Lasting

[dw]

Jenny,

Well, that's where the lapjack comes in. If you've got the shoe on a jack and the jack is braced with your feet and knees, you can hold the lasting pincer with one hand, use the other to place the tack and then with that same other hand pick up your tack hammer and "nail the sucker."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Jim,

Mike Ives on a motorcycle?? Heck, I didn't even know he had one. Jeeze! 9-10 years ago...again, I can't remember exactly when it was...I was out there and visited him and Inez. He was looking terrible. He'd had a bout with cancer and although he was in remission he looked like he'd been in a bad fight with a rough woman and come out the worse for it.

Him and his boys used to race cars though. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised about the bike. Mike always claimed him and Mike jr, could lift a 409 cu. in. engine out of the front end of a car and put it back in without a hoist. I saw them working on one and they didn't have a hoist but I never saw them actually do the lifting.

Mike was a big guy, though, in his prime and his boys were built along the same lines.

He and Col. Frank Finch...who taught me to make saddles...probably had more influence on me than any other single human beings in my life...leastwise, my "formative" years. I never tried to be like either one of those old boys but I dern near worshipped the ground they walked on. I never feel good when I fail to give them the credit and honours they deserve.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HC

[jenny_fleishman]

DW, I take it you tack the wiping strip only through the vamp leather and not into the insole, so that it pulls only on the vamp leather(??) Do you grip the strip with your fingers between two of the tacks, and pull it with your fingers away from (perpendicular to) the feather edge? Or when you say "pull hard and down" do you mean down towards the heel (sort of like a drawstring), or down as in pressing toward the insole leather?

Sorry I keep responding to your answers with more questions!

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

No, the tacks go all the way through the insole and into the last. They have to. One of the characteristics of the wiping strip...besides pushing the pipes ahead of itself...is that it applies downward (compression) pressure to any irregularity in the surface of the leather--such as a pipe.

I hold the wiping strip at the opposite end (or somewhere in between) from where I initially tacked. Look at that first photo again...given that I tacked the end of the strip down on the right hand side, how would you go about laying in the strip so that it looks like the photo? Well, that's exactly how the strip is used but downward...towards the floor and/or insole...pressure and lengthwise pressure is applied to the strip as it's being attached. The strip actually "wipes"..."chases"...pushes...the pipes and any excess inward from the edge of the insole.

One more photo...here I'm wiping the heel. Notice that the fingers of my left hand are pulling the strip around and away from the edge of the insole and simultaneously forcing the strip downward into the leather of the countercover. My hand, meanwhile, has a good grip on the strip and is, itself, braced against the back of the boot. The pincer in the right hand is pulling pipes and momentarily I will lay in a tack and hammer it home--using either a tack hammer or the hammer on the selfsame pincer.

It may not be possible to explain this technique but as you can see it is very effective. Suffice it to say that the strip cannot do any of this on it's own, it must be used with in conjunction with pincers, a tack hammer (optional...and a smooth faced hammer can be useful...and probably a lapjack or, even better, an inseaming jack. It's not easy trying to get an in-shop student to understand the process and there I can correct and adjust the students hands and even make sure they are holding their tongue right. Over the net, by words alone and a few almost incomprehensible photos, it may not be possible at all. Something to fool with though.

4049.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

OK...one more photo...her's the end result of heel wiping. Of course I've trimmed the excess but notice how smooth and wrinkle free the leather from the edge of the heelseat to the edge of the wiping strip is. That's at least a full half inch.

There will be some small amount of excess that will have to be skived flat, hidden under the wiping strip, but "small amount" is the operative phrase there.

I hope all this helps.

4051.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on May 06, 2006)

[shoestring]

DW,
This is one heck of a lesson and thanks to Jenny for getting it started.My question,is the feather edge cemented to the insole or left dry at that point? Then the welt is sewed on.


Ed

[jenny_fleishman]

DW, couple more questions:

Do you re-wet the upper before wiping it?

If you were to draw a line around the upper at the feather edge before wiping, would that line still be on the feather edge AFTER wiping, or does it get pulled in a little over the insole?

Do the tacks stay immobile during the wiping or do they tilt in towards the center line of the insole?

When wiping a lined shoe or boot, do you wipe the lining at the same time as the upper? Or do you not wipe the lining? Is the lining trimmed and cemented to the insole before you wipe the outer leather?

Jenny

[dw]

Ed,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you refer to the "feather edge."

As far as the forepart of the boot is concerned, the toe box has been "jacked" with several coats of celluloid cement and then a fresh coat is applied just before the vamp is pulled over. The wiping strip is used immediately. In fact, only one tack, dead center, is used to hold the vamp after it has been pulled. The wiping strip and the drafting of pipes takes place before the cement can dry and it is those tacks--the ones holding the wiping strip that hold the vamp in place.

Because the cement is still wet when the vamp is pulled, when it dries, the vamp is solidly cemented to the toe box and cannot move. At this point, if you need to change anything on or around the toe, you start over from the very beginning building a whole new boot. Beyond that, the vamp is not cemented to the insole from the toe box back. You will notice that there are still tacks just heelward from the toecap...in the ball area on both sides. This is to make sure there is no slippage prior to inseaming.

As for the heel, well, a heavy swath of all purpose cement is applied between the counter and the counter cover just before wiping the heel Again, the wiping is done before the cement can set or dry. Other than that, the counter is not cemented to the insole, so fundamentally every thing is just laying more or less loose over the insole from two inches back on either side of the center of the toe all around the boot to a point two inches back from the toe on the other side.

Inseaming which goes from the waist, around the toe to the opposite waist, holds the forepart in place and of course a welt is added. I whip stitch the shank and heel (no welt) directly to the insole.

So...by the time I am done with my waxed ends that boot could come off the last and not lose anthing in terms of shape or fit. It is a boot.

Hope that helps...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

I don't know about the rest of you but the forum sure seems cranky tonight. Of course it always happens on weekends and we'll probably have to endure through to Monday before any remedy appears.

Jenny,

I do re-wet the forepart but more to act as a barrier to prevent the wet celluloid cement from seeping through.

As for drawing a line, I suppose it does move inward a little. Not much mind you...especially if you've lasted the boot correctly initially.

Maybe I didn't explain but the boot has been lasted and allowed to dry before the toe is rolled back, the toe box laid in and then the forepart relasted. So you really shouldn't have to pull too hard to get the toe to draft in nice and clean. The whole purpose of the wiping is just to clear all those pipes out of your work area and away from the edge.

I usually put off wiping the heel until I am doing the final wiping of the toe...although my master, Mike Ives, wiped the heel right away--as he was first lasting the boot. Just a matter of convenience more than anything else.

The lining never needs wiping. If there are pipes cut/skive them off. Trim the lining to final size or not. But keep it tacked down until you have inseamed the boot--at which point it all gets trimmed to the welt or wherever you deem best.

Notice that I keep talking about a "boot." There are surely other ways to do this or to approach these problems but I make boots and this is how I do it. Hopefully, some of it is applicable in some way to shoes.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on May 06, 2006)

[dw]

Jim,

Meant to say this before...thanks for the words of confidence...means a lot.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

DW, thanks.

Thought for a moment you meant us posters were cranky, but I hope you are referring to slowness with the Web pages coming up!

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

My apologies. You are right...I was referring to the slowness of the forum. I guess it wasn't a very good choice of words...perhaps it was more reflective of my crankiness at the server for being so slow.

Am I wrong or does it feel better this morning?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

DW and Rob (or anyone who wants to comment!)...if you are putting a leather counter and toe box in a lined shoe, do you mold the counter and toebox on the last, let it dry and then take it off, last the upper, lift the outer layer of leather and insert and cement the counter and toebox to the lining, then cement the outer leather to them? (The idea of putting wet leather toe boxes and counters inbetween the layers of leather after lasting the upper just makes me wince!)

If these steps are done in any other order, how would that work if you are "hoisting" or starting with the topline raised at the back of the shoe, bringing it down later?

DW, back to the wiping topic. Am I right in assuming the wiping strip should be veg tan leather, or would chrome tanned work, too? Thanks.

Jenny

[relferink]

Jenny,

When putting the counter and to box in I usually last the shoe, release the upper and finish the lining and glue it down.
Now I fold back the upper and put on the toe box, not pre-formed but it goes on moist with glue. After the toe box dries I scrape it and finish it very smooth, any unevenness here is going to show like a big spot when you finish the shoe, put on my side linings and start with the heel counter, The heel counter goes in moist as well. Now I fold back the upper and finish lasting. The heel counter is moist with glue on both sides. I work it with my hammer to make sure it is totally smooth, any unevenness is worked out with my hammer.

Let the counter dry before finishing the rest of the shoe if you cement unless you inseam, you want to work it as the counter is still moist.

A different way to do this is put the moist counter and toe box in between the upper and lining. Now last the shoe and try to keep the counter and toe box from slipping out, they are very slippery little devils at this point.
Last the shoe and work the leather with your hammer to get it very smooth. If you cement let it dry or the cement won't stick. This technique is much quicker but requires much more practice and the results would in my humble opinion be a little less perfect.

Pre-forming counters is not the way to go, at least not in my not so humble opinion . Works in the shoe industry for high volume production but you do loose something with it. Take the counter v/s heel lining. You typically have a seam in the heel lining, a leather counter formed wet over the lining will adapt to the unevenness and make it virtually undetectable, if you pre-mold the counter and feel the seam you can feel the thickness of the underlaying leather. Just my Don't hesitate to try it both ways and tell me if I'm wrong.

Hope this helps you along

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

Rob, in the first method you describe, is the counter moist only with glue (cement?) or also with water? And is the glue or cement only on the side toward the lining? Will a leather counter and particularly the toe box really form to the last without being soaked through with water? (When I did my fitter shoe counter and toe box it seemed like the water made a big difference.)

What kind of cement or glue do you use on the counter and toe box? At the moment I only have Barge, Ortec...and wood glue!

Jenny

[relferink]

Jenny,

The counter is moist from water, all the way through. You wet the counter, skive and scrape it, wrap it in newspaper and plastic to let is go from dripping wet to moist but not just on the service, it has to be all the way through. I believe someone has described this process in more detail. I'm sure a search will bring it up.
Than you apply the glue. First on the side that goes up against the lining, before you pull the upper over you apply glue to the outside of the counter and toe box. Do not use a synthetic contact cement. Press cement is the cement of choice but some people have worked with some substitutes. Check the Toe boxes section for DW's photo essay.

Rob

[dw]

Jenny,

Veg is a good choice because you don't want the wiping strip to stretch while you're working. Some chromes will not only stretch but get narrower as they do..not good. But bottom line...use what works. I use scraps from heavier work boots--most of which arre veg retans but a few are chromes. A good 5-6 ounce Horween latigo works well.


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DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Lasting/skiving question. When skiving the lasting margin, should you skive the thick area where the vamp overlaps the quarters and is machine stitched. I skived that area on my fitter shoe, and of course it sliced the top side of the machine stitching right off. Is it better not to skive that area?

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

The ideal situation is to not have to skive any of the lasting margin. That's one of the reasons that we...I...use a wiping strip. If I draft with care and deliberation and wipe with the objective of moving surplus pipes away from the edge of the insole, at a certain point I can trim all that off. What's left should be flat enough (by virtue of compression if not drafting) that it needs no skiving.

In the event that you absolutely need to skive your lasting margin...1) don't skive all the way to the featherline and 2) don't worry about it--skive where you must...all that leather should be secured by inseaming or cementing the sole on.

That's my take...

Tight Stitches
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[gordy]

Jenny wrote: "Lasting/skiving question. When skiving the lasting margin, should you skive the thick area where the vamp overlaps the quarters and is machine stitched. "

I'm probably going to show my ignorance here not even having acquired any leather yet but - Shouldn't these joins in uppers be skived so that they aren't thicker? If only to stop there being a ridge you can feel on the inside. Or have I got it wrong?

Gordon

[jenny_fleishman]

DW, when you trim, how wide a lasting margin do you leave? The area flattened by the wiping strip seems pretty narrow.

The overlap of the vamp and quarters seems inevitably thicker (and not due to pipes). Do you just leave it thicker to avoid disrupting the machine stitching? Or trust that the stitching won't unravel even if you skive it off to pretty close to the feather line?

By the way, I sharpened my tools on the Razor Sharp system finally (otherwise I wouldn't be having this skiving discussion yet ). WOW! It works great, even though I'm sure my technique could use fine tuning.

Jenny

[dw]

Well, it depends but putting things in context, I guess I'd have to say that if I were doing cement sole construction (which I hate) I'd leave as much as possible. What does that mean in real life? Usually about three-quarters to one inch. But even half an inch would probably work if it were secured to the insole well. Of course, you need to understand that I am definitely not of the save-every-square-millimeter, cut-every-pattern-for-absolute-minimal-wastage school of thought. I allow extra lasting allowance just to be able to trim it off. Sometimes, on full wellingtons, I'm dealing with two to even three inches of excess before I really get down to lasting (although this is more a function of the necessary "universality" of my patterns than blithe negligence).

If you look more closely at the photo of the wiping strip around the heel, you can see that there is three-eighths to one half inch of clear leather from the featherline to the edge of the wiping strip; and since the wiping strip itself is half an inch wide that equals roughly five-eighths to three-quarters of an inch of usable lasting allowance. Even if the entire half inch hidden under the wiping strip is compressed pipes and wrinkles and even if I have to skive all those pipes to lay them down flat, I still have that clear three-eighths of an inch where any seam would be untouched and un-skived. I can do this around any wide or medium round toe. If I had to do a cement sole construction on a narrow round toe, I'd simply cut strategically placed wedges out of the lasting allowance to make it lay flat on the insole. Strategically implies that no critical seams would be affected. What's more, learn to use a wiping strip correctly and you'll still have that "clear" three-eighths of an inch from the featherline inward. I've done it on narrow pointed toes in teju lizard and never had a crease above the featherline and never had a problem laying the leather flat on the insole.

Having said all that, I don't think you need to worry about the stitching on vamp elements as long as the skiving/cutting is underneath the sole and not on the upper surface of the shoe at all.

Glad you like the Razorsharp...remember the basic principles of sharpening even when using it. If you're not gettting as sharp a blade on the fourth and fifth and sixth time as you did the first time, you're rounding the edge.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, DW.

Another question (yes, another!) about the skiving margin. When using cement down construction, is it enough to skive off the top grain of the margin, or should it also be roughed up with a wire rougher before cementing to the soling material?

Gordon, I did skive the overlapping areas of the leather before cementing them and stitching. Even so, that area is slightly thicker. I was afraid that skiving both pieces to 1/2 their original thickness for the whole area of the overlap would weaken the leather too much, so while they get pretty thin at the very edge (to avoid feeling a ridge), they aren't skived quite that thin all the way across the overlapping area. Perhaps I'm being too cautions about that. If so, someone please correct me!

Jenny

[dw]

Skiving ought to be enough but if you have wiped so that you have any clear leather inward from the featherline, you wouldn't want to skive that if you don't have to. So just take some 60 or even 100 grit sand paper and break the grain surface....I don't use those wire roughers--they'll tear up leather faster than you can gulp.

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[jenny_fleishman]

re topline...how do you keep it from stretching? In a lined shoe? In an unlined shoe? On the Wilson Gracey tape the shoemaker had a narrow strip of woven material he reinforced it with (in a lined shoe), but my local shoe finder had no idea what I was trying to describe. Is there some other way to do it?

Tried on my fitter shoe yesterday (minus a heel). Topline too stretchy. Otherwise, fits almost respectable, looks almost respectable, except that it looks like a clown shoe! Next step, revise my feet ...I mean, revise my lasts...

Jenny Fleishman