Tools of the Trade

[dagon]

Howdy all!

I was wondering what equipment y'all think a newby shoemaker might be able to use. I've got a 29k-70, another singer light industrial, some hand tools, needles, and some tools to make my own lasts. I've got a couple of books (Shoes for Men, Stepping through time, a book on last-making, Doug Strong's books on peroid medieval-ish shoes and boots, and a couple of others). I've made some medieval turnshoes by hand, and actually got about a dozen folks into it enough that they've made more shoes than I.

Now, to the meat of my question and why. A fellow I know has a Landis K and an L, a Line finisher, one of those machines that nails on a heel with wire (what are they called???), and at least 2 other heavy stitching machines, and boxes of heels, soles, thread, and stuff.

Does it sound like these things would be worth the $4500 he's asking, and would it make any sense for a newby (Me) that does NOT plan to open a real shop to get these to make shoes and boots for himself, family, and friends?

Do y'all professionals use things like I've mentioned (I know some do, but does everyone?)

Thanks! (and apologies for being long winded...)

-Mitch

[jeffb]

Hi i tried this before so if there are two I apologize. i recently emptied an old shoe shop i have a Landis 12 L 2 autosolers different looking bottoms one is s shaped a ten foot champion roll or polishing unit with brushes etc and it had some kind of machine on the top of the left end a lemack glue press with tons of inserts some for high heels etc. some kind of heel press looks like an arbor press a boot jack or stand with 4 inserts a bunch of stretchers etc. i did this for a friend and now my garage is full so i need to sell it for him can anyone steer me to a place so i can identify this stuff get a ballpark on what to ask for it and how to describe it my phone is 906 265 4555 i am there Mon. through Thur 9 to 4 cent time my email is jbonno@ironriver.tv i am in the upper peninsula of mi 15 miles north of WI
thanks
jeff

[dw]

Jeff,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy...if you haven't been welcomed before.

Sometimes this kind of post will get results, sometimes it won't. Photos help and if you post it over in "The Boughton Faire Memorial Bazaar" you may get better resluts too. But keep in mind that many people posting here may already have their shops set up...many won't but most of the "old-timers" surely will.

I would suggest that if you don't gets some bites here that you post these items on EBay.

Good luck, in any case...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tomo]

Hey DW
Thanks for the consideration. I have a hammer identical too that one, in fact in the 70's and subsequently, those London pattern hammers were the only ones you could readily buy.

The other hammer I have is very old, infact I got just the head - well, dad did, and I turned a new handle from Yew (Cemetry Tree), then sanded the handle flats on later. The head has a '3' on it and George Barnsley with an 'A' and their shoe on it. The London Pattern is a number 1. Again with Geo Barnsley & Son, Sheffield, England

I've polished both hammers on a buff so the faces are very smooth and shiney .

3838.jpg

More power to y'awl.

T.

[jenny_fleishman]

Calipers...I'm thinking calipers would be a useful tool, particularly for making my own lasts, such as for measuring toe box height and comparing the right last to the left last, etc. I'm looking at the following Web site

http://www.gladstonetools.com/calipers-and-dividers.html

and thinking about either the double-ended caliper or perhaps one of the flat leg calipers that look like two upside-down question marks

http://www.gladstonetools.com/calipers-and-dividers-flat-leg-calipers-and-divide rs.html

Any comments, suggestions? Are there calipers especially designed for shoemakers? Seems like I saw a caliper in one of my leather catalogs for about $200, which seemed excessive!

Jenny

[jenny_fleishman]

Anyone know where one can buy a tape measure for measuring feet and lasts (metric)? All I've been able to find is a metric sewing tape measure, which is wider than ideal. The local shoe finder in Chicago, I.Sachs, doesn't have such a thing.

Also, if anyone (Erick?) knows of other shoe finders in the Chicago area...hard to believe there's only one! Thanks.

Jenny

[erickgeer]

Jenny,

Unfortunately, I.Sachs is the only one here- there used to be a Korean outfit way out in the Albany Park area, but has been gone for some years. Needless to say, I'm sometimes a fixture over there, since my students are pretty dependant on them.

I've been keeping an eye out for a flexible metal tape, but the only one I've ever held in my hands was one a friend bought in Italy.

You might want to check out Ward & Kennedy in WI, they have a number of materials and tools for the trade: (800) 521-8584.

Let me know if your search is successful.

Erick

[relferink]

Jenny,

Euro International sells a Shoemaker's Measuring Tape, it's metric on one side and has french and English sizing on the other side. 800-378-2480.
Euro shoemaker's tape

They are sometimes kind of expensive but you can call them for a quote.

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

re measuring tape, adhesives...talked to Euro International today. They charge $2.80 for the measuring tape and $4.10 for a tailor's tape, which the person I spoke to thought highly of. I ordered one of each. Neither is metal. Waiting for a call back from Ward & Kennedy.

She also asked me what kind of adhesive I was using in shoemaking, and said that Barge doesn't work well with some of the newer synthetic soling, etc., materials. She recommended an adhesive called Colle De Cologne for that, and Ortec (which she said is toulene free) for making orthotics. Both are sold by the gallon and are rather pricey. Comments?

Jenny

[walrus]

Jenny

You can get the real thing from
RUBY LEATHER CO.
in Milwaukee WI
The phone number is 1.800.866.7829
Good Luck
Larry
Walrus Shoe & Leather co .
www.walrusshoe.com

[tomo]

Hi Jenny,
I use the Ortec, as anything with Toulene in it burns my hands like you wouldn't believe - I've built up a reaction to it over the years, but the Ortec is FANTASTIC. It also works well on the work I do as a saddler and bootmaker(pending)

More power to y'awl.
T.

