Sean - I've heard that theory before about a rounded bottom making the shoe appear narrower than it is. That may be the case but I think it was by accident. In other words, it may make the shoe appear narrower but I think the rounded bottom is for a more technical benefit. I really believe some contour in the tread area is a benefit and I guess the best way to illustrate my point is to ask everyone, all other issues being equal (and taking style out of the equation completely), which would you rather have on your feet, a pair of well made Western Boots or a pair of $5 flip flops?
Concerning Aravon, I was in a shoe store owned by John Chereji, a friend of mine, and since he was busy with a customer I started walking around feeling the footbeds inside women's shoes. NOTE: The shoes were on shelves, NOT on women's feet.
I picked up several Aravon shoes and thought to myself, "Self, these are the most comfortable footbeds you've ever felt. Not too cushy but soft enough to feel good and still support your foot throughout the day....if you wore women's shoes."
A few weeks later I was doing a consulting job for another chain of comfort shoe stores and got a large sample pack of footbed materials from Mark Landwehr, my good friend who still works at Jones & Vining. As I was going through the material I came across something that felt very familiar. The next time I went to John's store I pulled an Aravon footbed out of the shoe and sure enough, there was a JV logo pressed on the bottom of it. I spoke with Mark and found out that Aravon and quite a few other brands have adopted this material throughout certain lines. It's called Poli-Corkâ„¢ and it's not only comfortable, it's moisture wicking, and has an anti-bacterial agent in it. It's can be die-cut or molded in various thicknesses. Good stuff.
Rob - If you ever see an SAS last you will be forced to gouge your eyes out with the end of a shoe lace and have your memory permanently erased. They are the most secretive company I know of when it comes to lasts (and everything else for that matter). They make all their own lasts but before they started doing that (and stole my best model maker from me in the process) we made their lasts at JV. I have it from good sources that their lasts have not changed dramatically in the past 20 years and I think that's reflected in their styles. So, if the lasts are basically the same I can safely say they are far from flat on the bottom.
I think a lot of the shoes we think are made on flatter lasts are really made on more conventional lasts and the appearance of flatness comes from the sole, midsole, and footbeds. It also seems to me that whenever I've looked at a well used orthotic, it has some roundness on top. Maybe the bottom is flattened out from molding to the flatness of the shoe but I'd bet if you laid a straightedge across the top there would be a gap towards the tread point.
And on that note, Greg, thanks for bringing up the Munson. Below I've placed some pictures of cross sections taken at the tread point on three lasts. The view is from the toe. One is the pump last that started this conversation, one is the Munson, and one is a 16/8 Western Boot last many of you have purchased from me.
You can see that the pump has far less contour now than either of the other two, which are both highly successful lasts. The horizontal line I've drawn from featherline to featherline helps to show the radius (basically). Even if you allow for the fact that the pump is a women's 8B while the other two are men's 8Ds you can see that the pump is never going to get wide enough to match either of these. Keep in mind also that my customer wants the bottom to be as flat as that horizontal line I've drawn. Those of you who advocated that I just tell them to try it are correct. I've done this however, with a disclaimer. Normally when developing a new production style I'll allow for minor tweaks after the first one at no model charge. In this case I've made them aware that the "no charge" clause does not apply to issues I've specifically warned against.
So, I'm good with whatever their decision is, which I'll find out next week.
Bill “The Last Man Standingâ€
One "Last" Question
-
btippit
Re: One "Last" Question
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Re: One "Last" Question
Bill, a couple of things come to mind on what your client may be thinking by requesting a flat forefoot.
If gearing this range of pumps to an aging demographic,(or an Urban Taxi-chasing one) perhaps they believe it will give more stability in the front to correct for the natural wobble of a heel in back.
Are they going to use some sort of injection pre molded outsole? On first glance it appears a flat bottom last will be easier to seat in a preformed sole.
However, I have a vast collection of recently made lasts that were originally created to be used with preformed high heel and wedge bottoms. All of the lasts have that slight profile smile that you've illustrated above. Then to be thorough I checked a sampling of all my men's, kids and women's heeled lasts. They all have the smile--even if it only amounts to 1-16-1/8 of an inch.
What's that old saying: "you don't want to be caught flat-footed"
Regards,
Georgene
If gearing this range of pumps to an aging demographic,(or an Urban Taxi-chasing one) perhaps they believe it will give more stability in the front to correct for the natural wobble of a heel in back.
Are they going to use some sort of injection pre molded outsole? On first glance it appears a flat bottom last will be easier to seat in a preformed sole.
However, I have a vast collection of recently made lasts that were originally created to be used with preformed high heel and wedge bottoms. All of the lasts have that slight profile smile that you've illustrated above. Then to be thorough I checked a sampling of all my men's, kids and women's heeled lasts. They all have the smile--even if it only amounts to 1-16-1/8 of an inch.
What's that old saying: "you don't want to be caught flat-footed"
Regards,
Georgene
-
fred_coencped
- 3
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:32 am
- Full Name: Fred Coen;Foot Comfort Center
- Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
Bill,
From an anatomical perspective the metatarsal arch in the last will allow the tread width to be narrower on the last just because of its transverse arch support that will narrow the foot.
I think this is one of the secrets in a Bali last.
Rob,
I am not fond of any heel height over 1/2",for myself,and I have also fitted Aravons doing complete surgery removing the entire footbead and only to find a shear nitemare discovering a contoured insole .After fitting the completed suede covered wrapped orthotics ,they had the original look with much higher heel cups for rear foot stability.[these were sandals with adjustable forefoot,instep and ankle straps].
Thanks also for your mention of Theresias,I am familiar with both and I would only relay that info to clients as I am not in that sort of shoe store business.
From an anatomical perspective the metatarsal arch in the last will allow the tread width to be narrower on the last just because of its transverse arch support that will narrow the foot.
I think this is one of the secrets in a Bali last.
Rob,
I am not fond of any heel height over 1/2",for myself,and I have also fitted Aravons doing complete surgery removing the entire footbead and only to find a shear nitemare discovering a contoured insole .After fitting the completed suede covered wrapped orthotics ,they had the original look with much higher heel cups for rear foot stability.[these were sandals with adjustable forefoot,instep and ankle straps].
Thanks also for your mention of Theresias,I am familiar with both and I would only relay that info to clients as I am not in that sort of shoe store business.
-
relferink
Re: One "Last" Question
All,
I had the chance to tour the SAS factory back in '96(?) when the PFA meeting was in San Antonio. Still kick myself for not taking it. I was there as a vendor, had a booth to attend and as a vendor wasn't invited for the factory tour but I should have tried to sneak in anyway.
