Pattern making

[dw]

Rob,

First things first...I do have a standard I work off. It is generated geometrically rather than with a mean forme, but it yields very satisfactory results. Koleff and many others used a geometric patterning system very sucessfully.

The lack of angles and so forth on the pattern in the photo is the result of my particular workflow and my desire to maintain a record of the whole process. See, after I have generated a standard, I take some architectural tracing paper and deconstruct the standard...copying off the pertinent patterns--vamp, toe cap, quarters, etc.. I make a carboard pattern of those patterns and then generate yet another set from them adding the lap allowances, turning margins, etc.. In all, I will have three cardboard patterns...standard, deconstructed standard, and nett patterns.

The last is an inch and a quarter boot last but it has a fairly narrow comb/cone. More importantlu, it fits me. I don't know if I can use it, but again that's what the practice shoe is all about. If I can't use it, I will have to order a last from BT/GFS and modify it to fit myself before I can make a real pair of shoes. Better put the caterers on hold.

Now for the real big issue--the one I keep going round and round with--


When I say I want the quarter liners to lay over the vamp liner I mean that the quarter liner edge will be closest to the foot and over the vamp liner--ie., the vamp liner will be sandwiched between the vamp and quarter liner in the seam area. And a line of stitching sewn from the quarter liner side through the vamp liner. That would make the edge of the quarter liner catch on the foot only when the foot was being withdrawn from the shoe. I know that we don't want the edge of the liner such that th efoot catches it when going in.

But!!! You almost have to have the vamp liner on top of the quarter liner in the area of the tongue and the facings, don't you?!! If you don't, the tonge and facings will be hanging loose as goose feathers inside the shoe.

Hey, if either of you have a photo (in colour...demanding ain't he?)or would be so kind as to generate one that shows how it is done I would be much obliged. I just can't seem to "grok" it. Dumb bootmaker, I guess.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Rob,

Didn't you say you had a gimping machine? Or attachment? Could you possibly get a pretty accurate measurement of the actual triangle...you know an individual /\ from a line of /\/\/\/\/\'s. How wide across the bottom, how long each side/leg is?

I am looking to have an attachment made and need some guidance as to what a good size is. I'm thinking 2.5 mm across the bottom and 1.9 mm each leg.


thanks


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

All,

Don't attempt to make your shoes on a cowboy boot last, the back shape is wrong and also the cone is too steep as well. You could leave the facings open more but it's too hit and miss. The back curve is the biggest problem.

Yes you can make boots on a shoe last, you need a shover for the cone and it helps to straighten up the back curve at the top.

I would think that fitting up a shoe last to fit you properly is the way to go, it is not difficult but will clip in at the back. I only used a boot last for shoes a couple of times in my career but that was for particular reasons. The main thing is to get your measurements right.

That image on page 115 shows it clearly. Well I think it does. I will look for the original a bit later.

Tim

[relferink]

DW,

I was under the impression that you had taped your last , cut the detailed pattern pieces of and used those to work from. Not sure what gave me that impression as there is nothing in the posts above indicating that. My bad.
As long as the last is made to the geometrical standard you can work very well based on that. Having listened to Bill Tippet on the forum for some time now I've lost some of my confidence in the consistent use of the geometrical standard when designing a last.
What works for me is to take a mean forme and apply the geometrical setup of the pattern to that. That's not here nor there. If this system works for you keep it up.

I like the idea of being able to trace your steps and record the process. I'm not sure it would work for me as I would end up with so many pattern pieces that it would confuse me. (I'm easily confused you know). By putting all the information in the standard pattern, when needed color coded, I don't have to keep a ton of pattern pieces and always know where to go back to.
It's all in what your used to and what works for you.

I have my doubts on using a boot last for shoes BUT have never done it so don't know if that will work. I would think that someone following this thread has done just that and may be able to jump in here.

Now for the real big issue--the one I keep going round and round with--

this is where I thought you would cave and invite us up to your place for the parties. Not that we need an invitation, we're perfectly happy to just come and crash at your place. (is the key still under the 3rd geranium from the left?)

When I say I want the quarter liners to lay over the vamp liner I mean that the quarter liner edge will be closest to the foot and over the vamp liner--

Thanks for clearing that up. I figure that's what you meant but it's good to clarify.

No you don't need to have the vamp lining on top of the quarter lining in the area of the tongue. The tongue does just hang loose as goose feathers inside the shoe. (like that expression, it's a new one for me) The thing that keeps if from “falling down” is the stance it gets when lasted, you transform that little piece of leather and lining into a 3D shape and it will mostly stay, remember it does not have nearly the function the tongue in a derby has. As Lance suggested it will help to put the hand stitch through the tongue if you go that way.

With orthopedic work the style of choice is derby as it allows the foot more room to get into the shoe so I don't have any oxford uppers laying around, let me see what I can come up with.
I'll try to make it in technicolor® if that's what your after but it will cost you an extra bottle of Lagavulin at the party.


I was just played around with the second video Marcell posted and my eye caught this screen shot showing a different way of sewing in the tongue.

5355.jpg

DW, my guess is that you looked at this and that's what's confusing you. This is not the way I put in my tongue and I gather not the way Tim does it either.
Marcell, I'm curious how this is done. I can imagine just cutting a slot in the lining and inserting the tongue but I can not clearly see the lining underlay lines so I'm not sure how it lines up. Please help us out here.

Rob

[relferink]

Just saw Tim's post after I put mine up. That's what I thought but have never tried. Thanks for clearing that up Tim!
DW, I'd be happy to send you my shoe lasts to practice on. I'll even take the shoes you make on them off your hands.

Rob

[relferink]

DW,

Not a gimping machine, just a pair of gimping scissors.

5357.jpg

I believe our president, Dan Freedman has at one time or another mentioned having a gimping machine.
The width from leg to leg is slightly over 5 mm. (aprox. 1 extra mm per 12 teeth) and 3 mm deep.

5358.jpg

Your thinking about half the size, for men's shoes I would think that to be a little to fine and the effect would fade but it may be nice for women's shoes and boots.
I have seen women's shoes with a finer teeth on the gimping. I only offer one size since that's all I have.

Hope this helps.

Rob

[artzend]

Rob,

I would send my lasts too if I bothered to wear shoes.

DW

I agree with Rob on just having one standard and colour code the lines. The problem with transferring patterns over again is that if you make a mistake it will be compounded and you may not realise it until too late.

Here are some photos from doing my book. I don't think they are any better as descriptions but they are in colour.

\image

\image

\image

\image

Tim

[artzend]

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5360.jpg

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5361.jpg

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5362.jpg

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5363.jpg

[artzend]

Rob,

I used pinking shears like that too but was going to get someone to machine a wheel for my rough rounder so I could take off the cutting wheel and substitute a gimping wheel. You would have to replace the drive wheel underneath too, probably with a brass wheel so you then just feed the work through as you turn the handle.

Tim

[dw]

Tim, Rob,

First, thanks for the colour photos...it makes all the difference in clarity. I presume the grey is the lining? I wish I could see all that series in colour--from mounting the quarter linings on the quarters to the point where you are ready to last.

Second, I probably will have to go to shoe lasts, I always kind of expected it and I certainly will use the Allen Edmonds last Bill has offered me to make any shoe that I might make for a customer. But I wanted to work my way through this process first.

Besides, my personal lasts are not like any boot lasts you might be familiar with.

First, I have jimmied the back curve...maybe not enough--that remains to be seen, but it has been done. Second, I have narrowed the cone. Third, the short heel and long heel fit me to a fare-thee-well. They must on a well made boot or you will get excessive slippage in the heel. Consider that with a pull on boot there is no lace adjustment...you either get it right or it's wrong.

Rob, you posted a link to a shoemakers site --Tony Gaziano. His gimping looks very small. I do admire his work. I wish I had a pair in hand that I could examine. And I am certain the gimping tool that is depicted in HMSFM is much smaller than the 5mm that a standard pinking shears affords. But now I am all ahoo. I have a pinking shears...I know that's not what I want...but with no example to compare to I don't know what size I need to make the gimping attachment.

Re: the lining...well, that certainly gives me something to think about. Yes, I was heading in the same direction as Marcell, although I didn't specifically remember that clip until you posted it. But I do something very similar with derby boots, so my inclination is to do that with oxfords.

Frankly, I don't like the idea of the quarter lining and the tongue hanging loose in there. My own preference is to have the inside be as neat as the outside.

Tim, it looks as if you have sewn the tongue in with the top of the tongue towards the toe and will then fold it back and stitch it down so that it presents a folded edge. Is that what I'm seeing there?

It may be (probably will) that I will not only switch to mean forme standards but reduce the number of patterns in the process once I get my feet under me. But after studying a number of systems...from Koloff to Patrick and a couple of others (including a German text that I can't undertand) I'm not all that convinced that a well designed geometric system isn't as effective as a geometric system over a mean forme...without all the intermediate hassle of making the mean forme. I am willing to be convinced, however, which is half the point to this initial exercise.

Again, thank you both for the time and energy you are devoting to this...it is more than the help and advice, you know--it is the inspiration. I am, even now, raising a glass of single malt in salute!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW,

Nope, the tongue is only folded out of the way for closing and then folded back. If you fold the bottom (leading) edge it would be uncomfortable on the foot. It should be as thin as possible.

