miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

[john_ralston]

Just wanted to drop a quick note about scratch awls since they were mentioned above.

I got a really nice one from Barry King in Sheridan, WY. He even put a little crook in the tip for me at no charge. All SS, nicely made and not so sharp that it would scratch the leather. Does nice layout lines, etc.

One of the best $15 I ever spent.

[romango]

DW,

I hope to get up in your neck of the woods sometime soon.

Scratch awls make me nervous.

[dw]

What?! No one has any observations, advice, comment on avoiding water stains on shoes made with light coloured leather (and water based glues with tempered heel stiffeners)?

Rick...I've been using highly polished scratch awls for 35 years....and they still make me nervous. But these pens are making me virtually manic.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dearbone]

DW,

I use poly paste,which is basically a heavy duty wall paper adhesive and i buy it from the hardware store,i pour a small cup of water in glass jar and add 2 or 3 spoonful of the dry powder paste to water,wait few minutes,than stir well,if you want it thicker,add more paste and if you want it thinner,add little more water,if you are using thin leather,use a brush to spread and apply lightly on leather.Good luck.
The paste stays usable for months if you seal the jar after using.

Nasser

[artzend]

DW

you could try putting a light coat of contact adhesive on the flesh side of the quarters and letting it dry. This should stop the paste leaching to the outside. If it does get watermarked you just have to wash the stained area with water until it is all a single colour, as far out as the next seam and let it dry slowly. This normally sorts out the staining problem.

Nasser

if you add some PVA woodworking glue to the paste it works even better. Also the PVA seems to have a mould inhibitor so that is an advantage.

Tim

[dw]

Tim,

I tried that on these oxfords I am making. But aside from the fact that I want to use natural glues if possible...falling back on more traditional techniques and materials, as far as possible...I had several reservations about the process using contact cement.

First, I have used contact for years in just the manner you describe...for boots But I use a much heavier heel stiffener in boots than is usual in shoes. I was under the impression that gluing the heel stiffener tot he counter cover and the lining, when making a shoe, serves to stiffen the heel stiffener (and the shoe) to some extent. And so it has proved in the few pair I have made.

But if I use the contact cement on the flesh side of the quarters, I suspect that the glue will not adhere to it. That leaves me using contact cement between the quarters and the stiffener.

And in this last pair, I really felt the pressure (time) as the contact cement began to set up well before I was satisfied with the position of the stiffener and the overall progress of lasting the shoe.

All that aside...surely, lighter coloured uppers were used with nothing but natural water-based glues before contact cements were ever invented. What did a feller do back then?

PS...I tried mixing some PVA (Elmer's white) into my HirschKleber but it tended to granulate after a day or so.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Nasser,

I have several jars (well, only one and a half, now) of HirschKlevber, which I am told is ideal for around heel stiffeners as well as toe puffs. I also have done some tests with Yes! Dextrine (available at hobby shops) and I think it holds just about as good although it may get a tidge brittle a bit before the HK.

But I have in mind the idea to try some poly paste at some point in time. I also have some old fashioned wall paper paste...which I think is just some sort of flour. I originally got it to use as a sizing on some waxed flesh leather that I was experimenting with.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Tim,

BTW, my wife made a pair of chukka boots last week that turned out pretty credible for "trial boots." But the shoe got some water staining--they were a British tan oil-stuffed cow-calf--and when she thoroughly wet the whole boot (which usually works) the water stains only got incredibly worse--especially in the heel area.

Go figure...??!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW

I would only put the contact on the inside of the counter area and let it dry, this would be to stop the leaching out of the water to the outside. It is only a barrier, I would never last with contact. Then last using paste on the stiffener.

You could restrict the amount of paste you put on the grain side of the stiffener too. It's more important that it bond well with the lining than the upper I think.You could fit it into the upper and last fairly quickly and I think it would work.

This is a perennial problem, and you should try doing silk shoes, they are diabolical.

I have seen people (repairers) use Glad Wrap but then you wouldn't get any sort of adhesion between the upper and the stiffener, which is probably counter productive.

It seems strange that an oil-stuffed leather had problems with water staining.

I figured that you knew about the wetting but it may have helped someone else.

Nasser

I have an old-timey sign that a friend made for me years ago. I will get a photo online for you soon.

Tim

[dw]

Tim,

I see...yes, that makes sense but I would be happier if the stiffener were glued to the quarter as well.

BTW, what do you do to minimize the distortion of the broguing during lasting? Do you use some sort of backing material or just take your drafts gingerly and hope for the best?

It seems strange that an oil-stuffed leather had problems with water staining.

Yeah, I know and I had just completed a pair of boots using exactly the same leather and had wet and re-wet them thoroughly and had no problems. But the most of the staining on her chukkas was right in the heel area--where the "liquor" from a wet (possibly too wet) stiffener soaked through.

I figured that you knew about the wetting but it may have helped someone else.

Now you're catching on... (not that you weren't before, but that's sure enough the right approach)

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dearbone]

Tim,

I just added little(two tea spoons) wood glue to my polymer paste,which is thick like pudding and tested it on some pieces of lining leather,it made the paste more sticky which i also desired from my old paste,but i hope it wouldn't granulate the paste as DW mentioned,Thanks for the tip anyway.

Nasser

[dearbone]

PS,my only concern about using sticky paste,glues,cement on uppers is creation of wrinkled like lines on the uppers,even the little wood glue i added to my paste is causing wrinkles.

Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

The wood glue (PVA) didn't cause my Hirschkleber to granulate...the Hirschkleber seemed to cause the wood glue to granulate. and only after it had sat a day or two.

The PVA I added to the HK didn't cause the leather to wrinkle, either...maybe I didn't add as much in percentage as you did...or maybe it's a case of a delicate finish on the leather. I've seen that before without using PVA and just the thought of it makes me plenty nervous.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dearbone]

DW,

Here is my testament,i have three layers to put down,in this case,the lining,the toe cap and the upper layer,in the back it is the stiffener,the lining and the upper layer,in my opinion the paste used should not permanently glue(bond) the layers together,but to enable them to slide easier during lasting and to stiffen(harden)the layers.if the layers are permanently stuck/glue/cemented together,they are distant to cause wrinkles,because in this case the condition of one layer effects the other layers,if you cement/bond a toe cap to lining and in my case the toe cap is same leather as the lining,will cause wrinkles on the toe cap area,with polymer paste that can never happens and the three layers are not stuck together,but separately laying on each other.

Nasser

[artzend]

DW

I am assuming it is the other seams and not the topline we are talking about here. I didn't use tape on the vamp and quarter seams. Make sure that you have at least 5mm underlay past the punching and with the row of stitching past the holes and the one just below the V's in the top edge, I wouldn't think it would distort.

Tim

[dw]

Tim,

Well, I always use topline tape but even there I see some elongation of the holes in my broguing after lasting. This is particularly true if you tighten the topline ala Sharp or if you last "seats up" and "hoist" during lasting.

But I am most concerned with the toe perfs getting distorted...even a little. I have seen top shelf work where the perfs were perfectly round everywhere and always wondered how they managed to accomplish that.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Nasser,

I agree with you...I think. I want to glue/cement my lining and stiffener (to or heel) to each other and if psooible to the upper as well. But these are areas of zero or almost no flex and since they don't have to move there shouldn't be any effect on the layers.

I've never seen any footwear...contemporary or historical that had a toe stiffener that wasn't glued to the upper. I even saw an old pair of boots or shoes that had no lining and the stiffener was glued to the upper. Of course it would have to be, wouldn't it? If it wasn't it would drop down and bung up against the toes in short order.

And I have seen many...too many to be comfortable with the notion...modern shoes and boots where the lining was not adhered to the heel stiffener, at all, and as a consequence, the lining moved with the foot and eventually a hole was rubbed in the lining. At which point the heel stiffener, fell forward and was lost. In fact, I used to think that custom boot construction (my methods--traditional in cowboy boots)...with no lining over the heel stiffener...was superior to shoe construction for that very reason--because I had seen so many failed commercial boots and shoes.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[jon_g]

DW,
I think Tim has it right, the underlay of a piece of skived down upper leather, underneath the holes, providing a background for the perforations the same colour as the upper, that is stitched above and below the holes provides the firmness you are seeking in the topline. For the perforations in the toe cap, the stitching allowance of the vamp should do the same thing.

[athan_chilton]

As a beginner I want to clarify to myself just what Tight Stitches just said about "heel stiffener" glued to upper and lining... The very basic (oxford) method I just learned had the lining lasted first, then the heel counter (same as heel stiffener??) glued down onto the lining, then the upper glued onto that, just before starting to last the upper. Is this what you are talking about? ... I can't imagine how a shoe or boot could have a heel counter and NOT glue it to a lining... how could you just have a heel counter glued to the upper w/nothing else between the foot and the counter? Excuse me if I'm all confused...!

[dw]

Athan,

Western boots (cowboy boots), and I'm sure other kinds of footwear as well, seldom have a lining in the heel area. The commercial outfits use a lining but most custom makers do not. The heel stiffener is generally sewn to the tops and a counter cover is added. I have made shoes and lace up boots that way for years as well as the classic pull-ons.

This approach, using substantially heavier leather than is used on oxfords or derbys, results in the grain surface of the heel stiffener being next to the heel of the foot. It is a method that seldom fails during wear. But it is also a method which, because the boot last does not have such a strongly radiused heel profile, does not require a deeply cupped heel stiffener (although some cupping is always for the better).

Even there though I, and I think most of my colleagues, cement the counter cover to the heel stiffener. If nothing else, it prevents the leather from rucking up when the boot is pulled off using a boot jack repeatedly.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Jon,

Well, you would think so. But I have not had entirely satisfactory results just because the quarters underlay the vamp a certain amount. I often use the quarters as the background leather for the perforations...doing so nearly necessitates that the underlay be wide enough to be caught by the inner stitch line.

[sigh] Maybe I am just too persnickety.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[athan_chilton]

Tight Stitches, let me make sure I'm understanding you. The heel stiffener, grain side, lies closest to the foot, is sewn to the inside of the top, and the counter cover is sewn to the outside of the top?

I gather bootmaking is very, very different from shoemaking. What this reminds me of--I might be wrong here--is the outside counter/foxing kind of heel back on 'Renaissance' moccasins like Bald Mountain's. I don't think they have an internal heel counter either--the leather is so heavy it doesn't seem necessary.

[artzend]

DW

This question about the use of glue may have been confused. My idea of using a layer of contact on the flesh side of the quarters would just put a seal to stop moisture escaping to the outside and causing staining. It has to dry before lasting and plays no part in the adhering of the upper to the stiffener because the paste does that. I hope that clarifies things. Contact should never be used for lasting, it has some wrong properties.

Secondly, yes the quarters should undelay the second row of stitching by at least 5mm.

Athan

Yes you are right, the upper, stiffener and lining are all bonded together using paste, normally prior to lasting, but I have seen people lasting the upper without a stiffener and then rolling the upper back up and the stiffener (pre shaped) inserted with paste on both sides and the upper rolled down again.

This could give you problems when using some leathers which don't like being rolled back on themselves, patent being one.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

[dw]

Athan,

On a western boots (at least mine) the heel stiffener may be anywhere from 8-10 iron (3/16" ). This is similar to soling leather and, in some cases, depending on temper may actually be soling leather. In fact, I've used a mellow temper soling leather up to 12 iron for 35+ years.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on May 17, 2009)

[dw]

Tim,

But would the paste adhere to the contact cement? That's what I want to know...I don't know why it would. Would it make a difference if it didn't?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member