Bristling at the very suggestion

[ttex]

Mark

I thought I was going to have to take the same road you are starting on.

I used a normal inseaming cord that I made on a trial boot. 9 strings to avoid it breaking when I pulled on it. I might even make a 11 or 13 cord if I did it today. i always use fishing line for a needle. When I thought I was going to have to do everthing by hand I made a large wooden vise to sew long lenths with out moving things. I haven't had to use it yet, but I have it now.

Hope it helps
CW

[tommick]

Here's the blind leading the blind but I'll go on anyway.

I handstitched the sideseams on my first 7 -8 pairs of boots including some really tall ones and got really pretty good results for a novice. I used the general techniques in D.W.'s book plus general handstitching techniques from an old Al Stohlman book and it just wasn't that hard but it is somewhat time consuming.

I staple the sideseams together starting at the counter cover/vamp junction (CCVJ)and then staple up to the topbead forcing everything to be in line. Then I align and staple down from the CCVJ. I start at the topbead and stitch my way down but I use harness needles. I have to pass one needle with thread through before passing the other in the opposite direction and yes it's probably much better to use bristles but ---.

On the second needle pass while the needle is halfway through the hole I pull back on the lazy thread (sailing term, sort of) to make sure that I haven't pierced it. I tighten the stitch and then just do this a bunch more times and make them all straight as possible.

Forget the forest and work on the trees. If each stitch is done well then the result seems to be quite good.

I use a diamond shaped awl - kept super sharp and my stapler is a Salco P694 and I bought my stitching clamp on Ebay for $20.

I sideseam now with a Tippman Aerostitch which takes less than a minute per seam (expensive but either you want to make boots or just fool around with the process). I have developed Dupuytren's Contracture in my left hand so machine stitching is better for me now anyway.

[firefly]

Christopher and Thomas,

Thanks for the great feedback. Since this is my first pair I will have to do them by hand. After I make the first pair for my wife I may get budget approval for a Tippman.

I have the Al Stohlman book that you are refering to. I will pull it out and try to follow some of the technique.

Where did you guys get your thread and how did you go about making up the 9 cord or can you just buy it as such. Did you use nylon.

I think Stohlman recommends 4 times the lenght of thread. Does this sound right.

Did you use a stitch wheel to mark the spacing of the stitches.

Thanks again for the help.

Mark

[ttex]

Mark

I used the same barbour line that we use to made inseaming cords with. When we make shoes we use 9 for women and 11 for men because the cord has become smaller through the yrs. (that's what my former master says) You can still pull an 11 in half but you will not do it with out pulling fairly hard. You can do a search for "Barbour Cambell threads tld" made in Irland.

About the way Thomas pulls the cord through one side at a time, That can be a good idea to avoid a giant hole. I do the same some times when inseaming. That is why I always try to make the fishing line needle long ca. 25cm/10 inches. Its gives room to cut the tip off and sharpen it if it becomes to soft.

Chris

[dw]

Mark,

Well, I can't add much to the good advice you've been getting. But when I do need to handstitch a side seam, I generally already have the holes marked and punched by machine--this might be in a situation where I've accidentally flipped a stitch over the side welt (easy to do if you're stitching freehand on the machine but not that easy if you've got a roller guide of some sort) and in that circumstance I probably wouldn't find out till I was done stitching by machine and maybe not til I had turned the boot. At which point, I'd have to pull all the stitches and re-stitch by hand.

So...I use the same thread as in the machine...Barbour or Bulldog 6 1/2 soft synthetic repair thread (dacron--much stronger than linen) and two wire bristles. I make the wire bristles by bending a 12 gauge steel guitar string over a half inch wide steel construction bracket (to form the eye) and twisting pretty tightly. Using the steel bristles, I can feed both at the same time and not have to worry about "passing" or making the hole too big. Other than that it is a "shoemakers" stitch and better than the machine stitch, in my opinion.

If I recall Jake always used a stitching pony although I don't know how he spaced the stitches or how he kept them an even distance from the folded edge of the sidewelt.

Take heart in knowing that once upon a time everyone did it by hand and to this day there are still some oldtimers who prefer to stitch by hand simply because the shoemaker's stitch is so much better than what the machine leaves behind.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tomo]

Hey DW,
being a saddler (saddlemaker) I was taught to do all my handsewing by eye. Pricking wheels or irons were never used - infact there weren't any in the shop, and I did and still do many show bridles at 10 or 12 to the inch. Now however, I'm tending to use them (wheels) as I need to wear glasses sometimes for close work, (and I can't get used to that,) so I have been using a wheel on some jobs. I did a horses head on a wallet once at 16 and thought I was pretty clever, But the guy that did the shoes at 64 tpi, well what can you say, he's up there with Randy and Claudia...

Mark, Al Stolman's book is good as it shows you how to work the thread awl, and needles, that takes some getting use too. The process is very hard to explain and they do it well. I saw the book recently in some stuff I bought and thought I'd follow Anne's explanation, but soon realised I do it exactly the same way. After awhile it becomes second nature and you don't even realise you're doing it.

More power to y'awls.
T.

[jake]

Hey Gang,

I'm truly honored to be labeled "da man" in ANY category by Dee-Dubb. Thanks Partner!

For those who have Dee-Dubb's book, follow it to the letter on "lining-up" the vamp/counter cover junction. There's not a better method of lining up ANY point on the sideseam consistantly.

Basically, I use Barbour's 7 cord linen and harness needles to sew the sideseam. Beeswax and linen will do a great job holding the stitches tight throughout the life of the boot. Dacron will stretch slightly and grinning will occur while hoisting during the lasting process. Even though the grinning will "walk-out" after the boot is worn for a few days, I never like seeing it on the boot, at any time. I have never broke 7 cord while stitching, and I'm pretty "heavy" handed. I have a stitching horse that I use to hold the components while sewing. I think I showed a pic of it in the tools section.

If you're looking to learn handstitching, there's not a better reference than Al Stohlman's book on handsewing. I go for "quality" not quantity. There's not a better stitch than a handstitch. I've seen saddles with the thread worn completely away on both sides of the leather, and the item is still functional due to the "waxed" plug within the leather layers. A machine stitch will not hold up to the same degree of abuse.

As Dee-Dubb mentioned, I'm extremely busy right now. I apologize for becoming a "ghost" on the Forum. I will try to work up a presentation on my method of handsewing the sideseam in the very near future.

As a side note, Al Stohlman use to be my hero, but that was BDD......(before Dee-Dubb).

Take care everyone! I sure do miss ya!

[firefly]

Hey Guys,

I am really glad to see so many references to Stohlman. I have used his books for leather work in the past and I have actually done some hand stitching following his methods. I did not know that it would be so applicable.

As with most of your comments I think I agree that there is some sense of connectness (is that a word) with the craft when the machine is not the medium. Of course larger scale production would be an issue.

Could someone forward me a source for Barbour's. I'm running into some road blocks finding it. It's probably just me.

Thanks everyone,

Mark

[tommick]

Just a note about marking where to stitch. I have a channeler set up for marking the location of the stitchline. It's not used for anything else. I think that it's set for 5/32 inch. I run it along the edge of the leather after stapling the front and back panels together (with sidewelt in-between of course). I then go back and mark this line with a silver pencil kept wet and I wear magnifying lenses.

BTW I forgot to mention that I always sew the welt to the front or back panel before I staple anything together. Here's the only place that I diverge from D.W.'s book - I stitch the welt to the front OR back panel so that working from the topbead "down" with the topbead pointed to my right I can pierce the panel that has the sidewelt stitched to it. Wow, this is a little confusing! I always stick the awl through the panel that has the sidewelt sewn to it and the topbead is pointing to my right. This is most comfortable for me and I don't have to pierce much leather to get to the sidewelt and so my holes seem to be more consistent through the welt. I eyeball the stitch length - the human eye is really precise.

I've just gained a better appreciation of how hard it is to describe this stuff in written form!

[firefly]

Thomas,

Are you saying that you actually machine stitch one side of the panel and the welt together before you staple the seam for hand stitching?

If so, is that stitch line inside the hand-stitch line. In other words will that machine stitch line get trimmed off when you trim the seam inside the boot?

I hope that I am inderstanding correctly. It sounds like a good approach to keeping things aligned.

Thanks,

Mark

[chuck_deats]

Everyone,
Good comments on side seaming. The key is getting everything aligned and secure before
starting. I use rubber cement to attach the welt to the back panel (Thanks to Lisa Sorrell). The welt extends just a hair (less than 1/32&#34(How did the Icon get here?) beyond the edge of the panel so you are always spacing off the edge of the welt. Let it cure, then the front panel is put on the same way. Small spring clamps are useful for getting everything lined up. After curing, tacks on an anvil are added to assure nothing slips. I like Tom's stapler; wish I had one. The tacks are #3 upholstery tacks which I get from the hardware store. Don't hammer them too hard--They can be tough to remove.

I use a drill press to awl the six stitches per inch. A diamond shaped awl is chucked in the press. A wooden block with a spacer stop is carefully aligned (about 7/32" or whatever welt you are using) and clamped to the table. The depth stop is set and start punching. Punch six holes and stitch, punch six more, etc. Slow but precise. I have trouble holding the awl at the same angle for each stitch (remember the trees). One side would look pretty good, but the other side would be terrible, sometimes over the edge of the welt.

I have used the coarse thread (#150) made for those Speedy Stitcher awls. Not the awl, just the thread and no, you can't break it. I have also used five strands of button and craft thread. All with a wire bristle. DW, Thanks for the tip on making wire bristles. After reading Jake's comments, I now know what I will do with my lifetime supply of #10 linen.

Chuck

[tommick]

Mark,
Yes, I machine sew the welt to the panel before I staple the panels together. The stitches are so close to the edge that they get trimmed off when the sideseam is trimmed. I think that I learned this from Randy Merrell and I think maybe D.W. has it in his book too. I take no credit because everything I do I've learned from someone else. I don't have enough experience yet to venture off inventing my own ways to do things. Seems best to get a good foundation before reinventing the wheel. Even though I've made only a few pair of boots most of them are actually being worn (I'm more surprised than anyone about this).

Oh, I just thought, maybe I have invented something! I rubber cement in a 1 inch wide strip of 5 oz. scrap leather right next to the welt so it ends up inside the boot after stitching the sideseams (remove it before turning the boot). This makes the sideseam area flat and allows the whole thickness of the sideseam to move through my stitcher more uniformly. There's no "edge" formed at the edge of the welt for the stitcher foot to "fall" down which I've experienced before.

[chuck_deats]

Tom,
The rubber cemented scrap leather is an excellent idea. Thanks! I am going to use it on side pulls where I have been having the same problem.

Chuck

[dw]

Tom,

The rubber cemented strip is a good idea, although I have never had that problem. Maybe it's because I use an American Straight Needle to sideseam. The presser foot just seems to naturally track along the line I want it to, unless I'm pushing too hard or not paying attention. However, for the past 15 years or so, I have also had a ball bearing mounted roller guide on my stitching plate and when I butt the edge of the sideseam up against that roller, it's not gonna deviate even as much as a millimeter unless I get crazy. I also make most of my sidewelt and I use a piece of linen cord in the center to create a little more defined bead. This too tends to prevent the presserfoot and the awl from getting "off track" (although surely not much).

For those who are just starting in the Trade, one of the best kept, old timey secrets is the "strip welt." A five-eighths inch (or three-quarter or even one inch) strip of black or neutral (tan) 6 ounce harness or veg/veg retan vamping leather (such as the Horween Beaumont) can be substituted for commercially made or even shop made beaded side welt. Stitch your side seam and never worry about spacing from the edge or from the bead....and when you're done, turn the boot and trim the excess strip with a size 2 Osbourne "Best Edge" edger (or you could use a narrow french edger in a pinch). Voila! You're done!

This makes a very nice side welt that has a certain rough panache, so to speak. Many many of the great elder bootmakers used this method and you'll see lots of strip welting used on boots from the 30's and 40's. Black for black boots and tan for all other colours. Personally, I like it near as much as a beaded welt although it is not as refined and I don't get much call for it anymore.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Homie,

Good to see ya posting again...least we know you're still around and well and ornery as ever. (getting your fingers nipped on a daily basis would make anyone ornery!)

I've been thinking about expanding the capability of the forum to include attaching small video files (got to make some system level mods) but I think there's a small, short, instructional .wmv on one technique or the other in my sights...soon as I get the FW book wrapped up.

Just a thought.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[firefly]

Hey All,

____________________________________________________
Even though I've made only a few pair of boots most of them are actually being worn (I'm more surprised than anyone about this).
____________________________________________________

Thomas, I love this line.

I've bought sides of leather, an antique 31-15 sewing machine, tools I'm not really sure I know how to use...If I ever get a pair of boots that can actually be worn I'm going to pee myself.

One of the things that has been so impressive and inspirational about some of the postings on this thread over the past couple of days has been the fact that some of you guys started out not long ago in the same place that I am in today and you are working it out and making boots.

You guys have really helped me out. I am going to use more than one of your suggestions.

DW, I like the suggestion of using a solid side welt as opposed to a folded bead welt. I thought about this before and I was not sure if you mentioned it or if I got it from a Stohlman book???

Thanks,

Mark

[dw]

Mark,

I believe it's covered in my book...to what extent--mention or detail--I don't remember. [they say the mind is the first to go... ] But it's a good option. If you use the Osbourn edger and are real careful, the strip welt ends up rounded and very smooth, and close and even. Trim it while the side welt is moist--that will make for a cleaner trim and a little burnishing as a plus. The edger needs to be sharp though--fair warning.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[firefly]

DW,

I hope this does not infringe on any of your copy rights but I certainly want to give credit where credit is due. This is from Western Bootmaking: An American Tradition, page 94.

"And,a rather old fashioned but respectable sidewelt may be made from ladies weight outsole welting or a simple strip of lightweight strap leather. I recommend that for your first pair of boots that you use this ‘strip’ welt method. A piece of strap leather is cut three-eighths inch wide and an inch or so longer than what will be our sideseam. Cut four pieces. If your boots are black, naturally, we want to dye the welt, but if they are brown, gray, red, green or any other color, the tradition is to leave the side welt natural."

I knew I had heard this before and it sounded like a great idea then as well. I apologize for alluding some credit to Stohlman.

Well I'm the new guy. I get to mess up once, don't I?

Mark

[jake]

Dee-Dubb,

VIDEO! Oh boy! Now you're talking. That would be great! Hope you can pull it off. By the way, I see where you figured out how to improve the video quality with your new camcorder. Good for you! "Bells & Whistles" can sometimes cause more problems than they're worth. Look forward to seeing some of the video.

As I mentioned, a presentation will be forthcoming, but I also cement a 1" wide piece of leather to the sides of my top panels. I use kangaroo on all of my tops now. It's light and tough, but needs some bulk at the sideseam. I run one side of the piece through my Fortuna to make a good 5/8" skive. Cement the skive TOWARDS the center of the panel. Like I said, I'm pretty heavy-handed with the handsewing. This "beefs" up the sideseam and keeps the stitches from "puckering" the welt. It also creates a nice fold when turning the boot. It helps when rolling and hammering the sideseam too. I use a piece of 3" PVC pipe inside the boot to roll and hammer the seam. Some use a board. Pics will be a-comming.

Yeah, I've been busier than a bee in a clover patch Dee-Dubb, but I've still got some finger-tips left. It's hay season at the moment, and I've been on the tractor for the past four days. Not much time to celebrate Memorial Day, but I did partake in some beer to quench my thirst. Hope everyone had a good one. Take care!

Adios!

[dw]

Jake,

I don't think we can get video "running" on the Forum but the forum is now ready to accept attachments in wmv format if you want to post them. I have one that I need to offload from the camera and then clean up just a little...and then I'll post it--just for fun and to proof the concept. Nothing new just a rehash of tapering dacron for waxed ends--but I was demopnstrating this technique to my current student and I enlisted him to point the camera. So it's fresh today. Just got to get it into the oven and baked. Hopefully, I get that done and posted this weekend.

Memorial Day was rainey here and I have a student...no rest for the wicked, I guess. I wanted to smoke a pork butt or some ribs but like I say it was cold and wet.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[jake]

Dee-Dubb,

I guess I'll have to dust-off the old camcorder. Look forward to the "dueling-wmv's". Sounds like fun. Warm up the oven and get to bakin'!

Glad to hear you're not sittin' around on the front porch too often. I would hate for you to get LAZY! Any student of yours is a lucky Hombre. Money well spent!

[dw]

OK!! Proof of concept.!!..(hope this works)

Here is a small (six minute) video in wmv format that I did on tapering unwaxed dacron thread. It is rough, amateurish, poorly framed in some places, and the break -up in the sound is me, not the equipment. (I have, in later years, developed a sometimes "catch" or stutter in my speech patterns when ad-libbing as my thoughts is get a little ahead of my voice). And more or less spontaneous.

The video covers familiar ground...there is a photo essay on this subject here somewhere...but may offer some insight. I might add that of course this is all staged and slowed down for instructional purposes and anyone concerned about speed should understand that when a certain degree of skill is achieved the time factor is no longer an issue--at least not for me. Of course I like the way the unwaxed dacron can be waxed with *real* handwax and wrapped on a split nylon bristle. I like the end product and I like the process so time is not a factor for me.

I don't know whether a six minute video will be practical for downloading (we'll see) but once it is downloaded it must be opened in Windows Media Player.

Enjoy...and please, please post your feedback on both the practical as well as substantive aspects of this experiment.



Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Didn't work...[sigh] back to the drawing board.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

let me try this again...

tapering_dacron_II-4125.wmv*msmedia.gif*video/x-ms-wmv*9997.5*tapering+dacron+II*tapering+dacron+II%2ewmv

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Hurrah!! Worked this time...I just needed to make the wmv about 90% smaller--from 80mb down to 10mb(didn't know how to do that until I was forced to learn...ain't necessity grand!)

ENJOY!!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC