One "Last" Question

[dearbone]

It has been my experience, that different shoe patterns made on the same last wouldn't fit the same and i blame it on the last makers of course,who else? just kidding,most of the time when i flatten my frome, it changes a little,the stress on the toe and the back is obvious to most of us,the back line ,i usually make a little smaller at the top and add a little to the bottom part of the flatten forme in the back,but it is always wise to make a shell pattern to try for the back seam before making the real thing.

Frank,

As soon as i receive payment for my recent job, i will send you a money order for the book.

regards Nasser

(Message edited by dearbone on July 24, 2008)

[romango]

Nasser,

Is a shell pattern the same thing as a meane form?

- Rick

[dearbone]

Rick,

A shell pattern is basically an upper without the lining,Taken from the meane forme,i make it to check on my back line and the location of the quarters or toe caps,it is only few dollars cost and no need to bottom it,but it makes me see the shoe before it is made,it is too costly in money and time to find out the shoe wouldn't fit after its made as you know, If i need to last my shell pattern,than i sew a piece of lining leather in the back to fit and cover a counter, Of course every shoe maker has his/her own way of double checking,but that's how i do it.

regards Nasser

[romango]

I see. I usually make a fitter's model using my actual pattern. I think this amounts to the same thing.

The shell would be good for me in the case I was not making a fitter's model, like for my own last, for example.

[dearbone]

Yes,I also make the shell cut from actual pattern,so it is the same as you cut your fitter,but i assume you last and heel your fitter and have the customer come to try,but do you line them complete?

Nasser

[romango]

No, I just glue counters on the outside.

[jesselee]

All, Is there someone here who can copy my 1880's cowboy boot lasts on a copying lathe? I need a range of sizes in full and halfs from 7 to 12 with 8,9, 10 in duplicates. This is just to start with.
Thanks,
JesseLee

[dw]

Nasser, Rick,

I pre-form a heel stiffener to the last (with the insole in place) and last the fitter's model over it. If it is good grade leather and you glue the fitter's model to the stiffener, you don't have to worry about it collapsing when the customer tries it on.

There are several notable advantages to this approach...

First, when you last the fitter's model over the added substance of the heel stiffener you get a close(r) approximation of the way the shell (and the actual shoe) will fit the last and the foot.

And second, if you need to make a second fitter's model shell, you can simply pry the shell loose from the glue (be sure it is glue--Hirschkleber or dextrine, or something similar) and leaving the stiffener in place, last the new shell over it.

In fact, you can reuse the stiffener over and over again for all customers who are using that size last. Probably not forever, though.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on July 26, 2008)

[dearbone]

DW,

Pre-forming stiffeners,i was stopped by my teacher,He watered the stiffener, skive it on top and bottom and sandwich it between the top and lining leather and last them, as i do for the real shoe,except here i only line the back(the quarters area),i cut v shape slits to the bottom of the stiffener to remove the wrinkles for better lasting.

[btippit]

Jesse,

Contact me offline about copying your 1880s lasts and the size run you need. Thanks.

Frank,

I've seen the UK/USA conversion be all over the place (especially on women's sizes) but most of the time it seems to be as follows:

MEN'S = one full size down (i.e. UK men's size 8 = USA men's size 9).

WOMEN'S = 2.5 sizes down (i.e UK women's size 7 = USA women's size 9.5)

Bata has a nice conversion chart plus a size calculator on their site: http://www.bata.com/us/tips/shoe_size_chart.php

Of course there are other charts and I've seen women's shoes marked up to 3.5 sizes in the conversion but as with any "standard".....

Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

[romango]

Below I have overlaid a customers foot imprint over the last bottom outline. Should I try to adjust the last by adding material at 'a' or 'b' or both or neither?

I tend to think there is not much to be done about the swing of the foot at the arch, short of some big orthapedic adjustment, which I am not qualified to do. Any suggestions?

7824.jpg

7825.jpg

[dw]

Rick,

The clear answer is "A." Why? Imagine, if you will, a line running from the center of the back of the heel, just to the lateral side of the first metatarsal head--the "line of muscular action" (LOMA)--it should extend to the center of the last toe, or very nearly so. That line would nearly be off the medial side of the last in the second figure.

Now others may approach this differently but building the last at "B" makes no sense whatsoever to me.

It is not uncommon for the foot to spread laterally. And a lateral "cuboid" bulge is one of the commonest buildups we have to deal with. But because of the weight and overall structure of the foot on the medial side, it is far less common for a foot to spread medially to any significant degree unless there is structural damage.

You might also think about lasts. Between an "A" width and an "E" width, where do you suppose the "widening" actually takes place? I have observed that most of it take place on the lateral side--in other words, the center of gravity remains pretty well fixed in the same relative position as widths increase. Like the foot, the last spreads laterally.

So if the LOMA represents one way of looking at the center of gravity for the foot, it will always fall in relatively the same line on the last. In other words if you put your customer in a wider last than than you have illustrated, the foot print would fit more comfortably within the outline of the bottom paper....but regardless the center of gravity would remain the same on either the narrower or wider lasts.

Any of that make any sense?

I have no doubt that someone else will see this differntly but that's my take.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[romango]

DW,

Good point about the LOMA. It's obvious when you point it out.

Would you tend to build out to the full amount on the lateral side (at 'a') or somewhat less allowing the shoe act as a limit (or support) to the spreading of the foot?

[paul]

Rick,

Thank you for posting this, as I have had the same issues.

I would think that if you didn't build out to the full lateral imprint for your insole, the foot will go there anyway, leaving the insole behind. Which would make the boot look run over, which I suppose it really would. The medial side of this foot looks really healthy.

I personally want the imprint to be the boundry for my insole with the LOMA being the "center" line.

You don't say anything about heel height, but it makes me remember what I was reading yesterday in the Sam Lucchese book about his opinion regarding the base of the fifth met. He felt with this shape of foot you don't want to go too high on the heel and you want you insole to be fairly flat in the arch. Otherwise it puts too much pressure on the base of that fifth met, and it can become a very painful spot on the foot, so it must be considered.

I look forward to more comments on this and will concede to those who know better.

Again, Thank you for posting this,
Paul

[headelf]

Paul, what is the full title of the Lucchese book?
Thanks,
Georgene

[dw]

Rick,

I think Paul's point about the foot leaving the insole behind is a very good one. My basic philosophy is that the footprint should be nearly congruent with the insole everywhere except maybe around the extreme ends of the toes (and even there you could make a case) and of course the very end of the last.

Also both Luchesse and Paul are making the same point. If the last is built out laterally, the insole will tend to be flat. If the vamp has to roll out from under the foot to accommodate the lateral bulge, it cannot ever be flat.

The one thing I would comment about is that in my lexicon, the LOMA is never the center of the last...although it might easily be confused with it as it runs, ideally, from the center of the heel of the last to the center of the toe of the last. Then too, the LOMA is foot data not last data so that makes it even more confusing.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

Georgene,

That would be A Life Time with Boots, by Sam Lucchese. Great stuff!

It's from a series of articles from interviews by Tad Mizwa and printed in Western Outfitter Magazine before Sam died. Truely one of the great saves of our boot making heritage.

According to Jennifer June's web page, it's
"(Available from Lucchese, call 1-800-239-5925 or check online at abebooks.com.) It's a good find. http://www.dimlights.com/boots/resources/reading.htm

It's one of those kind of publications where you learn something new everytime you go back to it.

Paul

[jask]

Here is a handy link, an excerpt from Golding:
http://chestofbooks.com/business/clothing/footwear/The-Manufacture-Of-Boots-And- Shoes/Foot-Characteristics-At-Different-Periods.html
The "line of progression" that I was taught is the same as DW uses,- or alternately the line from the medial edge of the heel through the center of the first metatarsal head for narrow or womens heels.

[romango]

I have a last library of a particular style men's shoe. In this library, I can choose from a wide range of widths.

In choosing a last for myself, I find that if I fit the last bottom to my foot print, I would choose a larger width (10E). But if I want to more closely match the girth of my feet (ball, instep and waist), I would choose a smaller width (10C).

Adjusting the 10E requires removing lots of material, which is tricky and pretty much wrecks the last. Adjusting the 10C requires widening the base which seem prone to messing up the line of the shoe. That is, bulging it out in a less than ideal manner.

Can other makers tell me which they would choose to start with and why?

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Rick
My Two cents. Don't grind 10 E make a copy form a plaster bandage and fill with Polyurethane foam of Bondo and then grind away Or First choice build up the 10C and you can do that with out ruining the line. Fiqure out were you want the widest part and cement High Density EVA and grind away to feather edges, except for feather lines grind that in the same plane as the insole shape.
It's easier than you think? if it fits well make a copy as said above and keep it for good, take the build ups off the 10C and you how have two good lasts!
Regards
Brendan

[das]

Now here's a question:

I'm faced with making a mold (2-piece, or separate-able) of a delicate 250 year old antique shoe last, so the method must not get the object wet or leave any messy surface residue. Since this object is in another museum's collection, the process needs to be fast, safe, and as "dry" as possible--we don't like tubs of water or wet junk in collections storage you see.

After I get this mold, I need to cast a model last in it later (back in the shop), in some material that will stand up to scanning in good Mr. Bill Tippit's lathe. Carl Lichte copied several of mine this way, and he used Hydrocal B-11 (a very strong gypsum), which he says held up fine in his older, high psi last lathe. The only difficulty I'm seeing is, I can't use the Hydrocal for making the 2-piece mold, because it's a water-based slurry like plaster of Paris.

Silicone rubber mold maybe? What sort of coating is applied to the antique last so the silicone won't adhere to it, or leave any surface evidence/residue?

Bill, will Hydrocal gypsum models hold up in your lathe just for scanning them in?

[donrwalker]

DA,

You might try wrapping it with packing with the sticky side out for several layers and then several layers with the sticky side in. Put a layer of masking tape or something on the last where you plan to cut it off so that you can cut through the packing tape without damaging the last.

DRWalkerII

[headelf]

Al,
I've made a lot of molds using RTV (room temperature vulcanizing) silicone rubber.

There is a spray on release agent that doesn't harm the original, but then I wasn't as picky as a museum. The rubber is mixed with a catalyst that is usually 10 per cent of the weight of the rubber.

You can cast plaster, gypsum, cement, etc in the finished mold. For what you're going to do with the
facsimile foot, I'd use Part A, Part B resin. You mix the same weight or volume of each part, stir and pour in the mold. Sets up in about 30 minutes, depending on volume.

The cured resin is really tough and if you needed to tune up the cast foot to remove flash or smooth the profile, you can do it without waiting a long time for the water based products to dry out. And if you drop the foot, it will survive better than gypsum.

Just my 2 cents worth

Georgene

[dw]

Georgene,

[pardon the temporary hijack, Al]

Where do you get RTV and where do you get the release agent?

Do you know if RTV will stand up to casting pewter (@475°-500°)?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[erickgeer]

DW,

I don't know how hot molten pewter is, but there are a wide variety of RTV products to suit many applications- each one will have different properties
Smooth-on seems to be the go-to company these days.

Erick