Pattern making

[shoestring]

DW,

Your conversion is not a bad first job.Once lasted you can see where you need to make changes,it still seems that the half lining you'er doing is a bit to close on your heel.Looking a that type lining in Koleff example is where I am judging from.Other than that it looks like a fine upper.Just my 2 cents worth.

Ed

[dw]

ED,

Thanks.

You're right, the "inside backstrap" is probably way too narrow. I like what Rob said about it needing to be 1/8 sll at the top line. Tim said it should be half the length of the quarter, but I haven't looked at that in terms of proportion yet, it may even strike me as even better. The limiting consideration is that I have embroidered labels and an oval punch ...I'm going to put my label in very much like the old "green label" Florsheims of my youth. But they need to go in about half way from the back of the quarter to the vamp curve--more towards the heel, in other words.

There's a lot that I could have done different and a lot I could have done better...I'll get there. I hope.

BTW, if anyone else has any comments or advice or critiques about what I've come up with so far...I would appreciate hearing them.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW,

They look ok to me. Don't worry about the quarters looking too high you can't go by measurements of an unlasted upper, when you pull it down to the inside backheight mark it will be right.

I wouldn't have spent as much time on the linings but it looks good. One line of stitching across the vamp lining would have been ok but it does look good with two.

Pity no one will ever see it again. I usually did my reverse counters by eye so if the length I gave looks too long then shorten it. Don't forget you will lose some length going around the heel.

Having said all that, with a lace up shoe there is really no need for a reverse counter lining, so you don't need to put one in if you don't want to.

Tim

[erickgeer]

I have only recently been 'not' using what you guys are calling a half lining, but I make a decision based more on whether there is a back seam, a dart or nothing. The bonus is when there is a full back seam, it is very easy to avoid accidental bulk, if you are running low on a precious lining leather, you can make better use of a hide and finally sometimes the grip from the flesh side is useful.

Occasionally a student will take my advise that the location is up them to an extreme- and they close it so close together that the topline is extra bulky at the counter point. I think DW's is far enough apart that it won't cause difficulty.

They sure look pretty- I've never ventured a proper oxford style, and if the fit is successful, that boot last is going to make a striking looking shoe.

Erick

[relferink]

DW,

Well, they look slightly odd to me sitting the way they are in the picture. When I Consider you used a boot last it explains most of the shape and contours and they would not be based on any major errors. (at least from what I can see) In fact I'm not seeing any errors. Some things I may have done different, I'll get back to that, but no errors.

The back height at 2 3/8” should be fine, possibly a little low but not to high. 2 3/8” comes to roughly 60.5mm. At a French size 42 (US men's 8.5-9, depending on who you ask) the back height is set at 65mm, every French size higher add 1 mm, and for smaller than 42 1 mm lower per size.
If you use the system that used 1/5th SLL you should add 10mm. Or so the pattern cutters handbook tells us. (This system puts the counter point on 1/5 SLL)
You should have the back height marked on the last so that the thickness of the insole really does not matter. Variations in insole thickness are absorbed in the lasting margin.

I'm still not 100% sure I know what I did.

welcome to the club. Your membership card will be mailed shortly...
Seriously; the oxford should be straight forward enough not to give you any headaches. You made it unnecessary complicated with that trick you pulled with your tongue and vamp lining. Short of that, 1 fully assembled upper, 1 fully assembled lining, sew along the top line from face point to face point. Everything else you do is structurally non consequential, it may make things more complicated but the basics stay be the same!
What kind of adjustments did you feel you had to make to the lining pattern?

The fact that you pre-formed your back lining may make lasting a little different, some of the stretch and give you need when lasting to come out of the lining is already “use up”. Never done it that way so I can't really advise you on what you are going to run into. When “laying over” on the last you will need to put some pressure on the vamp to get the topline to pull to the last. When lasting you need to create a firm “lock” on the topline. In fact when lasted you can pull the topline away from the last ever so slightly and it should snap back in place, making a very distinct snapping sound. Like pulling a guitar string to create sound. Your upper will also be slightly large as you have created room for a heel counter that's not in there as of yet. Take some deep breaths but no need to panic yet! I don't know if not using a mean forme would have had an impact on the fit, you'll find out soon enough.

The decorative stitch at the far end of the facing, (does it have a name? pleas help with vocabulary) I would normally not go through the lining. Did you double stitch the top line in fear of not getting the tape caught? Looks nice but I don't find it necessarily. Imagine your top line tape as a piece of rope, even if you don't stitch it at all, just secure the beginning and the end and it would still work. All it's meant to do is keep the topline from stretching, the tape will stay in place as the topline is the shortest way between the two facings so it can't fall down. It has no were to go!

The fancy work you did with your tongue and vamp lining will likely have made the construction weaker. On an oxford if anything gives way with wear, it's the facing & vamp point, the facings will pull apart with to much pressure. The hand stitch helps but the real strength you get comes from overlapping the quarter linings and the vamp and vamp lining. By creating the slots in the quarter lining for your vamp lining to come through you run the risk that with much tension those slots give some and the facing will no longer be tight.

Did you skive the underlay on the lining down to 0? The lining in the quarters seems a little thick and may show through the upper once lasted.

So, that should teach you to ask for comments. For a first pair a very respectable result.

Just like the hand stitch on the vamp a little “corduroying” on the insole simply states “hand made”. Without it, how would anyone being able to distinguish your hard work from a simply cemented construction?
You may have to re-consider the embroidered labels if they get to be to long. I've seen them used sewn on the insole cover so you actually stand on them or small ones in the quarter lining. I'm to young to know about “green label” Florsheims. All I've come across is the “Chinese label” Florsheims, those are the toxic labels.

Hope I'm not to critical, A for effort if only we could get you to use a shoe last.

Rob

[relferink]

Hey Erick,

Good to see you back here. Just saw your comment and I agree that the maker has liberty where to start the half lining. Personality is as much a defining factor in the look as the “standards” are.
You're right that the shoe will be striking looking on that last. When I mentioned that I thought it looked odd I did not mean that in a bad way at all. Just different from what I expect to see.
Fit would be a concern of mine on this last but I'm sure DW will let us know how it fits, even if it's less than perfect.

Rob

[dw]

Tim,

Thanks for the comments. I wondered how you would like the tongue treatment.

I like the idea of a reverse counter lining (it started out as a inside backstrap...from Golding, and now it's a reverse counter lining. Sheesh!) but whether or not I stick with it depends upon a lot of things. Mostly I want to give the impression of extra care and quality.

I know I won't do a double line at the heel when closing the quarters again. I might go for an outside backstrap though...if I thought it was consistant with the Oxford "look."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Erick,

I like your thoughts about the reverse counter lining (half lining?). I think the extra "grip" of the flesh out is worth thinking about. And I too was concerned about bulk at the back seam. Not so much because of the backseam on the quarters (although that did cross my mind at one point--I was forgetting about the heel stiffener) but just that...almost indefinite...ridge that might possibly rub on the heel itself. As I was saying to Tim, however, I am really more concerned about what using or not using a "half lining" says about the quality.

Making an oxford is, so far, an interesting journey. And it is just beginning...add some gimping, some broguing and...zowie! it's a whole 'nuther ballgame.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW,

You can use any sort of backstrap you like, it has nothing to do with oxfords or derbys (derbies?). It just depends on what you want to use, or the customer asks for.

To my thinking an inside backstrap is the same as a normal backstrap but glued to the inside of the upper, not something on the lining, but that could be wrong.

Tim

[dw]

Rob,

No, thanks for the comments and insight. That's what I need. I want the shoemaker's eye not the customer's eye...at least not at this stage of the game.

I have to correct one thing though...I didn't do a "bagged" (is that the right term?) lining--fully assembled upper and fully assembled lining. Maybe you saw that. But I couldn't get my head around what would happen at the facing edge when I tried to add the lining. If the facings are to come together tightly, it seemed to me, then trying to add the linings after the fact would only force the edges apart. Not to mention trying to trim the topline, and right down into that facing junction, when the upper is 3-D.

If you can talk me through those reservations, I might give it a try. It's certainly simpler in concept.

And the facings are actually caught in the vamp stitching, including the quarter linings there. I can't visualize the weak spots you allude to. I can't imagine any construction technique that would secure the quarters and the facings any more securely than I did. I'm open for schooling.

I thought I was being really clever with the tongue treatment, however. The tongue is sewn to the vamp lining and the hand stitch comes all the way through to secure the tongue to the facings.

I'm not sure what decorative stitching you're referring to...these seem terribly plain. If you mean the curved double line just below/inside the facing edge, I thought that was a constant on Oxfords. But I did pick up the technique of using that double line to add the second line around the topline (only partially) from Gaziano's webpage. And yes, I thought it would increase the chance of catching the tape. But he does it on all his oxfords.

As for fit...and the last...I am not expecting much. Theoretically they should fit. But I have always been of the same mind as you guys in thinking that a dedicated shoe last was needed. Bottom line is that I didn't have a shoe last when I got the urge to do this. And I just wanted to see if I could work my way through and enjoy the process. If these turn out anywhere near OK, I will finish them up and put them (it actually there's only one) in the glass display case. Then I will order a shoe last from Bill and start all over again...hopefully a little wiser.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

DW,

I realized you didn't do a bagged lining. Since the bagged lining is so simple, it seem to me that you made it harder on yourself than you had to. When doing a bagged lining everything lines up nearly perfect as long as you shorten your lining enough on your pattern. On the sewing machine you can “fold away” the quarter to get into the tight spot of the facing edge and the vamp. Specially on a post machine. It can be done on a flatbed but with a little more practice. Same when trimming the lining, just fold the other facing edge away. You can do that without putting much tension on the facing junction.

I find it hard to explain the potential weak spot. I can picture it in my mind but not wrap it into words that make sense, not even to myself. Let me sleep on this and I'll try to come up with something. The just of it; by switching the orientation of your lining underlay without a stay stitch like you use in a derby, you create an area that has the potential to slide away over time. May never happen but the area is weakened and as the shoe is only as good as it's weakest link, stitch, lining...... You get the picture. I'll try to come up with a better explanation in due time.

I like the thinking behind the tongue construction and it gives the inside a very clean, finished look. Unfortunately Tim is right on:

Pity no one will ever see it again.

A for originality and thinking outside the box.

I do indeed mean the curved double line just below/inside the facing edge. It's commonly used and makes a great anchoring spot for your top line tape. Does that sewn line have a name? Anyone?

Weren't you thinking about saddle shoe? As it's such a specific American style variation I'm not very familiar with it other than what I've found in “The complete footwear dictionary” by William Rossi. Never made one but it's a nice look.

Rob

[dw]

Ro0b,

I wish you could clarify the business about "switching the orientation of your lining underlay" I wasn't aware that I had done that. Maybe if I said that the quarter lining is anchored to the vamp (along with the facing) it might make what I'm seeing more clear. It seems that with a bagged lining the only place the lining is anchored is at the topline. No stay stitch at all...or is there?

I hate the idea of building in a weak spot...it's a variation of "no one will ever see it." I will...I will know it's there. And knowing, it will gnaw at me, like a bad cup of coffee.

I want to make saddle shoes and I also want to make one piece shoes and, of course, derbys. I'm not, at this point in time, interested in loafers or slip-ons or monk shoes. Although a jodphur might go down good, now and again.

When I was in high school I belonged to a street gang...believe it or not. We were called the "baldies." In reaction to the greasers and the pegged pants and pointed Italian shoes that were in fashion in high school in those days, baldies wore Florsheim brogues and split toes and black on burgundy saddle shoes. And very expensive Wren and Gant shirts and madras silk ties and so forth. And of course the hair was short...almost Ivy league. It sounds funny...but the thing is, everyone in the baldies fought almost entirely with their feet. I had a friend who could kick out a ceiling light. And heavy shoes came in handy for that kind of thing. But can you imagine a "rumble"...and yes, that's what they were called and that's what they were...between the Ivy League and the Brylcream Ducktails? One group is singing "Maria" and the other is singing a whaling song. As long as the knives never came out the baldies usually got the better of the evening.

But that's where my passion for saddle shoes comes from.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW,

To do a bagged lining and sew it in once it is made up you need to trim the lining (or better yet, trim it with your patterns) and remove the trimming allowance back so that when you fit the lining down the facings, a trimming allowance only goes as far as the vamp line. This will enable you to trim the lining before you do the tongue fitting and stay stitch.

The stitching down the front is either decoration, or if you make your eyelet reinforcement the right size, it helps to hold that in place. You can just as easily leave it out if you want to. Unless it is another stitch line you are referring to.

Tim

[dw]

Tim,

Actually I followed your closing instructions in your book fairly closely. I didn't think it was so easy to close the lining that I could use a flatbed sewing machine and next time I might use a post machine for sewingthe vamp on as well. But other than that it all worked out fine.

Oh, I didn't use your tab method either but next time I probably will.

I am interested but not entirely attracted to a bagged lining. Frankly, I am still dubious about the facing/topline edge, as I mentioned to Rob. Why didn't you demonstrate a bagged lining in the book?

On the other hand, maybe I'm just not understanding the process correctly or fully...that's always a possiblity. But I'll try anything once if I understand it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

I have done almost exclusively the bag lining, in my limited experience of about 10 pair (Oxfords) made, and I have always struggled with getting the trimming allowance just right so that there is not the orange peel problem. Sounds like Tim has some tricks to do the fine adjustment prior to sewing.

It usually come out OK with a little wrestling of the lining in to place but it seems difficult to get the allowance just right on at the patterns stage.

[artzend]

DW,

For an oxford as far as I know both methods are bagged linings. One is put in finished (as you did) the other is closed as you go, (which is what I put in the book). I consider that the close as you go method is easier on a flat bed machine and less likely to cause problems fitting it into place. A post machine is handy but most people will (and should) opt for a flat bed for their first machine.

I had to draw the line somewhere with the book and as I have been using the flat bed method for some years and found it simple, that is what I chose.

I am not sure what your problem with the topline is, just go for it and it will work.

I knew a Lebanese Armenian guy when I was in college who had had a closing room in in Beirut and only ever used flat beds. He could close long leg ladies boots and anything else just on the flat bed, he was beautiful to watch. He moved to Canada apparently so if anyone knows Avedis Bagdoyan let me know please.

One day I may do patterns and closing patterns for elastic side boots and zip side boots on a flat bed machine. (not yet though).

Rick, yes it did take a bit more effort to get the lining in place when it is completed.

Tim

[dw]

Tim,

By your definition, I did close-as-you-go. I pretty much followed your instructions on pp. 113-115 (thank you). But I didn't find it any too easy to sew the quarter lining to the vamp lining with a flatbed. I suppose I could have done it but it felt like I was straining the leather too much. And my presserfoot is a small wheel unlike the large one you have in the book. But even on the post machine, I only had a rough half inch clearance in some places---mostly near the point where the facings were sewn down to the vamp.

I thought you were saying how easy a finished (assembled uppers, assembled linings) lining was and just wondered why you used the close-as-you-go method for demonstation instead.

I lasted them today. I'm not sure I like the way they look. The facings are straight on the last, as is the backseam, and the topline looks good...even at the back of the heel. But I wet lasted (gently, oh, so gently) and they seem a bit too far down the cone (might just be the last--some of the "patterns drawn on lasts in HMSFM seem equally far down the cone). Also the vamp curve on the inside looks a lot higher than the vamp curve on the outside. And the vamp curve in the area of the facings seems too rounded--not straight (square enough).

[sigh] Looks like I order the shoe last and start over. Oh well, it's the journey not the destination. It will probably be three, four pair (if I'm lucky) before I am ready to offer my shoes to the public. Would have been even if I started out on the shoe last. And I'll learn something with every pair.

I might raise the vamp 5mm or so...ala Golding...looking at classic oxfords on the "net, I think I like that higher break. Anything you (or you Rob) can, or want to, tell me to look out for?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW,

I will have a look and see if I didn't make things clear enough in that section of the book. You can always turn the lining and upper over and sew the quarter lining to the vamp from the other side. This is easier with a post machine. The little wheel should not make any difference, I have them on some of my machines (or did).

My recommendation is to put your water away and last dry. Wet lasting must change things. Marcell only used it to finalise his vamp but I don't think it is necessary unless you have got yourself into real trouble. Wrinkles can usually be lasted out if you release and re-last.

Raising the vamp is ok but remember you are restricting the foot entry area. The topline being higher on the inside is probably not too much of a problem, it just has to be lower than the inside ankle bone. That is one of the reasons for taking the shoe off the last and having a fitting at this stage. If you don't do that how will you know what to change, and how much?

Good luck with the journey, just keep asking the questions I am sure there are others out there watching and learning from it.

[artzend]

DW,

I have just realised what Rob was saying about your not using a mean forme. With the geometric method you are using a mean forme, it's just arrived at by a different method. It relates to the foot, not a last. With the covered last method you must build your last before making the mean forme, but the way you did it you make the forme before touching a last if you want to. I thought he was referring to your method of taking pattern pieces from the mean forme.

One thing that is not apparent immediately is that there is quite a lot of spring built into the geometric method so the topline will be quite tight when pulled down at the back. This also means that there will be excess material along the lasting edge when this is done and this must be pulled out with lasting at the sides and the extra material distributed evenly. This is not a problem but I wanted to point out how this differs from the last covered method of pattern cutting. Of course you sometimes build in spring with the covered last method but with a standard laceup shoe like you made it is not really needed.

Tim

[tjburr]

Everyone,

NOTE: even if you do not have a windows machine, read on. This program is written in JAVA so it should work on Linux, Mac and Windows though I have no access to a Mac and have only done minimal testing on Windows.

I hope this is being posted at a good location. I know I have only posted here several times, but I have read posts a number of times and find this to be a great resource.

Back in about 2002 I was working on a program for something other than shoes. A year or so later I started reading about various methods of developing shoe patterns based on a geometric method (in older books like Golding and Plucknett and newer like the great Koleff book). I felt this program would work great for this purpose as well.

To make a long story short, I got the program to a useable level for my development of shoe patterns and ran out of time, but it was not real user friendly. I recently started work on it again and have it to a point where I believe it is quite useable for shoe design. It still has work for a more general purpose program, but I thought it was time to do some beta testing if there was an interest.

So I thought I would show a picture of it and see if there were people who were interested in being beta testers. My main restriction is that the beta testers be contributers to this web site since I would like to give a little back to everyone and also I like the attitude of sharing found on this web site. Besides, participation on this web site means you might actually provide feedback.

At present I have not decided what form the final product will take and if I plan on marketing it even. So this is not really meant as a sales pitch. At some point I will have to decide, but for the purpose of shoe design and those who are contributers to this site, it will most likely be free since like I said, I would like to give something back. My full time job is programing, so one contributes how best they can

The program allows a user to develop a "template" for the pattern, and then when a pattern is created the user is asked questions like joint measurement etc (definable when the template is designed). I can make several older templates available (no longer copyrighted old), and if through email or phone conversation I can confirm you own a copy of the Koleff book, to ensure the copyright is not broken, a number of the patterns in this book. My hope is to develop a library of templates. Once a template is created, others can also be created by modifying the template and saving them as new ones.

Patterns are printed out across several sheets of paper with alignment marks if your printer does not print a large enough sheet. These can then be taped together.

Patterns can also be saved and re-opened for archive purposes.

I know this is a lot of information, and probably not well worded, so if there are any questions please feel free to ask or email me.

Once again, thanks for your posts here.

Terry Burress


So lets try an image

5395.jpg

[artzend]

Terry,

I would be interested to have a look at your program. I have the book and learnt from George. I was going to get someone do this for me once but never carried on with it. I figured it should be relatively simple if you knew what you were doing.

Get my email from the link at the top of the post because I am not going to put it here. I get enough spam.

Tim

[romango]

How totally bizarre! I started work on the same concept a month or so ago. I am working on a web based approach but, other than that, I think we are barking up the same tree. As you can see below, I am not too far along. My program is also written in Java. I won't bore the shoe community with technical details but perhaps you would be interested in collaboration?

5402.jpg

[romango]

I forgot to add... as to the question of copyright: It is not clear to me that abstracting the instructions from a book, such as Mr. Koleff's, is a violation of copyright. After all, he is only putting in print something he learned elsewhere. Is it his to copyright?

Having said that, I in no way wish to detract from the rights of authors by loopholing the law. I think the value in the book is the dialog that goes along with the geometric steps. Wouldn't he want to keep the methods alive using the internet?

If folks (or stakeholders) have an opinion on this, I would like to hear it.

[dw]

Rick,

What's with the fibonacci plot? How does it/how is it going to apply to a template for creating geopmetric standards?

PS...I think I would be very careful about copying (using, "abstracting&#34 formulae from an author's work. You are right...we all learn from somebody but sometimes we bring enough that is new to a process that it becomes legally our own especially if published. If that were not true the patent process would have staggered to a halt a thousand years ago. The rule of thumb (and I think the legal bottom line) is that copyright exists when pen is first put to paper--you don't even need to file for copyright. I looked into this a couple of years ago because I encountered a problem with my patterns and formulae being lifted from my books to be used in another person's book.

Anyway, that's my take.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

The design is just testing that I can draw a line any angle and any length from a point that I want.