Yes the grey is the lining.

I have no problem with the geometric method of pattern cutting, it works, but you may want to look at the ammendments I made to George's patterns.

tim

[relferink]

DW,

Lance Pryor should get the recognition of finding Tony Gaziano's site and posting it originally. I just liked the work and referred back to it.
Wouldn't I also love to have one of those in my hand to examine. Not sure if I would be able to give it back....

His gimping is smaller and now I'm wondering what size his two and one punching is.
Maybe a place like Pilgrim sells retrofit gimping tool sets for sewing machines. Can't find anything on their website. With an adapted sewing machine you could theoretically adjust the size the same way you adjust the stitch length.

Rob

[dw]

Tim,

Why couldn't you incorporate the tongue lining into the vamp lining and slit the quarter lining on either side of the tongue lining so that it may overlay the vamp lining--like you do with derbys?

Gosh, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea...I don't know if it is practical but if it is it sure would be a lot more elegant and refined inside the shoe. And it would secure the tongue solidly. (I hope you know that I'm counting on you guys to shoot me down if this isn't gonna work)

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW,

No we are just going to hang you out to dry.

You can probably do what you are proposing, it would at least give you a precise line to cut into the quarter linings for the over and under bit, the tongue would have to be closed to the vamp lining and trimmed before you started closing. I really don't think you will achieve much by doing it though, apart from your satisfaction.

Tim

[dw]

Robert,

Of course!!! Doh! The gimping is done with the point of the "V" towards the vamp!! So adjusting the depth of the cut in from the edge, along with the length of feed will result in a wider or a narrower "gimp." That makes it easy. For some reason I was envisioning it backwards. I'm going to have one made to fit my 31-20. Anyone else interested?

Tim,

I like it! I'm going to try it. I can't stand loosey goosey on the inside of the shoe.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[paul]

DW,

I am! I have a pair of shoes on your heels, so to speak. Well maybe a couple months from now. But, yes I've wanted an attachment like that for some time.

PK

[dw]

Paul,

Sent my schematics in to the "wizard" just a few moments ago.

We'll see what he thinks of the "do-ability" and what he wants. But if he can make more than one...it may be cheaper or at least more attractive as a project.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

DW,

I'm interested in a grimping conversion kit, currently don't have a machine that I can convert but if the kit is going to be usable on different models it will only be a matter of keeping a close eye on Selma Juncoff's Auction Emporium.
I do have a couple of things that I can not figure out about the setup, maybe you can clarify or at least let me know how you see them.

What to use as a surface to cut on. A brass needle plate inlay may work. I think it would still dull the bit fast, as every "gimp" is a separate cut, how many cuts just on one quarter? I think I would prefer to use a square foot piece of shoulder, just as I use a piece of shoulder when I punch holes, the brass on the revolving leather punch still dulls the barrels to quickly in my opinion.
In HMSFM the grimping machine shown may just be a converted sewing machine. the cutting surface seems to be covered by some type of cutting board and I doubt that a brass cutting plate is used, or at least I don't see it. With this setup how would you make sure you get a consistent and controllable feed? Wouldn't a separate cutting board move around a lot in directions other than where you want it to go?

Anyone else with some more thoughts on that?

Rob

[dw]

Rob,

Since this attachment...as conceived by me...is intended to be used on a 31 class Singer --as an attachment , not requiring a dedicated machine-- the idea is that you will have to glue or cement your leather to a piece of cardboard. You will then have to mount the attachment such that it bottoms out on the cardboard surface and not on the needle plate. This is the way cutting inlays with a needle is done and I think it will work with this attachment, as well.

That said, I have tried to foresee every conceivable problem involved but the first one of these may prove to be totally unworkable (kind of like my oxfords?). It must even be accepted that the whole concept may prove unworkable. I will be bearing the cost, but at bottom, this is R&D, and someone must. And the potential maker has not responded to my schematics and request for quote, yet. So for the moment anyway, it still blue sky but thin air for all of that.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[lancepryor]

Rob:

If I remember correctly, the closer I watched put the leather on either a self-healing cutting board or a plastic cutting board, maybe using rubber cement. The attachment only goes slightly below the surface of the supporting board, since that is sufficient to cut the leather.

I don't think the guy changed the size of the V by changing the stitch length setting, I think he simply used it for one size all the time. Also, I believe he simply trimmed/nibbled the edge to create the gimping; in other words, he cut the leather more or less to size, then merely gimped the edge.

