Bottoming techniques

[dearbone]

Jason,

Thank you, I will give them a call.

Nasser

[larrym]

Another oxalic acid source... Savogran Wood Bleach


Should be available at most hardware stores.
Although, in the tradition of this group, maybe boiling rhubarb is not out of the question

(Message edited by LarryM on March 19, 2009)

[dw]

Oxalic acid is available at any bona fide pharmacy here in the states...whether a pharmaceutical grade would be cheaper than an industrial grade is anyone's guess. But I buy a little 4 ounce (?) bottle of crystals rather than a larger supply and it seems to last me for a couple of years.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[jask]

Rick I have heard of and used citric and acetic acid in coffee equipment -but Oxalic is a scheduled poison! I would not advise anyone to ever use it around the kitchen. I had a case many years ago where I had replaced the leather in a thigh corset of a polio brace, the leather looked a little uneven so I mixed my usual Oxalic solution, 1/2 tsp. in 3/4C. of warm water wiped it down several times over an hour then had used clean water and a fresh cloth to wipe it out several times...the client picked it up several days later and within 3 hours of wearing it developed a painful contact rash that took a week to clear up. It seems he had a allergy/sensitivity to Rhubarb as well...
I still use it,( much more cautiously) and have found the drug store variety no more effective than the type sold in Paint stores.
As far as the plants...I prefer to eat mine!

[dw]

I have long wondered why some makers cut the outsole into two pieces...a heel piece and the rest? Is it economy only?

And at the same time those that do cut the outsole into two pieces in this manner often cut a half moon shape out of the heelward end of the outsole so that when the outsole and the heel piece are butted up against each other, there is a gap that goes all the way to the insole.

What's with that? Is there an advantage to doing it that way?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[kaspar]

Hi DWFII
The reason I know it is done is when You are resoling the shoe, then when You take the old sole off You leave a half moon piece on the heel as a guidance. You can cut the edge of the new sole according to the old piece. Also when putting back the old heel lifts You already have a nicely and right shaped platform. As when You do the whole new sole it is more difficult and time consuming to cut the breast to fit the old heel lifts.
And sometimes if the shoe is too big and soles are cut ready then makers using second piece on the heel if the sole is not big enough.

Hope I explained it as far as I know the reasons.

All the best
Kaspar

[alexander]

Hi DWFII

The main reason for cutting outsoles this way is economics! you can cut out 20% more of a hide. The half-moon shape cut under the heel is in fact the tip of the other sole! It works like this:
(and now I hoped to download a drawing...)


Alexander

[alexander]

like this:
/attach{Doc4soleshape}

[alexander]

C:\Documents and Settings\user\Local Settings\Temp\Word\Doc4soleshape.htm

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[dearbone]

Here is almost the whole chapter on cutting soles and insoles, sorry about the quality,but i hope you can read it,making a pair at a time,i cut direct,but if i have the sizes,i sometimes cut them in range.The book is BOOT AND SHOE PRODUCTION by J. KORN
Alexander,i hope to see your pictures too.

9564.jpg

9565.jpg

9566.jpg

[dw]

Nasser,

Thanks for posting that.

Since Korn is virtually a reprise of Golding, I have probably seen almost the very same diagrams at some point or the other in Golding or some other volume of my library.

But the real question...for me, at least...was whether there was a purpose to cutting the curved graft or just economy. Korn suggests it's just economy. As does Alexander, above.

But if that's the case, why not just do a lap skive on the heel piece and the forepart piece ...a lap skive that will be buried under the heel stack and let it go at that. It seems much more secure...and even, in the hands of novices like myself, a far more esthetically pleasing approach than trying to get a good join by butting up two pieces--pieces that may shrink apart when the sole is exposed to moisture.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

I totally agree,Korn is a summary of Golding (without the good stuff)and i thought you might have them in your set,but others might find them useful.
The only time i made graft soles is when my materials are low,so i think it's done for economy,but as you said lap skive the two pieces is the way i was thought and i think works better than butting up the two.

[dw]

nasser,

Never think that I wouldn't want you to post excerpts from Korn...or Golding or Hasluck. I have Hasluck and yet it took you posting that except about heel seat stitching to alert me to the fact that it was in there.

I think a lap skive for piecing the outsole is the better solution, as well.

I might add that sometimes I will take small pieces of soling leather, lap skive and join them (never more than two pieces though) to make a piece that is big enough for a heel lift. I want to bury those lap-skived lifts deep in the stack but they are solid enough in that context and it too is an economy that is useful in a shop.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

First,thanks so much for bringing up the subject of seat sewing/stitching, I have been sewing the heel seats again lately on my shoes and i found out that is faster than other methods(tacking/pegging) and also produce a better lasting on the heel.

Nasser

[das]

DW,



"However, as soles are never sold long enough to reach up to the end of the heel seat, you must make up the difference there by adding first the split lift (b 2) and then several pieces of strong leather (c, c), called piece soles, to make up for the shortness of the sole.



NOTE: It might seem strange that, when cutting, an oxhide material is saved out of the length of these soles, but, aside from the fact that a greater quantity can be obtained, it is unimportant whether what will be hidden under the heel is of a single piece or several."



