contributing to the forum. So, I don't want to step on any "toes" here. So If someone could tell me how these courious minds could be satisfied such as paul and the other person who asked earilier, I would be more than happy to post pics.

I belive i will need to get permission from the moderator because of the rules and the non profit statis and the rules of non self promotion. If I get permission of such, I will post away!!! However, what I am courious about is many of you boot and shoe makers post pics of your "just finished" boot or shoe projects, Is posting pics of my schock physological lasts that I have just finished which have the exact replication of the plantar surface of an individual any different??? Just courious

Please inform/enlighten me. Thanks.

On the other note of the price you mention. It is an intensive course that is the equivalant of one years worth of a college course in last making. it is a 200 hour course condenced into three weeks. It is designed with boot and shoe makers from around the world in mind. Those who can't stay in snohomish washington for a year. You work hard,you learn lots,and go home with tools to make both regular lasts and the schock physological last.

I will talk to my students to ask them if they would be willing to post pics of thier work as well. I just need to get past this stepping on the forums rules, toes-feet thing

I did not take your request as a confentational thing at all. If I were in your "shoes" I would be asking the same thing.

-Marlietta
http://lastmakingschool.com/classes/Intermediate%20Last%20Making.htm

[last_maker]

Don,

Well Said!!!!

-Marlietta
http://lastmakingschool.com/classes/Intermediate%20Last%20Making.htm

[jask]

Courtney I do not recall, did I ask if you have already made shoes on these lasts? how do they fit? can you fit the orthotics in them?

[paul]

Marlietta,

I was actually refering to your web page.

Since you put your web page up, a couple of years ago, and began inviting students, on at least three of the forums I frequent, there have been no pictures.

It's this unique approach to marketing that puzzles me. How do you convince prospects to envision what they could learn for that amount of money?
How can anyone who has some level of familiarity with lasts, be convinced that for $5000, you have anything to offer that is superior to the years that it takes to learn to modify lasts to fit a given customers feet?

Now I'm starting to feel confrontational, something I didn't want, so I'll quit here.

However, I do understand there is still room on Sunday for presentations at the Annual HCC Gathering. Maybe you could do a show and tell, and therefore gain a whole different level of credibility.

Paul

[last_maker]

Paul,

I appreciate your insight and review. If you would like, you may contact me or call, and we can talk. I promise I won't bite.

-Marlietta

[last_maker]

A simple coment here.

It takes a special interest in a trade to be good at it. I belive with that interest comes the compulsion to work long hours with in the trade. Acting and studying with in such compulsion imparts one a unique skill. This skill does not make one better, or superior, it simply makes them practiced at thier craft. Some of us discover short cuts, others invent new concepts and applications but collectively we share what we have discovered with each other.

There are some concepts best left to discover on a face to face basis. I belive last making is one of those concepts. Some bootmaking techniques, although self study can be done, are also best left to a face to face experience. Those interested in ped orthy, definitly should not be a self study with out guidence. and I don't belive any one would want to go to a pediatrist who simply got thier licence from the college of photoshop and a printer. Is the sharer of the information a Master of all? Are they more superior than another whom they are sharing with who has also a special interst in thier sec of the trade? One whos years of experience makes them an amazing craftsmen? Is this sharer of thier skill a better person? No. Not at all. A podiatrist is required to do continueing education and a certain hours of hands on face to face seminars, a boot and shoe maker learns more by studing from different people thier skills and crafts than studying alone. I belive even after years of practiced tradesmen ship one still can have more to learn. Learning is growing in our craft. Gathering information from each other and new concepts allows us to collectively gain skills not as easily gain individually. I belive when we stop learning, stop asking, we stagnate. Even after 7 years in the trade, Every day that I study and apply, I learn how vast the subject of footwear is and how much more I have to learn.
At the crispen site as we share information, we collectively salvage gold nuggets for future interested parties to begin. If one sits down and reads all the posts,it is like the best book on footwear ever. I love this concept. But the fact remains that some skill sets are best introduced face to face.

I for one, began my interest in footwear with reading the crispen colloquy site. I read every single post in the current and archive. Hungry for information, I gleaned read and studied the site and then didn't stop there, I went on to study other places and To apply the knowlege I learned. As I say, the subject of footwear is vast and there is always more to learn, more resources to investigate and more skills to incorporate, tools if you will, in our everyday skill set in this working trade.

Modern writers such as Tyme Skryme with his shoes and sandles books & D.W. with his boot making books are a wonderful modern addition to this trade . I wish we had more. It is anoying that past people did not record thier skill sets.At least Golding & leno did. Luckly with the age of information and easily accesable technology people can put to the pen and impart thier knowlege for all whos interested to read.

I really wish that I had the opportunity to travel the country, visit new places and difinitly be at the HCC Gathering. Unfortunatly, I have a little girl who is 6. She is to young to be left alone and is in school right now.

-Marlietta
http://lastmakingschool.com/About-Us.htm

(Message edited by Last_maker on October 13, 2010)

(Message edited by Last_maker on October 13, 2010)

[courtney]

Thanks everyone who posted a response! I just got back from Disneyland and was hoping I'd come home to the easy answers! I will read these more thouroughly later.

D.W., I guess my original post of how to fit the orthotic in the shoe was not so hard as the better but still tottally confusing idea of modifiyieng the bottom of the last. I think I will go with your first suggestion for now and hopefully I'll at least have some shoes to wear for awhile till I can figure out that other way.

Don, Thanks for your concern, I dont think trying to make shoes for normal feet is tottally impossible, but I agree trying to adjust problems in my gait and posting and all that stuff is probably left to someone whos studied all that foot mechanics and stuff.

Jask, yeah I've made 4 pairs on these lasts adjusting them each time. The last ones fit almost really great except for the pressure I felt on my leteral ball joint, I wasnt sure if it was the holdfast popping up higher through the thin insole or problems with my foot tipping to the outside, I think both. I didnt allow for the orthotic and later tried to build the last up and shove it in the shoe which broke it.

Marlietta, Sounds like the lasts you make are whats being recomended in spite of posts I have read to the contrary about a cast of the foot is not going to be a real last?

Janne, it sounds like you are just telling me how to cut the insole to the shape of my foot, I have already done that, is that all your saying to do or do you mean to carve out the arch and build a rounded ball joint treadline, etc?
Also, I spent some time with Michael Anthony who I guess spent some time with you and had lots of real nice things to say about your craftsmanship.
Thanks for taking the time to post when I know your not feeling your best.

I would love to see or read more on this subject if anyone could post more as I have not really read anything previously about modifieng the plantar surface of lasts.

Building up the lasts to fit the orthotics doesnt seem so hard anymore, sounds like if you can make the plantar surface reflect the actual foot that is the way to go, although if its not a normal foot that may fall into the scope outside of the regular shoemaker, but I really want top see how it is done. Anyone else think this is something that hasnt really been addressed?

Thanks,
Courtney

[courtney]

What about sandal soles? do those have molded arches and all that?

I've seen in HMSFM those cork arch supports and metatarsal round supports, How to you go about doing that?

That seems alot more doable than carving out the bottom of the last, and if you did that wouldnt you have to then level it all out to put the out sole on, I still dont get it.

Courtney

[jask]

Courtney, your foot requires more correction than would normally be incorporated into a custom last, you are wandering into the area of orthopedic footwear with correction built into the footbed and sole of the footwear.
It is also worth noting that most peoples foot orthotics are usually reviewed ever 2-3 years to make adjustments for normal biomechanical changes, will you want to be doing this kind of modification to your lasts over and over? I would think that your best option is to simply add material evenly to the bottom of the last to allow for additional volume in the finished shoe. Your foot orthotics can then be used and removed/adjusted easily.
The thickness under the center of your heel and at the met heads on those orthotics looks to be no more than 3/16", so if you were to add a layer of heavy leather to the bottom of your last, you may find the easiest solution is also the best solution.