DW: I actually have some uppers that the guy closed for me, and which I have not yet made up into shoes. I might be willing to send you a pair for your inspection, since I don't want to be using these uppers until such time as I am slightly more competent. It might be enlightening for you to inspect the way he has constructed the uppers, as well as the gimping. Let me know if you would like that. I can also post a pic, when I get the time, of the gimping in comparison to a quarter or a ruler, but it is a pretty fine cut.

Lance

If you can figure this out, I'd definitely be interested in getting an attachment; I don't have a machine for it as of now, but it certainly would make getting a cheap flatbed a good idea.

[dw]

Lance,

Thank you for your generous offer to send the uppers. I appreciate it and will gladly accept...I look forward to receiving them and having a chance to see and study a pair deconstructed. Are they oxfords?

When I first started designing this attachment in my head I thought "thin cutting board type plastic." But aside from the fact that this would make feeding the material impossible or irregular, the cardboard backing approach is a known technique that works well. So that's the way I have it. I have enough experience using this technique to cut inlays and ornate collars and toe caps that I am fully confident that it will work as advertised.

Because the 31 class machine is so common in boot and shoe shops; because it is so cheap to pick up used; and because the feed mechanism is so adjustable, I think it is ideal for this purpose. More than that, the needlebar is not drilled--the needle is held in by a clamping action and that means that if the shaft of the gimping attachment is too frail at the diameter of a needle shaft, it can be made heavier and still work.

I do think that cutting with the "v" towards the interior of the pattern will allow the gimping size to be selected. But that, in turn will require that the machine be as flexible as the Singer 31 class machines.

BTW, a good used 31 class, on a table, with motor can probably be had for less than $500.00.

Also, BTW, the knives are supposed to be in shop (my shop) by tomorrow.

thanks again...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

All,

Just an update...I talked to the "wizard" today. He says the gimping attachment is "do-able." Looks like there's about five of us interested, now. He said he'll start looking for the proper materials.

I also got an email from Larry Waller on this subject...he has a gimping machine in his personal stash of tools and it is set up to cut against a dense paper. Hearing that made my day.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

I am also interested but I only have a post bed machine (so far) :}

[dw]

To tell the truth, guys, if this works out and performs as expected, I think that it will afford a flexibility and a measure of control not readily available even with commercial gimping machines. I think this attachment will be able to cut small tight curves better than the dedicated machines. Maybe that's just a matter of skill with the big rigs but I know that I can cut a curve with a radius of around 1mm with pretty good control when I am doing inlay work. So that gives you an idea of what kind of range we're talking about here...not that you'd want to gimp in that tight a radius but...

The whole concept of cutting or punching holes or gimping with a sewing machine attachment is probably better accepted overseas than here. But to give another example of what can be done, I used to do some top edge braiding on my boots. I would cut the lacing from kangaroo in about 3mm (or less) widths and hand bevel each edge. Then I would do a round braid ...geez, I can't remember, I'd have to look it up...I think it might have been a six part round braid of three passes. In any case, it wasn't your standard four part round braid and it wasn't that old crappy Spanish edge braid.

But, and here's the point, I very early on figured out that holes were no good (too crude), and punching slits was mind-numbingly tedious. So... I set a wide cutting blade in the 31-20 and and an extra long stich length and proceeded to cut all the slits for all the braiding in less than a minute. It still took me an hour to braid one quarter of each boot top, but that's another story.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Two photos of my test oxford.

Gee, I made a lot of mistakes...I'm worried about the topline being too high at the heel. I made it 1/5 SLL+5mm. It's already two and three-eighths inches high and that doesn't include the insole.

The lining was not easy. I did it with my post machine and I'm still not 100% sure I know what I did. I mean, I know, but I ended up kind of fudging the lining pattern and I don't have any record of the changes I made to make it fit nor any real formula, either. I like the cleanliness of it though. Next time it's English lining kip for the linings.

I seem to have a good curve in the heel but a quick "laying over" of the shoe on the last worries me. The topline doesn't seem to conform to the back of the last...and it's not what I would have expected--the last seems more sucked in at the top than the pattern! So the shoe might actually gap at the top of the heel unless lasting will take care of that.

Almost ready to last...I have split some insole shoulder down to about six or seven iron and have holed my insole. First couple of holes I went through the grain side of the insole. Not too surprising since I usually use a 10+ iron insole. But all the rest are OK...a little bit of "corduroying" on the grain surface but no break through. I channeled the insole as I usually do but shallower...much shallower. I have been advised that the rabbett feather--the notch for the outside channel is not going to work on this thin an insole. Too late! It worked fine but I may try another technique although I notice that the rabbetted feather is used on a comparatively thin insole in HMSFM.

Anyway...here's the pics...

5378.jpg

5379.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC