Glues and Cements

[luckyduck]

I use Titebond 2 water resistant wood glue on my toe boxes. My method is to dilute the glue with about 20% water so it is more liquid and will soak into the leather. Then soak some 2-3oz veg tan in the glue and pull/nail it in place. With just one layer it is a little flexible, but has held up on my everyday motorcycle/work boots for a year and is what I intend to use on shoes. With 2 layers of glue soaked leather on a western boot toe it feels like wood. It held up to a 130lb person standing on them to see how tough they are.

I also like that I can just go to the store and buy it.

Anyway, that is my limited experience.

Paul

[danfreeman]

The adhesive that's named "Elmer's Glue-All" on the bottle, sold in the stationery store and many other sources, may contain more than casein, but it's safe and works well. I've tried many variations, this basic one works best for me.

I cook up 2 Tablespoons of water and 2 teaspoons of cornstarch (3 to 1) in a small lidless can, cool, cover but do not refrigerate; as I was taught, and it lasts for several pairs; it molds or separates after a few days--a pinch of alum delays it. Calvin added a pinch of salt, but continued to use it long after the mold had started, carefully using the unaffected portion.
I mix by eye, but aim for 60% Elmer's, 40% cornstarch paste.

[1947redhed]

DW. Do this in the kitchen on the stove in a regular pan. It's like making cream puff dough, it will wash out. Use the 1/4 C. flour to 1 C water ratio. It's less than a buck's worth of flour. This is a controllable amount to stir and cook without burning. Tuna can has ridges on bottom and you'll burn the stuff and never smoothly get it stirred. Store that cooked up batch in fridge. Then take a tablespoon or so of the cooked stuff and mix with a tablespoon of Elmers's for your working amount. You never cook the Elmers. Store unused 50/50 mix leftovers in fridge till used up and then mix up some more from the cooked up paste. That's how I do it.

[dw]

Dan,

Following up on your remarks, I don't think Elmers Glue-All has any casein in it anymore. From what I've been able to find out, the formula was based on casein when it was first introduced back some 70-80 years ago by Bordens. But the Elmer's website declares it to currently be an entirely synthetic product derived from petroleum.

In fact, I can't find any casein adhesives...pure or amended...on the market.

Some of what I found out suggested that adding urea might make casein adhesives water and mold resistant...which it is not normally. But despite the fact that pure casein is available (as a food supplement) and it is derived from milk, I am not sure that making your own, is really feasible.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[danfreeman]

Another myth shattered. Why the cow? But that Elmer's IS non-toxic. I don't cook it; I add cold cooked cornstarch paste to cold Elmer's, when do I mix the two. Dextrine is my favorite to make and apply, but the results are poor, and I never use it.

To digress: Peter Gardent claims some of his leathers have a casein finish--true?

[dw]

Dan,

Interestingly enough, it is actually a bull. Elsie the cow was the mascot of the Borden Company's dairy products division in the '30's.

Elmer the Bull...putatively Elsie's mate...was the mascot for Borden's chemical division and graced the label of Elmer's Glue-All. Even though Elmers is no longer owned by Borden the mascot remains.

As far as toxicity, even as a pure PVA product, Elmer's remains non-toxic.

And Garlin-Neuman's claim to use casein for certain leathers...no reason to doubt that. AFAIK, casein is still used in milk paint and other products...there's nothing wrong with it. I think Elmers was just reformulated to make it stronger and more durable.

And...undoubtedly it is cheaper to produce. always the bottom line.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Dan, Georgene,

What is this cornstarch mixture supposed to look like? Before the PVA is added...

I have a small batch cooling down now...it is still a bit warm but already it is more like gelatin than a viscous syrup. I have a feeling that if I don't stir it, it will form up into a gelatinous lump before I ever put the PVA into it.

Also, I made a small batch--1 T cornstach to 1/4 cup water...I needed to test the method and the hot plate I have in my shop. It cooked up really quick. Once it got to heat...close to boil...it thickened and cooking it over low for another minute or two didn't change its consistency much.

Any thoughts? Please comment...


