Closing techniques

[paul]

DW,

I have not seen metal french curves. I'll have to look for them. I can see they'd be handy.

Paul

[dw]

Paul,

It seems to me that years and years ago...shortly after the Chicxulub event, probably ...all French curves were made of metal. So there may be some in antique stores. But of course, nearly everything is plastic now. That said I found some dressmakers and specialty curves made from metal on the net with a quick search.

A couple of years ago I set out to convert some of my patterns...counter cover pattern, side draft template pattern, etc., to metal. I had run across a reference to old patterns being made of zinc and I had noticed that my plastic and formica patterns were slowly being worn away by the edge of the knife (especially with students).

So I got some zinc sheeting and started transferring my patterns. It was work but a lot easier than you would imagine...no harder than using formica or acrylic, at any rate. It was a natural jump to transfer some of my plastic French curves to zinc as well. I simply traced around them with a sharp awl and then cut them out with a jeweler's saw.

Believe me, if I ever buy another plastic French curve it will be solely to transfer the shape to the zinc. They are that good.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

Chicxulub event?

WHat do you use to hold your Zink stable while you saw it?

Paul

[dw]

Paul,

The "Chicxulub event" is the name given to the huge meteor that hit the Caribbean at the end of the Jurassic Period signaling the end of the Age of Dinosaurs and the beginning of the Age of Mammals. I was making a wry joke about my age.

I just use my hands to hold the zinc steady...I have a jewelers "whatchamacallit"--a short section of 2"x4" attached to my bench that has a deep "V" cut in to the end. This supports the zinc sheet and allows me to cut into curves and crannys. I am sure you saw it when you were here.

Cutting the zinc is not a big issue...more important is smoothing it with a jeweler's file.

[BTW, in case anyone is wondering (or even reading this), yes, I used to do a bit of silversmithing in my younger days...somewhere about the time of Bronze age. ]

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Membe

[homeboy]

Dee-Dubb,

I tried a few searches, but never found where you bought your zinc sheets. Do you mind telling us where you bought it?

Thanks in advance!

Jake

[dw]

Jake,

I've kind of been surprised at the lack of interest in my folding technique...it suggests to me that there must be easier and more accurate ways of folding an edge. Sigh, well as I never was taught any...I wouldn't know.

Anyway, the source for zinc sheeting is:

Van Dyke Restorers
421 E. Norway
Mitchell, SD 57301
1-800-237-8833

The sheet I got was .021" thick. I wouldn't want it any thinner, maybe a hair thicker would be OK.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[homeboy]

Dee-Dubb,

If there's an easier method, I've not heard of it. I think your technique is pretty darn neat! As Paul mentioned, the celluloid cement application is slick. Great presentation! Thanks!

Thank You for the contact information too. I'll have to give zinc a try.

[mack]

DW,
This is a well thought out method, well done.
We don't use this edge treatment much in west end work so I haven't had to do it in my own closing. I will try and pick a few brains to see if there are any tricks worth knowing but your way works so it is a valuable method.Like you say if we dont know techniques we have to invent them.
By the way I thought the last boots you posted in the gallery were excellent, a nice balance of materials and what to me is a more classic look which I prefer.
Regards Mack.

[dw]

Mack,

First, thanks for your comments on my technique. I never would have guessed that this approach was that uncommon in West End work. Frank's comments about it being an old technique as well as my own exposure to folded edges on finished work, gave reason to believe that it was commonplace.

I had a little bit of difficulty installing topline bead on my first pair of full cut oxfords and was able to adapt this technique to create top beads that just more or less fell into place. having had that work out so successfully, I have almost come to prefer it for making all my topline bead. This, in the face of the fact that I have been making topline bead in the traditional manner for over 35 years for my boots.

Which brings me to a sincere "thank you" for the kind and generous words regarding my latest Gallery posting. I started out my career in love with bright colours and fancy work...the fancier the better. But over the years I've just come to prefer a simpler, more classic look myself. I can't think of a better looking pair of boots than the W.D. Atwood (the name's not right but they are posted here somewhere ...I'll look for them) boots that are in Northhampton.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Mack,

Right, the name is W.D. Attewell. Here's a photo I was sent (and have permission to use) by Northhampton:

Not a cowboy boot in either inspiration or design but so clean and so classic...just look at that side welt--absolutely straight; the fair curve of the waist/arch; the simplicity and grace of the top binding. Wow...that's all, just wow.

8231.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on November 08, 2008)

[shoestring]

DW,or anyone else,

Is there a way to thin celluloid, in my shop it is cold over night now the weather has changed and it tends to get thick.

Ed

[lancepryor]

Ed:

I believe celluloid cement uses acetone as a solvent, so adding acetone should thin the cement.

On a separate topic, I'll post pics of the waist iron when I get one.

Lance

[paul]

Ed,

Acetone was I was going to say too.

When I was at DW's, I saw he kept a can for all the dried bits of celluloid cement that would drip from his toe boxes, into which he would pour acetone. He's a good example of miserly, er, I should say thrifty. Then maybe recycling is better yet, because it would become spreadable over time, and able to be used again.

Paul

[dw]

Paul, Ed, Lance,

Yes, acetone is the solvent for celluloid cement. And if you are wanting to thin it for the folding technique, it must be water thin. The whole idea is that celluloid is entirely waterproof when it is dry. So when it is water thin, it soaks into the manila folder material and in drying not only stiffens it but proofs it against the wetting that occurs subsequently. That's why only several coats are needed--it soaks in.

If too many coats or too thick a coating is applied, it will distort the template as it dries--curling and twisting it.

If this happens to a very small degree it may possibly be ignored. If it happens to a little greater degree, a heavy weight or a warm iron (like for ironing shirts) will flatten it out. If the twisting is great and the coating is thick (so thick it is shiny and appears to have an uneven surface) even the iron will not help--it will just blister and ruck up the cement.

And yes, you can collect the dried cement and put it into a jar with acetone and it will become liquid again and almost infinitely reusable.

BTW, you could also stiffen the edges of your folding template with thinnest CA (super glue)...I've seen it done. But I've come to hate the smell of that stuff so intensely that I don't use it unless I absolutely have to. I also associate it with breathing problems among woodworkers who use it extensively.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[big_larry]

D.W.,

Thank you for sharing the very high quality information on folding the edge.

I am struggeling with other aspects of construction right now, however, that does not in any way detract from the value and usefullness of your presentation. I often return to the subjects of the past when I am caught up to using them.

I sometimes get tangled in the use of terms. When you were discussing the channel, I continued to visualize the featherline channel and totally missed the term "channel" that refered to the stitch or inside channel on the inside of the holdfast. After you straightened me out, it became perfectly clear. Your book on "making the full wellington" has also helped me get a better handle on the terms. You teach in very exact and near perfect terminology, which is very helpful to learn. Getting all the terms straight on my part, as I decode the information comming in and encode the responce, helps me keep from sounding like a moron. This is one reason I did not respond to your presentation on turning the edge. I am interested and I cqn see that this has great value, but have not yet absorbed enough data to even ask a semi-intelligent question.

Please don't let the lack of responce be interpreted as a lack of interest or lack of appreciation.

"Baker is still GOOOOD and Full Wellington Rules."

Best wishes,

Larry Peterson

[romango]

Rick here, reporting in from Kathmandu. DW, your edge method has a comparable precision to Tim's method. I assume the main value is not having to put glue on the grain side of the leather.

[dw]

Rick,

I'm not an expert with Tim's method although I have tried it...and I liked it. But that's why I used words like "untutored" and so forth (just a wry way of saying I am not skilled at this technique). In Tim's hands I'm sure his method is just as precise (maybe moreso) than mine. But I do have some skills and I found it a little difficult to control the fold, especially on straight lines and around outside curves. So that straight lines were really and truly straight; and so that outside curves were always the same circumference especially when comparing one lateral quarter with the other.

Beyond that yes, of course I am always hesitant about applying cement to the grain side of especially unfinished leathers such as the burnishable buffalo I am using in the above photos. One thing you can do with an unfinished leather is apply a goodly amount of R.M. Williams saddle dressing to the grain side and that will prevent the cement from soaking in...of course it also prevents the cement from sticking, which in turn, makes it hard to use Tim's method with burnishable buffalo.

I hope you're having fun in Kathmandu. I saw a travel channel program where natives of that region (maybe not specifically Kathmandu) keep and live with guinea pigs (the people make their beds on low earthen slabs and the guinea pigs have burrows under the beds) and regularly harvest a pig or two from the herd (and I mean herd) for supper.

Eaten any guinea pig? Probably tastes like chicken.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[mack]

DW,
Thanks for showing that boot from Northampton.
I have seen it before and it is very high class work, really a work of art in my opinion. It was probably made as an exhibition or show piece.The sole would be light and finely stitched and the heel build from very thin lifts.
I have seen a similar style boot in John Lobb of London and this was an exhibition sample.The stitching on the uppers is beautiful as is the whole boot, the craftsmanship has to be seen to be believed.
I hope to go to Northampton some time soon to visit a leather supplier and will try to fit in a visit to the museum and grab some photos as it is a fascinating place.
Regards Mack.

[paul]

Mack, DW and others,

I can see the beauty of the details in the Attewell boot posted. I sure can't get my side seams so straight yet. (I need to work on that.)

Mack, the thing I'm interested in is your reference to the thin layers used in the heel base. I've seen this before. Why did they use such thin layers? Was it a result of jacking sole leather and so just a consequence of what was available at hand? Or was there some other reason, like beauty.

Thank you,
Paul

[dw]

Mack, Paul,

I was told by NorthHampton that the Attewell boot was built in 1840. I have no information one way or the other but since Elias Howe came up with the first working sewing machine in 1844, I have to assume that all the top stitching is done by hand. I can't hardly see the top stitching on the vamp but the stitching that holds the pulls on is probably better than a lot of us could do with a machine--tighter and smaller.

Personally, I like to see this kind of work. It doesn't always match with what I want to see in a boot...for instance, the lack of toe spring on the Attewell boot looks odd too me...but even if we, with our oh so superior vantage point, know that a boot needs toe spring, nevertheless it is done with such finesse and grace it is easy to overlook such things.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Larry,

Sorry it took so long to get back on this...don't ask.

I first developed this method to turn the edges of the facing on dress packers. I have also turned rather fancy toe caps for ladies lace-up boots (such as balmorals) with this method.

Collars are another place where this technique could bring a bit of refinement.

Raw edges often look...well, raw. Especially with modern chrome tanned, non-struck through, leathers.

Edit: I just noticed I fell back to my "same-old-used-to-be" in this post and used "turn" instead of "fold." Maybe it's true...you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Take 'im out and shoot 'im!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[mmboots]

DW,

Just wanted you to know that I read your post, made copies of it read it again and again. So now that I think I got it, I'm going to use it on a set of work packers that I'm starting to work on. I just hope to make the edges just half as good as you did. I'll let you know as things go along. Thanks for sharing with the rest of us.

Mike

[dw]

Mike,

Thanks for the comments. I'm sure you'll do fine with it.

I would worry about folding an edge with oil stuffed leathers, however, (you mentioned work boots).

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[mack]

Paul,
The fine detail boots and shoes I have seen feature many thin lifts in the heel.This was done to match the complexity of the rest of the boot and also to get an even better finish on the heel.On higher heels sometimes cracking between the lifting could occur. By using thin lifts and a strong paste or glue the heel would be so tight no cracking was possible and the finish would come up even better ,like when using a piece of tight grained wood.Everything about these show pieces was exaggerated and I suspect the lack of toe spring is to do with
keeping all lines defined and sharp and also the sole is very thin and the whole thing probably extremely light.I doubt we will ever see this level of work again.
Regards Mack

[mmboots]

DW,

I hoping this is going to work. I've made a few pair of work boots without turning the edges and they just don't look finished. So now I turn all the edges. I'll try a few practice runs frist. Thanks.

Mike