Frank
I agree with learning from each other, we learned to take extra from the little toe side of the last (toe) from factory lasts. the abnormal shape makes the toe puff /box stronger. On the other hand I don't like the way they make the met. line in the bottom to make room for larger feet and avoid making the last wide enough.
Jenny
Sorry abouty the secret language. It went really fast because we had to go to party far away.
Lance
I should repeat myself and write that what I have written is what I have learned in school and under three different master and most importantly, just food for thought. That doesn't mean that I look down on other ways of doing it. I can see how a british design with the extra/mid sole would work just fine without the metal shank. metal does rust! I will not use brand names But I have seen too many sole collaps right after the heel stops. Granted they did not have the mid sole for the most part. I would say it depends on the person. The shoe should hold up to that persons manor of use with out being too heavy. The mid sole makes it heavy and stiff that is why we choose not to use it unless the person is hard on his shoes or needs the added effect of a varus/valgus adjustment in the sole(bottom). Possibly more toe spring.
I would have liked to show pictures I had, but thay are deleted from the mac. I never used them. The picture of the shoe above shows a Sewn shoe in the front and pegged in the back with a wooden heel. And our standard shank and leather shank cover. They were part of a test.
We don't make that many shoes of the above mention design that are sewn heel to heel because the welt/rand and gemmen has to be pulled in to the the same slim shank area/shape The welt would add to the thickness of the sole there unless I shived it very then. As you know a mm here and a mm there can look like alot.
Once again, we use a shank cover on sewn shoes also- Even in a 100% sewn with a full wedge heel. Sometimes the cover can be the factory type with the two parts riveted together to cut down on wieght.
When I was learning from my last master I made several prs for a monster of a man that worked with cement forms anf rebar.
They had and insole with the liner glued to it and a steel toe another insole which the actual upper material was sewn to it. Shank and shank cover, mid sole sewn on all the way, and a vibram cemented and screwed on. This proved to be the only shoes that would hold up the the abuse he put them through. This was one of the uppers we always pinned wet wet wet. I wore shorts to do it.
I think I do still have some pictures from these that I had planned to post one day. They are on a cd if I still have any, I'll look.
CW
Lasting
-
ttex
Re: Lasting
4 part
Normal not sandwitched construction. Sewn and cemeted
Shank and cover, then pinnned,cemenmted or sewn
A rough idea of the outline of the insole and shank cover in the normal construction.
Normal not sandwitched construction. Sewn and cemeted
Shank and cover, then pinnned,cemenmted or sewn
A rough idea of the outline of the insole and shank cover in the normal construction.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
ttex
Re: Lasting
Side view of the above shown shoes.
If it was sewn heel to heel it would not be this slim and thin in the shank area.
CW
If it was sewn heel to heel it would not be this slim and thin in the shank area.
CW
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
lancepryor
- 7
- Posts: 662
- Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:42 am
- Full Name: lance pryor
- Been Liked: 6 times
Re: Lasting
Chris:
I certainly was not trying to be argumentative, just telling what I've seen. I am sure that the shank makes the shoe and sole stronger.
Out of curiosity, on the shoes that have had the collapsed soles, was there a leather shank, or just the cork filler that you describe? I can certainly understand how the absence of any shank would lead to problems, but I would love to know if the leather shank that I described can also fail.
I'm just trying to figure out how to do things, and appreciate any lessons you've learned.
Certainly one of the benefits of a pegged waist is that it can be narrower and thinner than where the waist is welted. One of the toughest things to make look really good is the 'bevelled waist' of the finer shoemakers, such as Lobb, etc. The maker I watched did skive the welt in this area to about 1/2 thickness, as well as the outsole. Still, the sewing of the bevelled-waist is a challenge for the maker.
I certainly was not trying to be argumentative, just telling what I've seen. I am sure that the shank makes the shoe and sole stronger.
Out of curiosity, on the shoes that have had the collapsed soles, was there a leather shank, or just the cork filler that you describe? I can certainly understand how the absence of any shank would lead to problems, but I would love to know if the leather shank that I described can also fail.
I'm just trying to figure out how to do things, and appreciate any lessons you've learned.
Certainly one of the benefits of a pegged waist is that it can be narrower and thinner than where the waist is welted. One of the toughest things to make look really good is the 'bevelled waist' of the finer shoemakers, such as Lobb, etc. The maker I watched did skive the welt in this area to about 1/2 thickness, as well as the outsole. Still, the sewing of the bevelled-waist is a challenge for the maker.
-
ttex
Re: Lasting
Lance
I did not take that way.
The collapsed shoes always had a shank and the filler/cork-paste. I must admit that I would use a thinner shank cover if I used a traditional insole of ca 4-5 mm. That way the total thickness of insole and shank cover were the same.
I saw some of the shoe that John( the retired shoemaker) used to make all the time because the cement didn't hold like the stuff we use today. As you know they would sew the welt Heel to heel but then sew the Wooden heel skind(cover) on. You can barely see it because the awls are smaller and they did stuff like that every day all day. I think I have one of the awls here somewhere.
The traditional way of building the leather heel up is because of the same reason. The adhesives were not that good.
I see the the picts are mixed up.
CW
I did not take that way.
The collapsed shoes always had a shank and the filler/cork-paste. I must admit that I would use a thinner shank cover if I used a traditional insole of ca 4-5 mm. That way the total thickness of insole and shank cover were the same.
I saw some of the shoe that John( the retired shoemaker) used to make all the time because the cement didn't hold like the stuff we use today. As you know they would sew the welt Heel to heel but then sew the Wooden heel skind(cover) on. You can barely see it because the awls are smaller and they did stuff like that every day all day. I think I have one of the awls here somewhere.
The traditional way of building the leather heel up is because of the same reason. The adhesives were not that good.
I see the the picts are mixed up.
CW
-
ttex
Re: Lasting
Jenny
it's too late to switch the text on the pictures. Sorry about that.
pict 2 is the stiffer of the methods in which there is no cover to protect the pinned upper
#3 is the normal method.
BTW the insole is a thermal insole I used to make a fitter's shoe when I was working on some lasts.It is stiff when it cools down.
it's too late to switch the text on the pictures. Sorry about that.
pict 2 is the stiffer of the methods in which there is no cover to protect the pinned upper
#3 is the normal method.
BTW the insole is a thermal insole I used to make a fitter's shoe when I was working on some lasts.It is stiff when it cools down.
-
jenny_fleishman
- 7
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm
- Full Name: Jenny Fleishman
- Location: Chicago, IL, USA
- Been Liked: 2 times
Re: Lasting
Chris, here is my interpretation of your post. Please correct me if I am wrong, which I probably am!
First, are either of the drawings correct? And which is the sandwiching method? Thanks!
Jenny
First, are either of the drawings correct? And which is the sandwiching method? Thanks!
Jenny
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
ttex
Re: Lasting
Jenny
The one on the left is the Sandwitch for lack of words. The one on the right is the construction which is more stiff but vulnerable. You could sew the upper to the cover if you wanted to. John used to do that, when making a fitters shoe.
On the normal or sandwitch construction there is no filler the shank cover is the filler if there is a need for it. That is partly why we use a 5 mm thick sole leather. You can beat it down into the holes and still have room to shape it the way you want. I like it when the cover has a good curve. You can also deside the shape of the met. line.
Gotta go
CW
The one on the left is the Sandwitch for lack of words. The one on the right is the construction which is more stiff but vulnerable. You could sew the upper to the cover if you wanted to. John used to do that, when making a fitters shoe.
On the normal or sandwitch construction there is no filler the shank cover is the filler if there is a need for it. That is partly why we use a 5 mm thick sole leather. You can beat it down into the holes and still have room to shape it the way you want. I like it when the cover has a good curve. You can also deside the shape of the met. line.
Gotta go
CW
-
ttex
-
jenny_fleishman
- 7
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm
- Full Name: Jenny Fleishman
- Location: Chicago, IL, USA
- Been Liked: 2 times
Re: Lasting
Chris,
I'm more and more confused! Is the shank cover the same width (narrower than the insole) and skived the same in both methods? If so, then how does the upper end up between the insole and shank cover in one method, and between the shank cover and outsole in the other? Does the upper's lasting margin overlap the shank cover in either method?
In one of the photos you posted holding the layers, it looks like the shank cover would show from the side of the shoe, making the sole look thicker...(Sorry I can't seem to get a handle on this!)
Jenny
I'm more and more confused! Is the shank cover the same width (narrower than the insole) and skived the same in both methods? If so, then how does the upper end up between the insole and shank cover in one method, and between the shank cover and outsole in the other? Does the upper's lasting margin overlap the shank cover in either method?
In one of the photos you posted holding the layers, it looks like the shank cover would show from the side of the shoe, making the sole look thicker...(Sorry I can't seem to get a handle on this!)
Jenny
-
ttex
Re: Lasting
Jenny
I had a chance to pin my wife lace-ups last night. I'll take some pictures alond the way. I am making hers cemented not sewn and with the normal shank cover on top of the pinned upper.
I put a wooden heel on so she can still choose a leather heel if she wants. We will see how they end up wooden or leather. Either way. The heel will be slimmer because because part of the process of putting the heel on after the back end of the shoe is pinned is gently beating and forming the counter so it flows into the heel. If i left thecounter the way it was actual heel of the last and counter would be bigger/wider.
That was a quick explanation of what you are looking at.
I'll start with a pict of the counter and where it is shives and not shived.
Put your counter in water for ca. 30 min. In the beginning it is easier to shive while the counter is wet! It sticks to the glass. You have to be carefull not to get pcs under the counter. Something under the counter means a hole when you shive the rough side.
I use the knife to cut the thinnest possible layer off the other side of the counter to avoid it pulling when it is dry. Some use glass and some run the fine finisher/grinder over it while dry. The rough side goes in toward the last.
What you see in the pictures are the back side of the shoe with a heel screwed on and the counter shaped after wards. Left to dry over night. I will cement it when I have pinned the linner in front.
After that- toe puff/box. Pin upper. Cement, shank cover and filler in front, outsole, and peg
The other picture is the view of the bottom. The shank was there from the fitters shoe so I just pinned the shoe after that. As you can see the last is not that wide which means that the upper can cover the bottm of the shank area when I pull like I do. I'll cut the extra along the shank.= no area to fill with cork or what ever. You should mark the ca outline of the outsole. Then mark the ca outline of the cover ca. .7 mm in from there.
With regards to shiving the cover. It depends on the shoe. In this case, Shive around the sides and back edge ca 1 cm. Let the front be. If the shoe was sewn I would not shive it until after it was put on. In a wider mans shoe there is a hole between the shank and the edge of the pinned upper. Shive the edge of the opper and little bit and the edge of the cover a little. Beat it down in to the hole to fill the hole. Leave around 1 cm for the outsole to be cemented to the pinned upper.
The .75 cm and 1 cm area around the shank cover is where I peg. Alot af people don't do it any more because time is money and the customer should come back for more shoes when the city will pay for more. That is the problem with the branch today. Alot of shoemakers are fighting to servive because the prices have been forced down so low.
I find it easier to roughen the pinned upper to the line where the outsole is going to be before the shank cover and filler is on. You don't have a machine. You will have to shive the cover with the knife. Take your time. I'll stop here and take some pictures of what I do when I get a chance to work on her boots later today.
I had a chance to pin my wife lace-ups last night. I'll take some pictures alond the way. I am making hers cemented not sewn and with the normal shank cover on top of the pinned upper.
I put a wooden heel on so she can still choose a leather heel if she wants. We will see how they end up wooden or leather. Either way. The heel will be slimmer because because part of the process of putting the heel on after the back end of the shoe is pinned is gently beating and forming the counter so it flows into the heel. If i left thecounter the way it was actual heel of the last and counter would be bigger/wider.
That was a quick explanation of what you are looking at.
I'll start with a pict of the counter and where it is shives and not shived.
Put your counter in water for ca. 30 min. In the beginning it is easier to shive while the counter is wet! It sticks to the glass. You have to be carefull not to get pcs under the counter. Something under the counter means a hole when you shive the rough side.
I use the knife to cut the thinnest possible layer off the other side of the counter to avoid it pulling when it is dry. Some use glass and some run the fine finisher/grinder over it while dry. The rough side goes in toward the last.
What you see in the pictures are the back side of the shoe with a heel screwed on and the counter shaped after wards. Left to dry over night. I will cement it when I have pinned the linner in front.
After that- toe puff/box. Pin upper. Cement, shank cover and filler in front, outsole, and peg
The other picture is the view of the bottom. The shank was there from the fitters shoe so I just pinned the shoe after that. As you can see the last is not that wide which means that the upper can cover the bottm of the shank area when I pull like I do. I'll cut the extra along the shank.= no area to fill with cork or what ever. You should mark the ca outline of the outsole. Then mark the ca outline of the cover ca. .7 mm in from there.
With regards to shiving the cover. It depends on the shoe. In this case, Shive around the sides and back edge ca 1 cm. Let the front be. If the shoe was sewn I would not shive it until after it was put on. In a wider mans shoe there is a hole between the shank and the edge of the pinned upper. Shive the edge of the opper and little bit and the edge of the cover a little. Beat it down in to the hole to fill the hole. Leave around 1 cm for the outsole to be cemented to the pinned upper.
The .75 cm and 1 cm area around the shank cover is where I peg. Alot af people don't do it any more because time is money and the customer should come back for more shoes when the city will pay for more. That is the problem with the branch today. Alot of shoemakers are fighting to servive because the prices have been forced down so low.
I find it easier to roughen the pinned upper to the line where the outsole is going to be before the shank cover and filler is on. You don't have a machine. You will have to shive the cover with the knife. Take your time. I'll stop here and take some pictures of what I do when I get a chance to work on her boots later today.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
ttex
Re: Lasting
I got the chance to work on the lace- ups today. I took some pictures to show one way to do it. I did everything with a knife sanding blocks rasp and hammer. I don't have machines here at home. I would normally put the shank and cover on at the same time as the filler in front, but did not this time to make it easier to see. The shank cover is not finished yet, Ill do that when the cork is puy in front.Now that this is a light ladies shoe there is a thermal toe Puff/box. They are going to be a wooden heel and pegged in the back end.
Jenny, you could have the cover close to the sole edge if you dare. If you stay farther away you will not have to shive it so close and risk cutting the upper. If you leave it in more then the edge can be thicker. I left 0.5 cm upper showing. On a shoe with a thicker upper material I would peg the shank cover where the parts of the upper overlap. It pulls them flat.
Jenny, you could have the cover close to the sole edge if you dare. If you stay farther away you will not have to shive it so close and risk cutting the upper. If you leave it in more then the edge can be thicker. I left 0.5 cm upper showing. On a shoe with a thicker upper material I would peg the shank cover where the parts of the upper overlap. It pulls them flat.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
ttex
-
ttex
-
jenny_fleishman
- 7
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm
- Full Name: Jenny Fleishman
- Location: Chicago, IL, USA
- Been Liked: 2 times
Re: Lasting
Thanks, Chris. After the thermal toe box is on, it appears you are putting another layer of leather on that doesn't go all the way to the end of the toe. What is that?
I know nothing yet about pegging any part of a shoe! I haven't seen anyone do it live, nor on any of the videos I've watched.....
Jenny
I know nothing yet about pegging any part of a shoe! I haven't seen anyone do it live, nor on any of the videos I've watched.....
Jenny
-
ttex
-
ttex
Re: Lasting
Jenny
That is the mystery shank cover.
It's not quite finished yet. Once the cork filler is put in front I'll rasp/file it down and do the last of the shank cover. You will want to do it this way if you choose to use this construction. It takes alot more time than at work with the machines.
The skin attached to the toe box is the side stiffener. If you look at the counter. The ends are shived farther in so the overlap of the side sriffener does not bulge out. after the back end is pinned and the (in this case) the heel is put on I hit the counter with the hammer to shape it and hide things like the overlap. THEY ARE NOT CEMENTED TOGETHER. It would make a hard clump.
The other end of the side stiffener is cemented to the toe box. Then shived and shaped with the hammer after it is made wet a little. You have to level the bottom (overlap of box and stiffener) here to.
About the pegging, waite just like in the case of the leather toe box. You need to learn from somebody or practise using your hands and eyes. It takes a while to make something you are somewhat little happy with. Make the first pr you make as good an experience as you can.
When you want to learn to peg let us know and we can show you how to practice. There are also ways to practice without making a shoe. it's not hard, it's just hand eye coordination. some learn quickly, some slower.
Let me know if you need more and I'll try to post more pictures that can anwser your questions.
CW
That is the mystery shank cover.
It's not quite finished yet. Once the cork filler is put in front I'll rasp/file it down and do the last of the shank cover. You will want to do it this way if you choose to use this construction. It takes alot more time than at work with the machines.
The skin attached to the toe box is the side stiffener. If you look at the counter. The ends are shived farther in so the overlap of the side sriffener does not bulge out. after the back end is pinned and the (in this case) the heel is put on I hit the counter with the hammer to shape it and hide things like the overlap. THEY ARE NOT CEMENTED TOGETHER. It would make a hard clump.
The other end of the side stiffener is cemented to the toe box. Then shived and shaped with the hammer after it is made wet a little. You have to level the bottom (overlap of box and stiffener) here to.
About the pegging, waite just like in the case of the leather toe box. You need to learn from somebody or practise using your hands and eyes. It takes a while to make something you are somewhat little happy with. Make the first pr you make as good an experience as you can.
When you want to learn to peg let us know and we can show you how to practice. There are also ways to practice without making a shoe. it's not hard, it's just hand eye coordination. some learn quickly, some slower.
Let me know if you need more and I'll try to post more pictures that can anwser your questions.
CW
-
relferink
Re: Lasting
Chris,
Great photo essay. Takes a lot of work and it's great to see you putting so much into it. From the look of it it's hot there in Denmark as well.
Do you not skive the side linings before putting them on? And do I understand you correctly that you do not glue them to the counter but do glue them to the toe box? What do you glue with, regular all purpose contact cement or HirschKleber?
I'd like to jump back to the post from July 11th and the firmness of softness of a shoe with plantar fasciitis. It has indeed been interpreted correctly by Chris and Eric but here is it all put together in one paragraph:
What I meant to say is that the shoe needs to have structure. If your in pain the first instinct is go with a soft, padded shoe. This often means a soft EVA type sole on a sneaker or shoe. Not good since those shoes mostly have very little structure. This can easily be tested by holding the shoe at the heel counter and the ball, if it's easy to twist the shoe along it's “long axis” and the shoe bends in any area other than at the ball line and especially in the are where you would normally expect the shank the shoe will give you no structural support.
A good example of one of those types of shoes is an Ecco. Very soft and flexible. It has a plastic shank but since the sole is so soft it “floats” in the foam and does not provide enough structural support. I'm not sure the Ecco shoes marketed in the US are the same as what's available on the european market, I talk about the US version here. Definitely not good for plantar fasciitis. If the shoe is to soft there will be to much pull on the ligament that runs under your foot, the plantar fascia causing plantar fasciitis. If there is no shank or the shoe bends in that area over time it will start looking like a banana, the heel and the toe are up and the deepest point of the shoe is at the mid-foot, not the ball. You can just imagine trying to stretch your foot in that direction, hurts just thinking about it.
The structure that is needed comes from a shank but a shank cover / backerboard is necceceraly to prevent to much torque. The shank is much narrower that the insole to the stiffness of the shanks needs to be “widened” (by lack of a better word) No matter how low the heel, even a shoe with a wedge should have a shank in my not so humble opinion.
I realize that in real life it's easy for shoe company to cut out a shank, it helps the bottom line and does not really effect the number of shoes they sell, it's mostly an issue once the shoe gets worn, the shank keeps it from breaking down. I believe a steel shank is the way to go. Not perfect and it will rust a little over time but can be coated by glue so water does not readily get to them and considering the alternatives such as wood or leather it will hold up much longer. The problem I foresee with just a leather shank cover, no shank is that once it gets wet it will not be as stiff anymore. That said I never used only leather so no hands on experience.
Jenny, Littleway is a good way to go if you have a local cobbler willing to machine stitch it for you. Don't try to do this by hand, not worth the aggravation. It's not really needed, as Frank said you can make a perfect serviceable shoe with a cement construction. If you use a leather sole you would not even use heat to take the sole of but some thinner to just loosen the glue bond between the sole and lasting margin. You won't even let it get close to the lasting margin and insole.
I would re-consider putting a welt on, no matter how small it is, it gives you a little “safety margin” if you finish the sole you are a little further away from the upper and have less risk damaging the leather.
DW, One final comment on cement and epoxies. There are many different ones and you have to find the right one for the right materials. The grade of the materials is as important as the cement used. Make sure to follow manufacturers recommendations and most importantly: DO NOT HAVE IT INSTALLED BY UNION LABORERS IN BOSTON. What really upset me about that news is that they used duct tape to fasten some of the ceiling panel bolts. I thought duct tape could be used for any project including tunneling....
Rob
Great photo essay. Takes a lot of work and it's great to see you putting so much into it. From the look of it it's hot there in Denmark as well.
Do you not skive the side linings before putting them on? And do I understand you correctly that you do not glue them to the counter but do glue them to the toe box? What do you glue with, regular all purpose contact cement or HirschKleber?
I'd like to jump back to the post from July 11th and the firmness of softness of a shoe with plantar fasciitis. It has indeed been interpreted correctly by Chris and Eric but here is it all put together in one paragraph:
What I meant to say is that the shoe needs to have structure. If your in pain the first instinct is go with a soft, padded shoe. This often means a soft EVA type sole on a sneaker or shoe. Not good since those shoes mostly have very little structure. This can easily be tested by holding the shoe at the heel counter and the ball, if it's easy to twist the shoe along it's “long axis” and the shoe bends in any area other than at the ball line and especially in the are where you would normally expect the shank the shoe will give you no structural support.
A good example of one of those types of shoes is an Ecco. Very soft and flexible. It has a plastic shank but since the sole is so soft it “floats” in the foam and does not provide enough structural support. I'm not sure the Ecco shoes marketed in the US are the same as what's available on the european market, I talk about the US version here. Definitely not good for plantar fasciitis. If the shoe is to soft there will be to much pull on the ligament that runs under your foot, the plantar fascia causing plantar fasciitis. If there is no shank or the shoe bends in that area over time it will start looking like a banana, the heel and the toe are up and the deepest point of the shoe is at the mid-foot, not the ball. You can just imagine trying to stretch your foot in that direction, hurts just thinking about it.
The structure that is needed comes from a shank but a shank cover / backerboard is necceceraly to prevent to much torque. The shank is much narrower that the insole to the stiffness of the shanks needs to be “widened” (by lack of a better word) No matter how low the heel, even a shoe with a wedge should have a shank in my not so humble opinion.
I realize that in real life it's easy for shoe company to cut out a shank, it helps the bottom line and does not really effect the number of shoes they sell, it's mostly an issue once the shoe gets worn, the shank keeps it from breaking down. I believe a steel shank is the way to go. Not perfect and it will rust a little over time but can be coated by glue so water does not readily get to them and considering the alternatives such as wood or leather it will hold up much longer. The problem I foresee with just a leather shank cover, no shank is that once it gets wet it will not be as stiff anymore. That said I never used only leather so no hands on experience. Jenny, Littleway is a good way to go if you have a local cobbler willing to machine stitch it for you. Don't try to do this by hand, not worth the aggravation. It's not really needed, as Frank said you can make a perfect serviceable shoe with a cement construction. If you use a leather sole you would not even use heat to take the sole of but some thinner to just loosen the glue bond between the sole and lasting margin. You won't even let it get close to the lasting margin and insole.
I would re-consider putting a welt on, no matter how small it is, it gives you a little “safety margin” if you finish the sole you are a little further away from the upper and have less risk damaging the leather.
DW, One final comment on cement and epoxies. There are many different ones and you have to find the right one for the right materials. The grade of the materials is as important as the cement used. Make sure to follow manufacturers recommendations and most importantly: DO NOT HAVE IT INSTALLED BY UNION LABORERS IN BOSTON.
What really upset me about that news is that they used duct tape to fasten some of the ceiling panel bolts. I thought duct tape could be used for any project including tunneling.... Rob
-
ttex
Re: Lasting
Thanks Rob
The hard part was to remember to take pictures, so I took alot (this was half of them). I wanted to work on her boots anyway. Watching sick kids, hospital appointments and family trips have just made it hard to get it done. Vacation is over with next Mon. Yuk!
It is hot here now!! The wife burned her butt yesterday, she never burns!
Jenny, I stopped the side stiffener so far forwards so you would have room to re-do the shiving if you mess up. If you cut it off before the toe box, you will have to break the shoe down and put some more in. I also showed the twist of the pincers that can help in the above shown case, or cause big problems. It is cemented to the to box with normal cement. Be sure to look at the cement ca. 0.5 cm after the thermal material. That helps hide it to. With time you will not have to do it. If you use the thermal material you can heat it and beat it with the hammer until the edge is gone. (on the shived thermal box material.)
The last thing I can think of is the shank was sanded to allow for better cement attachment.
Rob, at the first place (orth. maker) We were told to use klæber to attach the counter to the s-stiffener. and rubber cement to attach the s-stiffener to the t-box. Something about reshaping the toe box if need be. I vever bought it.
At the next shop I was told not to use klæber to attach the s-stiffener and the counter. ( It is cemented on the bottom like the rest) It’s the same idea as not getting the klæber anywhere close to the edge of the counter to avoid a hard edge. When I checked the shoes I had made I found the hard part that could bother the arch area when it is tight agianst the foot. The hard part is/was keeping the stiffener in place when pinning. You get used to it.
The attachment at the t-box is now done with normal cement. And yes The stiffener is shived. I like to do it ca 1 cm. I also started turning the stiffener with the rough out away from the last to keep the strength after shiving and it makes it easy to shive or sand. Jenny, you do not want the stiffener to stretch length wise.
I have seen people use every possible cement etc. on the box when pinning the upper over the toe. Normal cement. water based( slow drying), rubber cem.,and klæber like my self. I even seen wood glue used. I spread a thin layer over the box staying 1 cm away from the back edge pull the upper over and back again. Spread another thin layer ( with my finger tip) and pin. You have to be careful about color-bleeding on some materials. Sometimes I use rubber cem. on the back side of the upper just like in the counter area.
Ecco is not a good shoe in alot of way anymore.
Jenny put the shank cover on after the welt if you use one.
I must admit I feel I have a foot in two time periods. I like things like an insole that goes up to support the arch and still is narrow to loook at. I also like the idea of extra support on the counter made of leather( in the case of a varus?) instead of thermal materials. I also like cold polish and irons on the bottom of the sole to bond the two together. But I like the idea of wide carbon fiber shanks found in some factory high heels, also in the place of steel toes.
I have to go
here is another pict.
CW
The hard part was to remember to take pictures, so I took alot (this was half of them). I wanted to work on her boots anyway. Watching sick kids, hospital appointments and family trips have just made it hard to get it done. Vacation is over with next Mon. Yuk!
It is hot here now!! The wife burned her butt yesterday, she never burns!
Jenny, I stopped the side stiffener so far forwards so you would have room to re-do the shiving if you mess up. If you cut it off before the toe box, you will have to break the shoe down and put some more in. I also showed the twist of the pincers that can help in the above shown case, or cause big problems. It is cemented to the to box with normal cement. Be sure to look at the cement ca. 0.5 cm after the thermal material. That helps hide it to. With time you will not have to do it. If you use the thermal material you can heat it and beat it with the hammer until the edge is gone. (on the shived thermal box material.)
The last thing I can think of is the shank was sanded to allow for better cement attachment.
Rob, at the first place (orth. maker) We were told to use klæber to attach the counter to the s-stiffener. and rubber cement to attach the s-stiffener to the t-box. Something about reshaping the toe box if need be. I vever bought it.
At the next shop I was told not to use klæber to attach the s-stiffener and the counter. ( It is cemented on the bottom like the rest) It’s the same idea as not getting the klæber anywhere close to the edge of the counter to avoid a hard edge. When I checked the shoes I had made I found the hard part that could bother the arch area when it is tight agianst the foot. The hard part is/was keeping the stiffener in place when pinning. You get used to it.
The attachment at the t-box is now done with normal cement. And yes The stiffener is shived. I like to do it ca 1 cm. I also started turning the stiffener with the rough out away from the last to keep the strength after shiving and it makes it easy to shive or sand. Jenny, you do not want the stiffener to stretch length wise.
I have seen people use every possible cement etc. on the box when pinning the upper over the toe. Normal cement. water based( slow drying), rubber cem.,and klæber like my self. I even seen wood glue used. I spread a thin layer over the box staying 1 cm away from the back edge pull the upper over and back again. Spread another thin layer ( with my finger tip) and pin. You have to be careful about color-bleeding on some materials. Sometimes I use rubber cem. on the back side of the upper just like in the counter area.
Ecco is not a good shoe in alot of way anymore.
Jenny put the shank cover on after the welt if you use one.
I must admit I feel I have a foot in two time periods. I like things like an insole that goes up to support the arch and still is narrow to loook at. I also like the idea of extra support on the counter made of leather( in the case of a varus?) instead of thermal materials. I also like cold polish and irons on the bottom of the sole to bond the two together. But I like the idea of wide carbon fiber shanks found in some factory high heels, also in the place of steel toes.
I have to go
here is another pict.
CW
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 125 times
- Contact:
Re: Lasting
I apologize if this comes off a bit contrarian, but I just don't see it. Nor do I think that using a shank cover, especially in men's and women's shoes is particularly widespread outside of Denmark. That's not to say it is wrong nor even that it is not a good idea--any technique that has a good rationale behind it...a rationale that serves the notion of quality (as opposed to expediency)... is a very good idea in my book.
But I think that the problem can be better addressed if the insole cavity is filled (as it should be, and almost always is, at one stage or another) before the shank is positioned and then the shank secured in place. If this is done, the shank cannot move and the sole itself will fill in around the shank. I have done this even on boots that were welted all the way back to the sideseam, althought hte technique is a bit different.
Another issue is that all too often a flat shank of thin or very flexible metal is used. I understand the thinking behind that approach (at least I think I do) but I think it is somewhat along the lines of "making slippers for the Pope"--not for serious wear. I almost always use a ribbed shank that is of the heaviest gauge that I can obtain. But then, I'm making...theoretically, at least...deliberately functional footwear.
As far a rusting is concerned, as I think Robert mentioned, a heavy coating of all-purpose cement will go a long way towards retarding it. But I generally wrap my shanks in clear duct tape (I used to use wide strapping tape).
The following photos depict the filling of the shank cavity and the shank, properly positioned (well under the heel stack), and secured.
Having said all that, if a shank cover is used such that it forces the outsole into a "cupped' configuration, you have what is known in some circles as "box beam" construction. And while it may, indeed, add some additional rigidity to the sole, I don't see that it it is necessary for a sound shoe (or even particularly pleasing) unless the metal shank is to be omitted altogether. Indeed, there are a few bootmakers (usually making work boots) that use box beam construction with a leather shank/filler rather than any metal whatsoever here in the States. Whites (a high end workboot) used to use such a technique...I don't know whether they still do. But their heel heights were typically up around inch and a half...and they gained their reputation for at least decent quality during those years.
But it is pretty hard to argue with justifiably reknown shoemakers such as Lobbs of London. The few pair of Lobbs that I have seen and handled showed no evidence of a cupped outsole or anything more than an incidental shank cover. I don't know about anyone else but I get to feeling a little uneasy when I try to impose my opinion on top of something like two hundred years of experience and tradition. At some point, I want to have a dern good reason for ignoring the "Elders of the Trade."
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
But I think that the problem can be better addressed if the insole cavity is filled (as it should be, and almost always is, at one stage or another) before the shank is positioned and then the shank secured in place. If this is done, the shank cannot move and the sole itself will fill in around the shank. I have done this even on boots that were welted all the way back to the sideseam, althought hte technique is a bit different.
Another issue is that all too often a flat shank of thin or very flexible metal is used. I understand the thinking behind that approach (at least I think I do) but I think it is somewhat along the lines of "making slippers for the Pope"--not for serious wear. I almost always use a ribbed shank that is of the heaviest gauge that I can obtain. But then, I'm making...theoretically, at least...deliberately functional footwear.
As far a rusting is concerned, as I think Robert mentioned, a heavy coating of all-purpose cement will go a long way towards retarding it. But I generally wrap my shanks in clear duct tape (I used to use wide strapping tape).
The following photos depict the filling of the shank cavity and the shank, properly positioned (well under the heel stack), and secured.
Having said all that, if a shank cover is used such that it forces the outsole into a "cupped' configuration, you have what is known in some circles as "box beam" construction. And while it may, indeed, add some additional rigidity to the sole, I don't see that it it is necessary for a sound shoe (or even particularly pleasing) unless the metal shank is to be omitted altogether. Indeed, there are a few bootmakers (usually making work boots) that use box beam construction with a leather shank/filler rather than any metal whatsoever here in the States. Whites (a high end workboot) used to use such a technique...I don't know whether they still do. But their heel heights were typically up around inch and a half...and they gained their reputation for at least decent quality during those years.
But it is pretty hard to argue with justifiably reknown shoemakers such as Lobbs of London. The few pair of Lobbs that I have seen and handled showed no evidence of a cupped outsole or anything more than an incidental shank cover. I don't know about anyone else but I get to feeling a little uneasy when I try to impose my opinion on top of something like two hundred years of experience and tradition. At some point, I want to have a dern good reason for ignoring the "Elders of the Trade."
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
ttex
Re: Lasting
DW
We are just on two different planets. I could tell you about customers that left my last master(Jakob) and had shoes made by Lobb and came back to us again. It will not help.
It's a big world out there and there is plenty of of room for all of us. Thank God
Any Hoo, have a nice wk-end
CW
We are just on two different planets. I could tell you about customers that left my last master(Jakob) and had shoes made by Lobb and came back to us again. It will not help.
It's a big world out there and there is plenty of of room for all of us. Thank God
Any Hoo, have a nice wk-end
CW
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 125 times
- Contact:
Re: Lasting
Chris,
Naw, just different traditions...no harm , no foul.
I wouldn't make too much of that, if I were you. I've had customers who lived in Texas...with access to, and having had boots made by, some rather well known bootmakers. Yet they came to me--some of them were dissatisfied, some just wanted something different. And I am sure that it works the other way, too. I am just finishing a pair of Derby boots (the fourth pair) for a fellow who buys or bought from Lobbs. Fact is, he sent me one pair of his Lobbs to use as a rough model. I thought I did a far better job of finishing than Lobbs had. And my construction techniques were better, as well. But even though he made a great commotion about how well he likes the fit, etc., I am dead certain that the next time he's in Lobbs of London and sees something he fancies, he will buy them toot sweet.
I make boots pretty much the way you describe, you know. With a heavy shank cover and a cupped outsole and pegged. I actually admire what you're doing and the way your master taught you. But I've seen boots...old boots (over a century old) and well worn, that were not constructed that way and there was no apparent downside. And I've seen men's and womens shoes...from all manner of makers--Lobbs, Edmund Allen, Ferregano, and the examples in Handmade Shoes for Men that were not made that way. I've also seen boots made with built-in shank covers of plastic or fiberboard (what we call a "cottage" ) that were the most miserable examples of wasted money I could imagine. They all had the cupped outsole. And it was there for show only--no obvious benefit to be had from that technique. It's not a given, is all I'm saying.
Amen to that.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
(Message edited by dw on August 05, 2006)
We are just on two different planets.
Naw, just different traditions...no harm , no foul.
I could tell you about customers that left my last master(Jakob) and had shoes made by Lobb and came back to us again.
I wouldn't make too much of that, if I were you. I've had customers who lived in Texas...with access to, and having had boots made by, some rather well known bootmakers. Yet they came to me--some of them were dissatisfied, some just wanted something different. And I am sure that it works the other way, too. I am just finishing a pair of Derby boots (the fourth pair) for a fellow who buys or bought from Lobbs. Fact is, he sent me one pair of his Lobbs to use as a rough model. I thought I did a far better job of finishing than Lobbs had. And my construction techniques were better, as well. But even though he made a great commotion about how well he likes the fit, etc., I am dead certain that the next time he's in Lobbs of London and sees something he fancies, he will buy them toot sweet.
I make boots pretty much the way you describe, you know. With a heavy shank cover and a cupped outsole and pegged. I actually admire what you're doing and the way your master taught you. But I've seen boots...old boots (over a century old) and well worn, that were not constructed that way and there was no apparent downside. And I've seen men's and womens shoes...from all manner of makers--Lobbs, Edmund Allen, Ferregano, and the examples in Handmade Shoes for Men that were not made that way. I've also seen boots made with built-in shank covers of plastic or fiberboard (what we call a "cottage" ) that were the most miserable examples of wasted money I could imagine. They all had the cupped outsole. And it was there for show only--no obvious benefit to be had from that technique. It's not a given, is all I'm saying.
It's a big world out there and there is plenty of of room for all of us. Thank God
Amen to that.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
(Message edited by dw on August 05, 2006)
-
5shot
Re: Lasting
Indeed, there are a few bootmakers (usually making work boots) that use box beam construction with a leather shank/filler rather than any metal whatsoever here in the States. Whites (a high end workboot) used to use such a technique...I don't know whether they still do.
Yes, Whites still uses an all leather construction. Their advertising talks about its superiority to a steel shank, since there is no steel shank to rust. I don't know of anyone I have ever met that didn't think that Whites were the best work boot you could buy (I grew up in Spokane). I like mine, but they are a work boot, not a custom boot.
That being said, I always wondered why everyone else uses a steel shank when a pair of Whites lasts a decade of hard use and can rebuilt till the end of time (complete rebuilds are still only $165.00 with a new Vamp, Counter and Sole).
Different styles are what makes them all great, I guess.
Of course I have no experience what so ever with bootmaking (I am a holster maker), just an interest in learning how it is done.
John
(Message edited by 5shot on August 09, 2006)
-
ttex
Re: Lasting
Jenny
The lace-up boot lasts big toe.
The lace-up boot lasts big toe.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.