Most of the SAS collection does have the rounded last bottoms, definitely the classics that have been in their collection for some 20 years. The two styles that I find to have a flat bottom are the Freetime and Time Out models. Working with orthotics and shoe modifications on those I have taken them apart more than any other shoe and as Fred indicated, when you make orthotics you have to follow the bottom contour of the shoe.
As for the Aravon shoes, yes they have rounded last bottoms, it was the sandal on this bottom unit I was referring to as the flat(tened) forefoot last bottom.
Sandals on this bottom were slip lasted and later a stiff board was added, much stiffer than a regular insole to decrease joint motion in the foot. On top of that they used a sock liner. I remember this sandal had a forefoot slapping issue so the last shape may have been changed again later on, before it was put out into the market. Haven't kept track of them lately.
It's too bad Jones & Vining chooses to keep their cushioning materials for their clients only. They do have some nice things in their offerings and some brands, like Aravon do relay heavily on them for much more than lasts. In fact the original specs on the bottoms of the above sandal were JV.
An other element to consider in the rounded vs flat “battle”, a flat last bottom has more contact surface and can have a little more forefoot slap. Not that the flatness would cause slapping but if the shoe has a tendency to slap it's going to be worse with a flat bottom. Additional I believe that a rounded bottom has a slightly larger margin of error for the placement of unit soles. About 1mm but it may cut down on seconds or rejects for the manufacturer.
The custom boot vs flipflop is not a good comparison as there is much more going on than just bottom shape. If a rounded shape was more comfortable why wouldn't a flip flop be rounded, doesn't take much more to mold the bottom slightly rounded like a last shape. I don't think there is a benefit so why bother?
Fred,
I agree with your assessment that a ½” heel is plenty for most but some customers simply insist on fashion over comfort, I find that a reasonable compromise can often be found up to a 12/8 heel.
Rob
I had the chance to tour the SAS factory back in '96(?) when the PFA meeting was in San Antonio. Still kick myself for not taking it. I was there as a vendor, had a booth to attend and as a vendor wasn't invited for the factory tour but I should have tried to sneak in anyway.
Most of the SAS collection does have the rounded last bottoms, definitely the classics that have been in their collection for some 20 years. The two styles that I find to have a flat bottom are the Freetime and Time Out models. Working with orthotics and shoe modifications on those I have taken them apart more than any other shoe and as Fred indicated, when you make orthotics you have to follow the bottom contour of the shoe.
As for the Aravon shoes, yes they have rounded last bottoms, it was the sandal on this bottom unit I was referring to as the flat(tened) forefoot last bottom.
Sandals on this bottom were slip lasted and later a stiff board was added, much stiffer than a regular insole to decrease joint motion in the foot. On top of that they used a sock liner. I remember this sandal had a forefoot slapping issue so the last shape may have been changed again later on, before it was put out into the market. Haven't kept track of them lately.
It's too bad Jones & Vining chooses to keep their cushioning materials for their clients only. They do have some nice things in their offerings and some brands, like Aravon do relay heavily on them for much more than lasts. In fact the original specs on the bottoms of the above sandal were JV.
An other element to consider in the rounded vs flat “battle”, a flat last bottom has more contact surface and can have a little more forefoot slap. Not that the flatness would cause slapping but if the shoe has a tendency to slap it's going to be worse with a flat bottom. Additional I believe that a rounded bottom has a slightly larger margin of error for the placement of unit soles. About 1mm but it may cut down on seconds or rejects for the manufacturer.
The custom boot vs flipflop is not a good comparison as there is much more going on than just bottom shape. If a rounded shape was more comfortable why wouldn't a flip flop be rounded, doesn't take much more to mold the bottom slightly rounded like a last shape. I don't think there is a benefit so why bother?
Fred,
I agree with your assessment that a ½” heel is plenty for most but some customers simply insist on fashion over comfort, I find that a reasonable compromise can often be found up to a 12/8 heel.
Rob
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
romango
- 8
- Posts: 854
- Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:40 pm
- Full Name: Rick Roman
- Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
- Been Liked: 8 times
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
I have a customer that I am fitting remotely. After sending fitters 3 times, we have the toe fit well and the heel is not lifting up but he reports that the fitters blouse out at the top line. He says he can fit 3 fingers in the outside of both shoes.
Anyone have advice on where to adjust the last to tighten this up?
Anyone have advice on where to adjust the last to tighten this up?
-
relferink
Re: One "Last" Question
Rick,
Does your customer have a picture of the fitting shoe on his feet? I take it that the problem only happens when he stands up on the shoes?
Couple of things come to mind. First of all if the top line gaps both medial and lateral I would suspect the shank collapsing, this will certainly cause that type of gaping.
If the gaping is lateral the last may be too narrow in the base, causing the foot to force out the counter once the customer puts weight on the foot, thus causing the gaping at the top line.
This is on of those cases where a picture is worth a thousand words. If your customer can make a few pictures, both sitting down with the shoes on and standing up and you can add a picture of the lasts it would be much easier to diagnose.
Rob
Does your customer have a picture of the fitting shoe on his feet? I take it that the problem only happens when he stands up on the shoes?
Couple of things come to mind. First of all if the top line gaps both medial and lateral I would suspect the shank collapsing, this will certainly cause that type of gaping.
If the gaping is lateral the last may be too narrow in the base, causing the foot to force out the counter once the customer puts weight on the foot, thus causing the gaping at the top line.
This is on of those cases where a picture is worth a thousand words. If your customer can make a few pictures, both sitting down with the shoes on and standing up and you can add a picture of the lasts it would be much easier to diagnose.
Rob
-
romango
- 8
- Posts: 854
- Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:40 pm
- Full Name: Rick Roman
- Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
- Been Liked: 8 times
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
Robert,
Very interesting. Looks very collapsed medially.
Standing
Sitting
Very interesting. Looks very collapsed medially.
Standing
Sitting
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
artzend
- 7
- Posts: 519
- Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:00 am
- Full Name: Tim Skyrme
- Location: Agnes Water, Queensland, Australia
- Been Liked: 5 times
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
Rick,
A couple of things. Sometimes the shoe gapes there because the foot is a bit fleshy on the outside behind the joint and although the measurements look right, that fleshy ridge can push the topline out of line like that. I need a build up along the feather edge for shoes for me, and if I try on a slip on shoe it gapes like that. I guess this is what Rob said.
Sometimes too, it is because there is too much bulk under the front of the shoe, which alters the toes spring. This will be ground away before the sole is applied and won't be a problem then. Pressing down on the toe will show if it is that.
A couple of things. Sometimes the shoe gapes there because the foot is a bit fleshy on the outside behind the joint and although the measurements look right, that fleshy ridge can push the topline out of line like that. I need a build up along the feather edge for shoes for me, and if I try on a slip on shoe it gapes like that. I guess this is what Rob said.
Sometimes too, it is because there is too much bulk under the front of the shoe, which alters the toes spring. This will be ground away before the sole is applied and won't be a problem then. Pressing down on the toe will show if it is that.
-
relferink
Re: One "Last" Question
Rick,
Looks to me that your customers pronation is the cause of the problem. His foot is rolling in too much, torquing the shoe that causing the lateral top line to pull away. Control his access pronation and you'll get a much better fit.
First thing to do is find out if it's a rigid or flexible flat foot. Where this customer is long distance it may be a little harder than usual but if your customer made one of those 3 buck chuck imprints, both standing and seated you can tell if the foot is rigid or correctable base on the difference in shape of the print. It's a little hard to see in the pictures but based on the second picture I would make an educated guess that the foot is flexible enough.
Something as simple as an arch cookie can make a major difference. An extended medial heel counter will also help to control the foot.
If the foot is rigid you will have to build up the last medially to account for the shape of the foot.
You can also take in the flanks of your lasts, getting a tighter lock on the topline may help some, on the downside that may cut into the customers foot when he rolls into the topline.
Considering how far forward the bulge is I don't think it's solved with adding to the feather line around the heel.
Send him an arch cookie and have him try that. It's the simplest thing without having to change the last (yet).
Good luck getting it right.
Rob
Looks to me that your customers pronation is the cause of the problem. His foot is rolling in too much, torquing the shoe that causing the lateral top line to pull away. Control his access pronation and you'll get a much better fit.
First thing to do is find out if it's a rigid or flexible flat foot. Where this customer is long distance it may be a little harder than usual but if your customer made one of those 3 buck chuck imprints, both standing and seated you can tell if the foot is rigid or correctable base on the difference in shape of the print. It's a little hard to see in the pictures but based on the second picture I would make an educated guess that the foot is flexible enough.
Something as simple as an arch cookie can make a major difference. An extended medial heel counter will also help to control the foot.
If the foot is rigid you will have to build up the last medially to account for the shape of the foot.
You can also take in the flanks of your lasts, getting a tighter lock on the topline may help some, on the downside that may cut into the customers foot when he rolls into the topline.
Considering how far forward the bulge is I don't think it's solved with adding to the feather line around the heel.
Send him an arch cookie and have him try that. It's the simplest thing without having to change the last (yet).
Good luck getting it right.
Rob
-
shoestring
Re: One "Last" Question
Rick,
This is just a green horns spin.Could your customer not have taken his short heel measurement right and caused the fit point to be thrown off.Maybe you could recheck your pattern and measurements again.This sort of thing happened to me and after rechecking everything I found the mistake I made in measurement which threw off the pattern and caused the same thing.Just my 2 cents of help.
Ed
This is just a green horns spin.Could your customer not have taken his short heel measurement right and caused the fit point to be thrown off.Maybe you could recheck your pattern and measurements again.This sort of thing happened to me and after rechecking everything I found the mistake I made in measurement which threw off the pattern and caused the same thing.Just my 2 cents of help.
Ed
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 125 times
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
Rick,
Straight from the peanut gallery...
I don't doubt that there are several factors at issue here. Not having Rob's expertise (and no reason to question it), I would put that aside for the moment and remark that Ed's comment also strikes a note with me.
I see the facings laced tight together on this shoe and still there is excess. I am left wondering...if the shoe could be laced tighter, would the gap disappear? I don't know if that would cause discomfort or not but my feet probably pronate a little that way and I don't have any issues with the topline despite the fact that my first pair of shoes are probably cut too high on both sides.
An arch cookie seems an obvious solution and looking at his feet, you almost wince to think how much better they would be with an arch cookie. An arch cookie might also take up some of the excess room in the shoe allowing it to be laced up a little tighter with perhaps a bit of a gap between the facings.
I wonder if this doesn't re-energize the whole issue of making sure the long heel and short heel measurements from the foot bear some correlation to the last?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Straight from the peanut gallery...
I don't doubt that there are several factors at issue here. Not having Rob's expertise (and no reason to question it), I would put that aside for the moment and remark that Ed's comment also strikes a note with me.
I see the facings laced tight together on this shoe and still there is excess. I am left wondering...if the shoe could be laced tighter, would the gap disappear? I don't know if that would cause discomfort or not but my feet probably pronate a little that way and I don't have any issues with the topline despite the fact that my first pair of shoes are probably cut too high on both sides.
An arch cookie seems an obvious solution and looking at his feet, you almost wince to think how much better they would be with an arch cookie. An arch cookie might also take up some of the excess room in the shoe allowing it to be laced up a little tighter with perhaps a bit of a gap between the facings.
I wonder if this doesn't re-energize the whole issue of making sure the long heel and short heel measurements from the foot bear some correlation to the last?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
romango
- 8
- Posts: 854
- Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:40 pm
- Full Name: Rick Roman
- Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
- Been Liked: 8 times
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
This is a remote fitting and it is certainly possible that some of the measurements are wrong. Frankly, I find the short heel measurement to be elusive, even when I take it myself.
My customer reports that the lace gap is even and corresponds to the amount of gap on the last. This could be because the fit is tight across the high instep but still too big in the short heel.
This seems to be a common occurrence, especially with off the shelf shoes, where the the customer has no control over choice of short heel and equates fit to tightness across the top.
But, it seems like his heel would be lifting, if the short heel measurement was too big. Anyone have a take on this concept?
The fitter does have a shank but the insole is thin fiberboard. This would undoubtedly exacerbate the tendency to roll as there is a lack of lateral integrity.
I'm thinking it may be a combination of arch support and short heel measure too big. I will send him some arch cookies and see what effect this has and maybe make the next fitter with a stiffer insole and smaller short heel.
Thanks all for the feedback. It's very helpful. Great to have such a wealth of experience at hand (or at foot?)
My customer reports that the lace gap is even and corresponds to the amount of gap on the last. This could be because the fit is tight across the high instep but still too big in the short heel.
This seems to be a common occurrence, especially with off the shelf shoes, where the the customer has no control over choice of short heel and equates fit to tightness across the top.
But, it seems like his heel would be lifting, if the short heel measurement was too big. Anyone have a take on this concept?
The fitter does have a shank but the insole is thin fiberboard. This would undoubtedly exacerbate the tendency to roll as there is a lack of lateral integrity.
I'm thinking it may be a combination of arch support and short heel measure too big. I will send him some arch cookies and see what effect this has and maybe make the next fitter with a stiffer insole and smaller short heel.
Thanks all for the feedback. It's very helpful. Great to have such a wealth of experience at hand (or at foot?)
-
fred_coencped
- 3
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:32 am
- Full Name: Fred Coen;Foot Comfort Center
- Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
Rick,
Roberts observation of excessive pronation is right on track.About 90% of motion control begins in the heel.An Apex heel medial wedge will provide 4 degrees of inversion[Varus posting or wedging].The medial arch cookie is also right on in blocking excessive pronatory motion.
Ask your client to advise if his old shoes clearly exhibit wear patterns in the lateral heel and medial forefoot Bi-laterally[Both feet].
My guess is that his metatarsals are fallen and the 1st metatarsal phalangeal joint is compromised and custom full length orthotic intervention will ultimately help this chap from further midfoot collapsing.
I have to suggest to you ,first anterior and posterior photos of your client standing barefoot.This will clearly show his medial arch collapse.Perhaps this would help you see potential problems in all long distance custom shoes.Second a thorough bio-mechanical assessment from a reputable certified pedorthist as I also suspect forefoot eversion.That means the the forefoot is everted on the rearfoot.The mid-tarsal joints[longitudinal and oblique]appear to be collapsing.
I hope you will sucessfully fulfill your task at hand.I would add a spacer under the insole against the last for extra depth to accomodate the orthotic device in foresight,3/16"or 1/4" in the forefoot and rearfoot.The spacer could be permanently attached to the last or be a removable spacer after pulling the last.
The long medial counter,arch support and medial heel wedge may be all you need to customize support and fit here.The flexbility vs,rigidity of the flat foot and level of intervention is a clinical call.If the foot is rigid the medial wedge could be extended the full medial length.
Anyway Rick.I would be very leary to take on this task,personally.After 3 trial shoes ,if you could fit the medial wege and/or the arch cookie with masking tape the client could experiment himself,providing you/us too with his feedback.Photos anterior and posterior with trial shoes and barefoot would be revealing,OK.
Rob,
Your observations are always appreciated,well thought and expressed.Thanks to you and others, this forum is a great service in helping me and hopefully others become better shoe and bootmakers and clinicians too.
Fred
Roberts observation of excessive pronation is right on track.About 90% of motion control begins in the heel.An Apex heel medial wedge will provide 4 degrees of inversion[Varus posting or wedging].The medial arch cookie is also right on in blocking excessive pronatory motion.
Ask your client to advise if his old shoes clearly exhibit wear patterns in the lateral heel and medial forefoot Bi-laterally[Both feet].
My guess is that his metatarsals are fallen and the 1st metatarsal phalangeal joint is compromised and custom full length orthotic intervention will ultimately help this chap from further midfoot collapsing.
I have to suggest to you ,first anterior and posterior photos of your client standing barefoot.This will clearly show his medial arch collapse.Perhaps this would help you see potential problems in all long distance custom shoes.Second a thorough bio-mechanical assessment from a reputable certified pedorthist as I also suspect forefoot eversion.That means the the forefoot is everted on the rearfoot.The mid-tarsal joints[longitudinal and oblique]appear to be collapsing.
I hope you will sucessfully fulfill your task at hand.I would add a spacer under the insole against the last for extra depth to accomodate the orthotic device in foresight,3/16"or 1/4" in the forefoot and rearfoot.The spacer could be permanently attached to the last or be a removable spacer after pulling the last.
The long medial counter,arch support and medial heel wedge may be all you need to customize support and fit here.The flexbility vs,rigidity of the flat foot and level of intervention is a clinical call.If the foot is rigid the medial wedge could be extended the full medial length.
Anyway Rick.I would be very leary to take on this task,personally.After 3 trial shoes ,if you could fit the medial wege and/or the arch cookie with masking tape the client could experiment himself,providing you/us too with his feedback.Photos anterior and posterior with trial shoes and barefoot would be revealing,OK.
Rob,
Your observations are always appreciated,well thought and expressed.Thanks to you and others, this forum is a great service in helping me and hopefully others become better shoe and bootmakers and clinicians too.
Fred
-
romango
- 8
- Posts: 854
- Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:40 pm
- Full Name: Rick Roman
- Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
- Been Liked: 8 times
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
Fred,
I would be getting a bit nervous about this project but this is a very close friend who is being a guinea pig for me to try out remote fitting.
It is a bit more complex that I had bargained for but it is a good learning experience. I'm going to try to keep this to just getting him a shoe that fits.
Still, I think we all benefit from some understanding of the orthopedic issues at hand.
I would be getting a bit nervous about this project but this is a very close friend who is being a guinea pig for me to try out remote fitting.
It is a bit more complex that I had bargained for but it is a good learning experience. I'm going to try to keep this to just getting him a shoe that fits.
Still, I think we all benefit from some understanding of the orthopedic issues at hand.
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 125 times
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
Rick,
In my estimation, the short heel has nothing to do with the heel lifting or not, especially on a shoe. The long heel...and this would affect the facings gap (if there was one intended)...would be far more critical in the issue of heel slippage.
That said, if the heel curve on the last is, well, curved enough, even if there was some excess, the heel might not slip up and down. I ran across a number of people on another forum that swore the best fit is when you can stick a pencil between the heel of the foot and the topline of the shoe at the very back of the heel. This was to be done before the shoe was laced up but even so I still find this concept hard to swallow. It don't work that way on my own foot.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
But, it seems like his heel would be lifting, if the short heel measurement was too big. Anyone have a take on this concept?
In my estimation, the short heel has nothing to do with the heel lifting or not, especially on a shoe. The long heel...and this would affect the facings gap (if there was one intended)...would be far more critical in the issue of heel slippage.
That said, if the heel curve on the last is, well, curved enough, even if there was some excess, the heel might not slip up and down. I ran across a number of people on another forum that swore the best fit is when you can stick a pencil between the heel of the foot and the topline of the shoe at the very back of the heel. This was to be done before the shoe was laced up but even so I still find this concept hard to swallow. It don't work that way on my own foot.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
shoestring
Re: One "Last" Question
Rick,
One other thing have your friend place his feet comfortable in the shoes then pinch the counters in the back to fit the sides, and see just how much room there is, than make a measurement of the gap.That should tell you something.And go back to your pattern and measurements and check.Just another green horn though.
Ed
One other thing have your friend place his feet comfortable in the shoes then pinch the counters in the back to fit the sides, and see just how much room there is, than make a measurement of the gap.That should tell you something.And go back to your pattern and measurements and check.Just another green horn though.
Ed
-
relferink
Re: One "Last" Question
All,
Running the risk of stepping on some toes, I agree with the other forum statement that in a lace up shoe, when not laced up should have space behind the foot when pressing the foot forward. Being able to stick a pencil or even a finger in is in my opinion not a bad thing at all. Sure, when you do that you push your toes into the toebox, it would be uncomfortable to walk that way for an extended period of time. On the flip side, there can be too much space, a test of sorts is to have the customer walk without the laces tied (make sure he doesn't trip over the laces and break his neck
) the shoe should stay on the foot, there will be slippage in the heel but if the foot actually pops out of the shoe there is too much extra volume.