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

--

[trefor_owen]

Joining in late to this (is there a pun there?), but I have used flour paste as a glue and a toe box stiffener(cf cornstarch in the Colonies, remembering my history: we on this side of the Atlantic are Wheat people while over there you are Corn.....) and to solve the mould/smelly problem add a couple of drops of Oil of Cloves... keeps well when in a sealed jar, warm up to re-use.. works on toe boxes of clogs!
Have heard sealing the groove was done with a Boshing Iron: think of a draw knife but the blade is replaced with a smooth bar of steel which is heated (often over a gas jet) and then the seam is compressed and heated by rubbing this bar over it - sets the glue and seals the joint...
Boshing was also the process of shaping and smoothing down the Waxed Kip uppers of a clog over the last ... it softened the wax, smoothed the leather down onto the last, then as the wax re set it held the shape created...

Another method I've heard of used over here for stiffening toe boxes is a painted on coat of Button Polish - a form of French Polish as used in Woodworking.

I know Animal glue is available as a readymade here in the UK but also as Flakes to make up yourself... Axminster Tools is my source of this, they are a woodworking tools supply company, I use some of their tools in my Clogmaking trade..especially a Twca Cam.. A hook knife in English, sort of wood carving knife
I was told most of the above tips during my Cabinet making apprenticeship many years ago.
Trefor Owen, Cymru.

[1947redhed]

DW, perhaps we need to cook some up at the Annual General Meeting! The following picture is from my presentation at the AGM two years ago.
It shows the consistency of the rye paste before mixing with the PVA glue. It's about the thickness of kid's library paste, not runny or viscous at all. When I used to make this in larger quantities for bookbinding, I mixed the pva with the paste with a hand held kitchen mixer. For smaller containers, just remove one beater!

11522.jpg

[dw]

Georgene,

Yeah, that's about what mine looked like except being corn starch it was more nearly transparent. It mixed in with the PVA quite nicely and I have a sample join drying now.

All,

Several other questions have arisen through this conversation and I would welcome responses...

1) would hot-ironing a join cause the glue to set faster?

2) On a related note but not strictly on topic, I think it was Paul who suggested soaking toe stiffeners in diluted PVA before mounting them. I soaked a little piece of split insole shoulder in Titebond II diluted with 80% water (just the opposite of Paul's ratio) and when I pulled it out and let it dry, I was amazed at how stiff it was. Triple or even greater than its natural state.

I am going to keep experimenting with that idea but using the more common white PVA.

Any thoughts?

Trefor,

Oil of cloves, eh? It's worth a shot and might even make the glue smell good. Tioraidh.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Hey DW and all
Been following this thread.

Between shoemaking and woodworking and some other work, ran into this problem many times.

Titebond II is great but Tite Bond III is way better. more open time and forgiving.

I have used Titebond 3 and some old denim for fitters. works like a charm.

Had to do some theatrical work and Weldbond is flexable yet stiffs veg tan in a nice way. Also welbond is great for fixing plaster casts, sealing plaster, add to concrete it makes it very workable and self sealing.

Back in the good old days we used a Dextrine paste. As I understand it is like Dried Malt extract for making beer. Seems like a good waste of potential beer.

Ahh the melding or the old and new.

[jenny_fleishman]

When using diluted Titebond with denim for fitters, or for soaking stiffeners and then preforming the toebox directly on the last--does the denim or leather stick to the last, or does the dilution prevent that?

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

I don't know how you would do it with the denim but the toe stiffener would ordinarily go between the vamp liner and the vamp.

I wouldn't pre-form the toe stiffener...I don't know why it would be necessary.

If I were to soak the stiffener in a dilute of Elmers, for instance, I'd also still use some of the glue...not diluted...to ensure that the stiffener adhered to the liner and the vamp.

Beyond all that if you were going to try to pre-form the toe stiffener or heel stiffener, you could use a silicone last slip to prevent sticking. But the issue for me is to simplify this whole process and get away from the dependency on petro-chemicals and toxic solvents (as much as possible) without forfeiting any strength or durability.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[chuck_deats]

Just a word of caution and maybe I am paranoid, but I do not allow anything with silicone in my shop. It is almost impossible to remove. Contaminated a shop once with silicone saddle oil. After that I had trouble with adhesives, granted it was worse with epoxies. Professional laminate fabricating shops do not allow silicones.