The above is what M. de Garsault had to say about piecing the seat in 1767. Though not universally seen on French-made shoes, piece soles were used for the same reason as the English--to economize on sole leather. From the mid-1600s onward, most if not all better British-made footwear has had pieced seats. Anglo-American footwear as well, up until around 1800.



In 1813 Rees makes exactly your point--the piece sole should not be butted plumb to the sole, but skived a little to overlap it at the join:



"Before you begin to stitch, put on the piece sole....and let it lap over the edge of the sole, for it is much better than to let them meet plumb. In the latter case it is liable to shrink and leave a vacancy between, to the injury of the shoe, and unsightliness of the work."



So, in case you were wondering, this technique is not some "industrial" or "factory" artifact from mass-production, but a venerable and traditional practice from way back when shoes and boots were still made "properly".

[dw]

Al,

Thanks for posting that. It's reassuring. Both of the West End shoes I examined had butted pieced soles, so I wondered.

Now, what does Garsault or Rees say about pieced heel lifts?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[courtney]

When I fill the bottom cavity with cork after inseaming, I'm not supposed to use contact cement because it dissolves the wax right? Can I use pva/paste mix? anything else I could find easily without having to order stuff? I just finished welting my first shoe and it was hell on earth! by the end it was way easier, but those first few stitches made me think I had really made a big mistake in construction technique.

Any help would be great!

Thanks,
Courtney

[dw]

Courtney,

First, if you are going to use cork, you probably should use the pre-mixed cork filler. It has a cement or glue already mixed in.

Second, use the all purpose if you must. But understand that especially if you are using linen thread, all purpose will dissolve the wax on the thread and it will deteriorate much quicker. If you are using dacron or poly thread (Teklon is a good example) it's not so critical. But bottom line is, be careful where you spread the cement.

Third, better to fill with leather than cork, in any event. All cork filling migrates. A year from now you will go to replace the outsoles and find that the cork is either dried up and fall out immediately after you open the sole, or it has bunched up in places and thinned down to bared insole in others. Or maybe you won't want to repair them...but what earthly good is a cork filling doing you or your shoe if it is bunched up or dust underfoot?

I have no idea whether pva will work. I would hesitate, it it were me. You need maximum flexibility under foot. You don't want anything that will get hard.

my

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[frank_jones]

Courtney Schamach

I fully agree with DW that if you are going to use cork as a bottom filler in welted footwear, you should use pre-mixed cork filler which comes in a can and is applied using a palette knife. As he implied, it is naturally sticky and needs no further adhesive.

However, I have a different take on using ground-up cork filler.

Besides the fact that welted footwear is more flexible than a footwear made using a cemented construction, the other major benefit of using a leather insole in welted footwear is the fact that the insole deforms in wear to take up the bumps and lumps of the wearer’s foot. This can be seen (or felt) very clearly by checking inside a well-worn welted shoe or boot.

The deforming process is aided dramatically when the filler is ground-up cork, rather that a more coherent material such as leather. As DW says the cork filler migrates and so gives room for the insole to deform where it needs to in wear, whilst still supporting the parts that don’t deform as much.

Frank Jones - HCC Member
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

[courtney]

D.W., I used pre-made Teklon tapers, I know in your book you say use latex, I couldnt find that at the hardware store. Is that what you still use?
If I was to use AP should I leave a little unglued margin next to the thread then? If I fill with leather do you think upper leather could be used, it seems like it would be cushier than soling leather?

Frank,
It sounds like you think that cork would be more comforatable, so you think that would be a better choice.

Now I have two different opions, can anyone else chime in and I'll go with the majority.

I have some more questions but I'll save them for later. I'm not planning on doing this for any one but me but So far I'm thinking I could make a pair of bespoke shoes for a $10,000 deposit, 2 year wait with only one customer, and no garantee on fit or craftsmanship. any one want to place an order?

Thanks,
Courtney

[courtney]

O.K., I do have another question. What do you do when you run out of thread when welting? you obviously cant run another length through the holes that already have thread in them cause it would be too tight right? So if you start at the next hole you have a space between the stitches.

Also, When inseaming a shoe, what is the thinnest thread you could use? would 5 cord Barbours be way to thin?

Thanks D.W. and Frank for responding to my first question.

Courtney

[dw]

Go with the premixed cork if you've got it. Go with soft, plump lining leather if you don't. I have and sometimes use latex but you're not gonna find very much of this stuff in a hardware store. Call the suppliers to your local shoe repair...ask for "Java Milk."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

Rule #1: Don't run out of thread.
Rule #2: when you run out of thread, refer to rule #1.

Courtney, I'd probably wear myself out first, by trying to get a start in my last hole.
But failing that, I believe as "a fix", if it's not in the flex area of the insole (about 1" either side of the tread line), you could just make another hole and start inbetween your existing holes. But very very careful, obviously.

Don't worry too much though. Go ahead and allow mistakes. Learn from them. This is one of your first pair. You'll take them apart someday and be all the wiser for it.

As to your survey, I use upper leather. And it's been in most all of the bespoke shoes or boots I've repaired in 37 years.

Paul

[courtney]

Thank you Paul. And thanks for saying dont worry too much, I know I'm just learning, your right.