This extra volume is important to accommodate fluctuations in the foot during the day. If this is not available you made a loafer with laces and the fit of a loafer is generally considered to be less comfortable than a lace up shoe.
Not that there is anything wrong with loafers per-se, they are just not my cup of tea.
Based on the snapshots above I can't tell if the shoe gaps when the customer is sitting down. The ability to force fingers in your shoe should not be a gauge for fit. For what it's worth, I can stick 4 fingers in along the top line as I'm sitting here though these are more casual shoes .
If the gaping is significantly less when your customer is sitting I think I will stick with pronation being the major problem.
Do however check your measurements and know that this type of gaping may happen even if you are right on the money with your measurements. Just taking up space will not solve it.
The facings on the shoes does appear to be a-symmetrical, tight at the top with some opening near the bottom. That is something you need to adjust in your last once you figure out how to eliminate the gaping. Changing the short heel in itself will not do all that much.
If there is no slipping in the heel I suspect the short heel to be close to where it needs to be. In my experience the shoe will slip if your short heel is too long.
Fred's assessment is right on, this would be a candidate for an orthotic. You should still be able to make him a shoe that fits reasonably well and is comfortable without the orthotic. An extended medial heel counter will help in this case, have it come as far forward as 1/2 the last length (with a normally proportioned foot).
Looks to me the fitter is not lined, I make fitters grain side in. This will resemble the fit of the final shoe better. Currently the sock and the flesh side of the leather will get hung up on each other. The shoe will not form around the foot easy enough and if there is slippage in the heel it may not show till you make the shoe with a smooth lining.
What is the grey leather you used for the fitter?
Hope this helps and does not confuse the situation. First see what the arch cookie does and go from there.
Rob
Running the risk of stepping on some toes, I agree with the other forum statement that in a lace up shoe, when not laced up should have space behind the foot when pressing the foot forward. Being able to stick a pencil or even a finger in is in my opinion not a bad thing at all. Sure, when you do that you push your toes into the toebox, it would be uncomfortable to walk that way for an extended period of time. On the flip side, there can be too much space, a test of sorts is to have the customer walk without the laces tied (make sure he doesn't trip over the laces and break his neck
) the shoe should stay on the foot, there will be slippage in the heel but if the foot actually pops out of the shoe there is too much extra volume. This extra volume is important to accommodate fluctuations in the foot during the day. If this is not available you made a loafer with laces and the fit of a loafer is generally considered to be less comfortable than a lace up shoe.
Not that there is anything wrong with loafers per-se, they are just not my cup of tea.
Based on the snapshots above I can't tell if the shoe gaps when the customer is sitting down. The ability to force fingers in your shoe should not be a gauge for fit. For what it's worth, I can stick 4 fingers in along the top line as I'm sitting here though these are more casual shoes .
If the gaping is significantly less when your customer is sitting I think I will stick with pronation being the major problem.
Do however check your measurements and know that this type of gaping may happen even if you are right on the money with your measurements. Just taking up space will not solve it.
The facings on the shoes does appear to be a-symmetrical, tight at the top with some opening near the bottom. That is something you need to adjust in your last once you figure out how to eliminate the gaping. Changing the short heel in itself will not do all that much.
If there is no slipping in the heel I suspect the short heel to be close to where it needs to be. In my experience the shoe will slip if your short heel is too long.
Fred's assessment is right on, this would be a candidate for an orthotic. You should still be able to make him a shoe that fits reasonably well and is comfortable without the orthotic. An extended medial heel counter will help in this case, have it come as far forward as 1/2 the last length (with a normally proportioned foot).
Looks to me the fitter is not lined, I make fitters grain side in. This will resemble the fit of the final shoe better. Currently the sock and the flesh side of the leather will get hung up on each other. The shoe will not form around the foot easy enough and if there is slippage in the heel it may not show till you make the shoe with a smooth lining.
What is the grey leather you used for the fitter?
Hope this helps and does not confuse the situation. First see what the arch cookie does and go from there.
Rob
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 125 times
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
Rob,
I hear you and I believe you. But I can't say that I understand why that should be. Sure, if you open up the laces far enough you should be able to slide your foot forward enough to bump into the toe box...maybe....
My old last maker E.J McDaniel used to say that if the waist was correct, the foot shouldn't slide forward very much and that would take an effort. I've always found that to be true with boots. I can't imagine what would happen or how we would ever hope to fit folks if the same standard--a pencil width behind the heel...were applied to a boot.
As for shoes, if the short heel is taken off the foot in such a way as the end point above the instep is above and nowhere near the proposed top of the facings, how can it affect fit or slip? I thought we had resolved this in a previous discussion several months ago and agreed that it couldn't??!!
And then there's ladies court shoes and loafers....
I'd sure like to hear a rationale for why...particularly on, say, an oxford...you would want there to be a gap behind the heel before lacing. Aren't the laces there especially to accommodate changes in foot volume during the day? What purpose would that extra room serve, as opposed to say, fitting the foot properly in the first place?
Beginners have questions....
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I hear you and I believe you. But I can't say that I understand why that should be. Sure, if you open up the laces far enough you should be able to slide your foot forward enough to bump into the toe box...maybe....
My old last maker E.J McDaniel used to say that if the waist was correct, the foot shouldn't slide forward very much and that would take an effort. I've always found that to be true with boots. I can't imagine what would happen or how we would ever hope to fit folks if the same standard--a pencil width behind the heel...were applied to a boot.
As for shoes, if the short heel is taken off the foot in such a way as the end point above the instep is above and nowhere near the proposed top of the facings, how can it affect fit or slip? I thought we had resolved this in a previous discussion several months ago and agreed that it couldn't??!!
And then there's ladies court shoes and loafers....
I'd sure like to hear a rationale for why...particularly on, say, an oxford...you would want there to be a gap behind the heel before lacing. Aren't the laces there especially to accommodate changes in foot volume during the day? What purpose would that extra room serve, as opposed to say, fitting the foot properly in the first place?
Beginners have questions....
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
relferink
Re: One "Last" Question
DW,
Don't know if I can answer the question WHY with anything other than WHY NOT?
The ability to move the foot forward and the comfortable place for the foot to sit are two separate things. When you slip the shoe on it should find it's "natural place" with no extra space between the back of the heel and the counter but when you move your foot forward there should be enough volume and give to create a small space. Doing this will cause the ball not to be in the deepest point of the shoe anymore. There is no way you want to walk around like that!
Between the foot finding it's most comfortable place securely against the counter and the laces holding the foot in place the problem that you may expect, the foot continuously moving forward does not happen.
I have to clarify my short heel. It's not the short heel you are used to. As you state correctly, the short heel falls beyond the facings and would have no effect on the fit of a shoe. The measurement I call the short heel is truly a measurement around the heel to the same area on the instep where I would take my high instep measurement and roughly where the facing would end. If anyone has a better name for this please jump in to avoid further confusion
Not being a boot maker myself it would be an educated guess on my part that a slip on boot fits more like a loafer in the way that there is no mechanism to secure the foot beyond the shape and volume. I believe that one of the strengths of a lace up shoe is the fact that is does not restrict the foot nearly as much as a loafer would. It secures the foot enough to keep it from sliding around inside the shoe but does allow it a certain amount of freedom.
Of course fit is an illusive thing and ultimately your customer is the one that has to be satisfied. There are some that like their shoes two sizes too large and than there are some that want the shoe so tight there is no room for a shoehorn when they are put on.
So the best rationale I have to offer; the foot should not move forward. The shape should be such that the foot is most comfortable in a position securely against the counter. The volume on the other hand should be such that the foot has the ability to expand, not just at the instep as that can be adjusted with the laces but also around the ball, toes and everywhere else. A side efect of having this volume will allow the foot to move forward some when the laces are untied.
Oh, and don't forget, this is just
Rob
Don't know if I can answer the question WHY with anything other than WHY NOT?
The ability to move the foot forward and the comfortable place for the foot to sit are two separate things. When you slip the shoe on it should find it's "natural place" with no extra space between the back of the heel and the counter but when you move your foot forward there should be enough volume and give to create a small space. Doing this will cause the ball not to be in the deepest point of the shoe anymore. There is no way you want to walk around like that!
Between the foot finding it's most comfortable place securely against the counter and the laces holding the foot in place the problem that you may expect, the foot continuously moving forward does not happen.
I have to clarify my short heel. It's not the short heel you are used to. As you state correctly, the short heel falls beyond the facings and would have no effect on the fit of a shoe. The measurement I call the short heel is truly a measurement around the heel to the same area on the instep where I would take my high instep measurement and roughly where the facing would end. If anyone has a better name for this please jump in to avoid further confusion
Not being a boot maker myself it would be an educated guess on my part that a slip on boot fits more like a loafer in the way that there is no mechanism to secure the foot beyond the shape and volume. I believe that one of the strengths of a lace up shoe is the fact that is does not restrict the foot nearly as much as a loafer would. It secures the foot enough to keep it from sliding around inside the shoe but does allow it a certain amount of freedom.
Of course fit is an illusive thing and ultimately your customer is the one that has to be satisfied. There are some that like their shoes two sizes too large and than there are some that want the shoe so tight there is no room for a shoehorn when they are put on.
So the best rationale I have to offer; the foot should not move forward. The shape should be such that the foot is most comfortable in a position securely against the counter. The volume on the other hand should be such that the foot has the ability to expand, not just at the instep as that can be adjusted with the laces but also around the ball, toes and everywhere else. A side efect of having this volume will allow the foot to move forward some when the laces are untied.
Oh, and don't forget, this is just
Rob
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
fred_coencped
- 3
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:32 am
- Full Name: Fred Coen;Foot Comfort Center
- Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
I would like to ask a question.Is the vamp point of the last and the foot at the intersection of the ball measurement where the cone meets the forefoot?I generally follow the foot in last design and have never really paid attention to geometric methologies as vamp point or counterpoint, only instincts,girth measurements and general landmarks. I am beginning to feel that the experiences and methods of others in improving our combined methods and strategies is very imperative,and I like when Rob says Why Not...........
I have a copy of Karl Adrians book on American Lastmaking and can not find it after relocating last year and seem to recall the vamp point a certain distance from the center of the anterior aspect or toe box area feather to the vamp point And that doesn`t make sense given various toe box lengths.
On a mean pattern,from the vamp point to the counterpoint more or less there is a line drawn for a womens pump.This line becomes the center line of the vamp pattern and the quarters are then crossed over like in a bal moral or oxford.So I would like some clarity on the vamp point to shed my confusion.
Rick,I was wondering if your last is a side or straight cone and if your quarter facings are symetrical or medial,lateral [or asymetric].
It seems to me the difference between a side cone last and a commercial straight cone for fit and comfort resides with the side cone following the architecture of the foot [1st metatarsal bone] hence good fit and more comfort.
The plaster mold of the foot clearly captures the foot shape and the side cone last is very naturally created.The lateral and medial areas or throat are thinned alot and the cone filled a little to stretch the top line longer and narrower to hold the foot,to resemble or become the shoe last.
If I am correct in the long heel measurement from the heel base to the vamp point being at the intersection of the ball measurement and the cone of the last,can someone please advise me?
thanks,Fred
I have a copy of Karl Adrians book on American Lastmaking and can not find it after relocating last year and seem to recall the vamp point a certain distance from the center of the anterior aspect or toe box area feather to the vamp point And that doesn`t make sense given various toe box lengths.
On a mean pattern,from the vamp point to the counterpoint more or less there is a line drawn for a womens pump.This line becomes the center line of the vamp pattern and the quarters are then crossed over like in a bal moral or oxford.So I would like some clarity on the vamp point to shed my confusion.
Rick,I was wondering if your last is a side or straight cone and if your quarter facings are symetrical or medial,lateral [or asymetric].
It seems to me the difference between a side cone last and a commercial straight cone for fit and comfort resides with the side cone following the architecture of the foot [1st metatarsal bone] hence good fit and more comfort.
The plaster mold of the foot clearly captures the foot shape and the side cone last is very naturally created.The lateral and medial areas or throat are thinned alot and the cone filled a little to stretch the top line longer and narrower to hold the foot,to resemble or become the shoe last.
If I am correct in the long heel measurement from the heel base to the vamp point being at the intersection of the ball measurement and the cone of the last,can someone please advise me?
thanks,Fred
-
large_shoemaker_at_large
- 4
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:41 am
- Full Name: Brendan Balon
- Location: Fort Qu'Appelle, SK, Canada
- Been Liked: 1 time
Re: One "Last" Question
Hi all
DW and Rob
could you provide a drawing of your measure lines? So we are hammering on the same terms. I don't have any pattern books that are often reffered to on the forum.
As for the concept of fit that is a tough on. Years ago I made a pair of zip up ankle boots for a fellow. I thought they fit very well he said no this is a good fit and he slid his whole hand behind the heel. I just I should assessed his level of fit before starting. I made a pair of shoe for a friend with wide feet he loved the shoes but said it felt weird as all his life he had to cram his feet into tight shoes so his concept was to be clamped. So there is both end of the fit contineiuom
I was taught that the fit of a slip on boot and a pump/court shoe were the same, Putting a lot of tension on the cone of the last to grab the heel towards the ball/instep with a inevitable but acceptable heel slip until the footwear is "broken In".
Laces can be for style reasons but more for entry and exit, look at shoes that are rammed on without undoing the laces and they are soon broken some were, usually the counter. Go to the mall and look at the teenagers.
In the same lite a loafer and pump stay on due to flexable construction you never see a double soled welted loafer! Could you build a slip on boot with a rigid sole and expect it to stay on? Could you build a Heavy duty hiking boot and expect to slip it on and function going up a rock face or a 2 mile walk. I think the king of blisters would forever haunt you. Function and form should meet.
Also I dare say for most unlaced footwear the flex point is further towards the heel and the higher the heel the more it moves back further yet. While at the mall looking at the teenagers look at some women's shoes with your wife/girl friend, wiggle them around and watch the flex. If you can find a comfortable pump about 2 inch heel watch how it huggs the heel while they walk and 9 out of ten time there will be a moments gap at the front edges when toeing off. But notice the higher the heel usually the shorter stride length . Now watch some one with a western boot walk and the same momentary buldge occures at toe off in the same area just above the ball of the foot. This is assuming a "normal foot". Now watch some one in high heels walk usually women and see how many pronate and the heel slides down on the foot, as they go to toe off they really roll in and push laterally with the great toe making a very inefficiant gait. and another customer in ten years.
As in Ricks frustration he is trying to make a normal shoe for a foot that needs some foundation work first. Adding an arch cookie is a good start and a fitter with a stiff shank a must. As stated in earlier posts you may as well build in the correction not allow for an orthotic. Not as hard to address as you think!
Hope I didn't step on any toes
Regards
Brendan
DW and Rob
could you provide a drawing of your measure lines? So we are hammering on the same terms. I don't have any pattern books that are often reffered to on the forum.
As for the concept of fit that is a tough on. Years ago I made a pair of zip up ankle boots for a fellow. I thought they fit very well he said no this is a good fit and he slid his whole hand behind the heel. I just I should assessed his level of fit before starting. I made a pair of shoe for a friend with wide feet he loved the shoes but said it felt weird as all his life he had to cram his feet into tight shoes so his concept was to be clamped. So there is both end of the fit contineiuom
I was taught that the fit of a slip on boot and a pump/court shoe were the same, Putting a lot of tension on the cone of the last to grab the heel towards the ball/instep with a inevitable but acceptable heel slip until the footwear is "broken In".
Laces can be for style reasons but more for entry and exit, look at shoes that are rammed on without undoing the laces and they are soon broken some were, usually the counter. Go to the mall and look at the teenagers.
In the same lite a loafer and pump stay on due to flexable construction you never see a double soled welted loafer! Could you build a slip on boot with a rigid sole and expect it to stay on? Could you build a Heavy duty hiking boot and expect to slip it on and function going up a rock face or a 2 mile walk. I think the king of blisters would forever haunt you. Function and form should meet.
Also I dare say for most unlaced footwear the flex point is further towards the heel and the higher the heel the more it moves back further yet. While at the mall looking at the teenagers look at some women's shoes with your wife/girl friend, wiggle them around and watch the flex. If you can find a comfortable pump about 2 inch heel watch how it huggs the heel while they walk and 9 out of ten time there will be a moments gap at the front edges when toeing off. But notice the higher the heel usually the shorter stride length . Now watch some one with a western boot walk and the same momentary buldge occures at toe off in the same area just above the ball of the foot. This is assuming a "normal foot". Now watch some one in high heels walk usually women and see how many pronate and the heel slides down on the foot, as they go to toe off they really roll in and push laterally with the great toe making a very inefficiant gait. and another customer in ten years.
As in Ricks frustration he is trying to make a normal shoe for a foot that needs some foundation work first. Adding an arch cookie is a good start and a fitter with a stiff shank a must. As stated in earlier posts you may as well build in the correction not allow for an orthotic. Not as hard to address as you think!
Hope I didn't step on any toes
Regards
Brendan
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 125 times
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
Wow! there's a lot to respond to here.
First Rob...
OK, now we're on the same page. I agree completely. I know that some folks have different preferences about fit--that's the point I was trying to make when I mentioned the pencil behind the heel. For myself, if I can get into a shoe, esp. an oxford, without a shoehorn, I'm gonna question the fit.
I might add that on that same forum I had a discussion with a fellow who got real testy when I suggested that his preference for buying used shoes off of Ebay (high quality shoes, it must be admitted) that were wider than his own foot was asking for foot problems down the way. I also pointed out to him that any foot bed that had been created by the previous owner was likely to be out of sync with his own foot. And finally I mentioned that shoes can sometimes come with a hidden cost. Once upon a time I adopted a pair of moccasins that had been worn for a while(they looked new) and I picked up a toe fungus for my efforts. I guess that's all neither here nor there but people do funny and completely illogical things...and swear it's gospel--"says so in the good book."
As for heel slippage in a boot...Brendan, in my view the only reason a boot will slip initially is that the sole (and insole) represent about a half inch (more or less) of semi rigid leather that resist flexing. But even so the slippage shouldn't be that noticeable and you sure shouldn't be able to slip a pencil done behind you foot. The thing to remember is that this will never get tighter.
BTW, my short heel is measured from the outside corner of the heel of the foot to the inside corner. My long heel is measured...well, one way I measure it thanks to Rob...from the outside corner of the heel to the middle cuniform.
PS...Rob, your opinion is valued and if I haven't said it before...thanks for offering it and, just as importantly, for taking the time to take mine seriously.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
First Rob...
When you slip the shoe on it should find it's "natural place" with no extra space between the back of the heel and the counter
OK, now we're on the same page. I agree completely. I know that some folks have different preferences about fit--that's the point I was trying to make when I mentioned the pencil behind the heel. For myself, if I can get into a shoe, esp. an oxford, without a shoehorn, I'm gonna question the fit.
I might add that on that same forum I had a discussion with a fellow who got real testy when I suggested that his preference for buying used shoes off of Ebay (high quality shoes, it must be admitted) that were wider than his own foot was asking for foot problems down the way. I also pointed out to him that any foot bed that had been created by the previous owner was likely to be out of sync with his own foot. And finally I mentioned that shoes can sometimes come with a hidden cost. Once upon a time I adopted a pair of moccasins that had been worn for a while(they looked new) and I picked up a toe fungus for my efforts. I guess that's all neither here nor there but people do funny and completely illogical things...and swear it's gospel--"says so in the good book."
As for heel slippage in a boot...Brendan, in my view the only reason a boot will slip initially is that the sole (and insole) represent about a half inch (more or less) of semi rigid leather that resist flexing. But even so the slippage shouldn't be that noticeable and you sure shouldn't be able to slip a pencil done behind you foot. The thing to remember is that this will never get tighter.
BTW, my short heel is measured from the outside corner of the heel of the foot to the inside corner. My long heel is measured...well, one way I measure it thanks to Rob...from the outside corner of the heel to the middle cuniform.
PS...Rob, your opinion is valued and if I haven't said it before...thanks for offering it and, just as importantly, for taking the time to take mine seriously.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
relferink
Re: One "Last" Question
All,
Fred, the vamp point is found in a couple of different ways, depending on who you ask. The method I use is measure the last along the lateral side from the tip of the toe to the center of the heel. Divide that measurement by 3 and set it out from the tip of the toe. Admittedly this systems weak point is the toe elongation. This works well for what I consider a normal elongation, 10 to 15MM. Other systems set out the vamp point from the back, probably more accurate but also more complicated IMO. Experience has taught me when to add a little more depending on the height of the toe and the elongation.
Following the layout of the foot is a good way to go and when working with orthopedic cases using a geometric system does not always work out. The major benefit of using a geometric system is that you get a shoe that looks proportionately better. You can make two shoes, both on the same last. One based on just “reading” the foot and on on the geometric system. Chances are they will both fit equally well but in my experience the one designed base on the geometric system will look more appealing. Just based on proportions and for lack of a better word “optical illusions”.
Brendan's idea is a great one, I found a book showing it clearly so here I go. (notice there is no long heel)
#6 is the short heel, #5 is my short heel or low heel if you will. It's about 2cm below the spot where the the short heel is measured.
I don't have all the books either but am slowly increasing my collection. We may all have methods that work well for us but Fred puts it very well:
Looking into this increases our awareness of the why of thing. Not that there are easy answers but by building an understanding of different methods we can only get better at what we love to do.
I like Brendan's example of watching people in the mall. Unfortunately I don't have the opportunity to see people wear western boots around here. I'll have to wait till my next vacation.
DW, thanks for the kudos. It helps me as well to think through the processes that I otherwise just do. Sometimes over thinking it makes things harder but overall it opens my eyes to consider alternatives.
You bring up an interesting point. I'm no fan of wearing someone else's shoes but I think I rather wear a slightly used high end shoe than a brand new piece of Chinese plastic if those were the choices. A high end shoe would likely be Goodyear welted and the cork in the insole cavity should be playable enough to re-form to a new footprint.
I would certainly use some antibacterial spray before wearing them but I believe when it comes to picking up fungi and such more harm is done around the pool and at the bowling alley.
Well, that's all I have to add for tonight
Goodnight
Rob
Fred, the vamp point is found in a couple of different ways, depending on who you ask. The method I use is measure the last along the lateral side from the tip of the toe to the center of the heel. Divide that measurement by 3 and set it out from the tip of the toe. Admittedly this systems weak point is the toe elongation. This works well for what I consider a normal elongation, 10 to 15MM. Other systems set out the vamp point from the back, probably more accurate but also more complicated IMO. Experience has taught me when to add a little more depending on the height of the toe and the elongation.
Following the layout of the foot is a good way to go and when working with orthopedic cases using a geometric system does not always work out. The major benefit of using a geometric system is that you get a shoe that looks proportionately better. You can make two shoes, both on the same last. One based on just “reading” the foot and on on the geometric system. Chances are they will both fit equally well but in my experience the one designed base on the geometric system will look more appealing. Just based on proportions and for lack of a better word “optical illusions”.
Brendan's idea is a great one, I found a book showing it clearly so here I go. (notice there is no long heel)
#6 is the short heel, #5 is my short heel or low heel if you will. It's about 2cm below the spot where the the short heel is measured.
I don't have all the books either but am slowly increasing my collection. We may all have methods that work well for us but Fred puts it very well:
I am beginning to feel that the experiences and methods of others in improving our combined methods and strategies is very imperative
Looking into this increases our awareness of the why of thing. Not that there are easy answers but by building an understanding of different methods we can only get better at what we love to do.
I like Brendan's example of watching people in the mall. Unfortunately I don't have the opportunity to see people wear western boots around here. I'll have to wait till my next vacation.
DW, thanks for the kudos. It helps me as well to think through the processes that I otherwise just do. Sometimes over thinking it makes things harder but overall it opens my eyes to consider alternatives.
You bring up an interesting point. I'm no fan of wearing someone else's shoes but I think I rather wear a slightly used high end shoe than a brand new piece of Chinese plastic if those were the choices. A high end shoe would likely be Goodyear welted and the cork in the insole cavity should be playable enough to re-form to a new footprint.
I would certainly use some antibacterial spray before wearing them but I believe when it comes to picking up fungi and such more harm is done around the pool and at the bowling alley.
Well, that's all I have to add for tonight
Goodnight
Rob
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
romango
- 8
- Posts: 854
- Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:40 pm
- Full Name: Rick Roman
- Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
- Been Liked: 8 times
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
Thanks all for the input. I've sent the customer some arch cookies and heel wedge to see what impact this has. I will also ask questions based on above input and see where this gets me.
-
fred_coencped
- 3
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:32 am
- Full Name: Fred Coen;Foot Comfort Center
- Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
- Contact:
Re: One "Last" Question
Rob,Thanks for your input.Is it possible to locate this mysterious vamp point in relation to the foot and the 1st MPJ to the 5th MPJ where the instep begins to rise toward the ankle? Naturally this landmark is an arc of flexion purely defined by all 5 mpj`s.
If a thin thread or string were used to create a thin line across the ball of the foot ,would that line be at the joint space or posteriorly at the apex of the 1st and the 5th metatarsals?
When the foot is standing in a shoe and at heel lift as the forefoot is fully loaded the distal metatarsal heads are now pressing the ground,spread wider and against the walls of the shoe and the foot and shoe is flexed say 80 degrees more or less so where is this vamp point and what is the importance of it in the design and function of the shoe,the last and subsequent patterning of the mean form and subsequent performance of the upper?
Man alive you guys I think I`ve lost it ,sorry!I`m off for a ski trip with my daughter and grand daughters early AM,be back Monday to face the heat.
Hey Bill,
Whats the scoop?No fungus among us!
What exactly is the last industries last word on vamp point?Please........
Fred
If a thin thread or string were used to create a thin line across the ball of the foot ,would that line be at the joint space or posteriorly at the apex of the 1st and the 5th metatarsals?
When the foot is standing in a shoe and at heel lift as the forefoot is fully loaded the distal metatarsal heads are now pressing the ground,spread wider and against the walls of the shoe and the foot and shoe is flexed say 80 degrees more or less so where is this vamp point and what is the importance of it in the design and function of the shoe,the last and subsequent patterning of the mean form and subsequent performance of the upper?
Man alive you guys I think I`ve lost it ,sorry!I`m off for a ski trip with my daughter and grand daughters early AM,be back Monday to face the heat.
Hey Bill,
Whats the scoop?No fungus among us!
What exactly is the last industries last word on vamp point?Please........
Fred