[odin2]

Hi everybody,
A newby here, with a rather specific first question in the forum.

I have a pair of old style mountain boots from french Paraboot (Galibier Super Guide, the-name-you-know among mountaineers). These leather boots have Norwegian welt. The welt (the perimeter where the sole is attached to the top) around the boot is treated with yellowish, semi-transparent glue-type impregnation that went into the threads. Paraboot just states this is "résine", in French.
The welt is covered against water and wear.
There are different types of welt sealing compounds; most of them dry after application, just like any toluene-based glue (ex, Welt Seal from Atsko). This résine on SuperGuide is different: it penetrates into the seam and threads and sticks even to oily leather. It remains quite sticky at room temp, and the way it looks it must've been applied with a putty or a brush while being heated or partly diluted. It never fully hardens, remains flexible and is really hard to wipe off without solvents.
Paraboot does not sell it separately.
I asked Paraboot to let me know what that stuff is, so I could find it on the internet and buy it myself (for other welt boots), but they did not tell me.
So my question is: any idea what this compound may be?

I have pictures, could show them. How?

Many thanks for whatever info.

[romango]

Georgene mentioned at the AGM meeting that she thought Fabric Tac glue, available at fabric stores, might be the same thing as Press Cement.

I purchased a bottle of Beacon Adhesives Fabri-Tac and did a side-by-side comparison with my Vangrip 2639-1 (real press cement).

Results:

I believe the Fabri-Tac is largely press cement but it appears to have some other component that makes it sticky. This stickiness remains even after well dry.

As such, I don't think it can stand in for press cement as it would not be sand-able or shave-able with glass. It also remains flexible after drying.

Too bad. It is cheap and had to be diluted 2x with acetone to get it to the same viscosity as the press cement.

It might still be an useful adhesive for attaching upper components to each other. I'll report on that as I learn.

It's also possible that other brands are a different composition but I suspect not.

[jon_g]

I've been reading through some old posts here on glues and cements. I've been using Hirschkleber for counters and toe stiffeners, but always am looking for an alternative because there's a long delivery time for me to get it. Thanks for the recipe for cornstarch paste, definitely going to try that.

When I used to use dextrine I put in a little vinegar to prevent spoilage, just a tablespoon for 500 ml. As long as I used a very clean jar, and kept it tightly closed it would resist spoilage for a long time. I never even thought to put it in the fridge, but that would help it last even longer.

[sharon_raymond]

I have been using a non-toxic water-based contact cement for all purposes except cementing on outer sole - it's Titan DX found at www.veneersupplies.com. I keep brushes in soapy water (dish-washing soap) so I can use them many times.

[producthaus]

I contacted McPherson and they apparently do not carry HIRSCHKLEBER paste anymore. Does anyone have another USA supplier?

Actually - I remembered that O Baltor & Sons carries it here in San francisco.

(Message edited by producthaus on November 01, 2010)

[dw]

Sharon,

What does it look like? --colour, etc..

Also how good does it hold upon contact? As good as Duall 88 or Barge?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[athan_chilton]

Nick, I got Hirschkleber from O. Baltor in San Francisco not long ago. I am not home so don't have my contact info handy but Directory Assistance can give it to you. They seem to have all sorts of stuff... I meant to visit them when I was in the Bay area in August but didn't get over to the city.

[tjburr]

I was able to get Hirschkeber from Atlas International http://www.atlasortho.com/catalog/search about a year ago. There on-line catalog does not show it but you might call and ask.


Terry

[sharon_raymond]

Titan DX dries clear, and I think it holds quite well, better than other non-toxics I have tried..

[dw]

Sharon,

Thanks. I understand the open time is around 30-60 minutes and that it cannot be re-reactivated with heat.

I also understand that it is very thin. Do you have to use several coats?

Any other tips?

I am considering giving it a try. I emailed the owner but he couldn't really advise me about using it with leather.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[jenny_fleishman]

re Hirschkleber...someone at the annual meeting told me that Yes paste is the "same" thing, so I picked up a jar at Michaels (arts and crafts store). Haven't tried it yet, though. Here's a link:

http://www.michaels.com/Yes%21-Paste/gc0273,default,pd.html?cgid=products-genera lcrafts-glueandadhesives&start=1

Jenny