[jenny_fleishman]

Tom,

I'm planning to do cement down construction. Is the Ortec strong enough to hold a shoe together by itself? Where do you buy your Ortec?

Jenny

[erickgeer]

Tom,

Is the Ortec non-solvent based period, or just Toluene-free?

Jenny,

I did a Google search for "Renia Cement", and Atlas Ortho came up first- both the Colle De Cologne and the Ortec are Renia products. It's gotten me curious about the others listed.

I think you're kind of lucky to be in a position to be able to start fresh, and be able to try alternatives. I haven't been doing this for all that long, and I've become kind-of a slave to the All Purpose cement. It would be nice to use alternatives. I haven't been able to let myself trust them yet. Maybe this conversation will get me going.

At the HCC meeting ths past October, John Roberts recomended a non-solvent contact cement from Dev-Con. I have not been able to locate it yet. A local distributor of Dev-Con products seems to have given up our game of phone-tag.

I have to get back to work. I'm hoping this thread stays open for a while.

Erick

[tomo]

Hi Jenny,

I live in New Zealand, the company I deal with is called Footcom - (as in footwear componentry) and they don't have a web or email address.
If you do a search for Renia Ortec, you'll see a Californian company called Atlas. They sell a big range of footwear stuff, but their terms of trade might be a bit tough and I don't know anything about them, others on the CC could probably help here.

As far as usability goes, I use the Ortec wherever I'd use a conventional contact adhesive and find it excellent. If you want extra bite, you can apply a coat, let it dry then apply another coat and bond the two surfaces in the usual way.
I suspect Chris Williamson could add more here... If he isn't listening, you might need to email him directly (you could do a CC search for his name and email address)

Ortec is more expensive, but not prohibitively so.

More power to y'awl
T.

[tomo]

Sorry Erick and Jenny,
we were posting at the same time. I'm sure the Ortec is Acetone based (although I stand to be corrected here) but the other Renia adhesives aren't. When I get the Renia, Royden says to me 'Ah you want the Ortec... for your hands?'

I just went into the workshop and got the can, check out www.renia.com the can says it contains Colophonium - which I thought was another name for rosin.(???)
I just use it in the glueboy with the little brush that comes with that, and it's fine. I also have a can of their thinners (solvent) as well, but I don't use this much.

More power to y'awl.
T.

(Message edited by Tomo on February 01, 2006)

[tomo]

Jenny, Erick,
As an after thought for US suppliers, check out the Proleptic New Big Book, www.newbigbook.com or look online at Proleptic www.proleptic.net and search 'Adhesives' there are about a dozen suppliers listed.

More power to y'awl.

T.

[relferink]

Jenny,

The Colle De Cologne (by Renia) is overkill unless you work with oil resistant soling. I would not use it since it’s more aggressive and probably less healthy. I’m not familiar with Ortec but it sounds like something I should try. I’ve recently switched from Barge to Du-all 88 and I like it so far. Seems to give a little better hold on PU foams that I get a lot for shoe modifications.
I like to get my cements from local venders. If it gets shipped cross country this time of year there is a chance that it will freeze in the truck and even though the vendor will tell you it does not make a difference I don’t believe them. Maybe that’s just my own stubbornness but that’s a different story all together….

Tom,
I’m just looking at the Ortec, looks like it’s one and a half times the price of the Colle de Cologne at Frankford Leather. Is that because it’s a new item for them or is it roughly the same in N. Zealand?

For anyone interested, I found the technical data sheet at the Renia site

Rob

[tomo]

Rob,

the Renia Ortec costs me NZ $29.95 for a 640g can, this is about US $44.00.

I think we can discuss price here because we aren't or can't be percieved as 'fixing the price' we don't have a vested interest in the goods per sec. Besides we're in different countries...

Admin. go right ahead and pull the plug on this if I'm wrong (I hope not) and apologies if I am.

More power to y'awl.
T

[relferink]

Tom,

As long as DW is getting a well deserved tan in some exotic place he can't give us much guidance on what's appropriate. I certainly do not want to risk the tax free status of the HCC.
Your justification sounds reasonable to me so here it goes.
Ortec 4 kg is listed for US 63.75
the Colle De Cologne 1 gallon is 36.50.
I realize the 4 kg is a little more than 1 gallon.
Compare that to $21 for a gallon of barge or Du-all.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't one US$ buy roughly 1.5 NZ$. that would make the price there 20 US for 650g.

Rob

[tomo]

Hi Rob,

yeah, it's always a problem living in a small country (bit over 100,000 sq miles & pop approx 4.5 million) but my main concern is my health and I don't care about the price, in fact I source a lot of stuff out of the US, but like you or Al (?) was saying about freezing, I get the glue locally.

More power to y'awl.

T.

[jenny_fleishman]

Surprise, surprise! I opened my box from Euro International, from whom I ordered the tape measures. It was a surprisingly heavy box, but then again, they had said they'd mail me a catalog or two. It seemed odd that everything was wrapped in something silver, until voila!, I discovered it was a gallon of Ortec. Now I have to decide whether to keep it and have them charge me for it, or return it. It was shipped from Florida, so I suppose I'd be taking a chance with whether the weather during shipping affected it. I also don't remember what they said the price was...

Larry, I did call Ruby Leather about the shoemakers measuring tape, but they said they are a wholesaler and wouldn't sell to an individual.

Jenny

[tomo]

Jenny, Renia (www.renia.com) say the product has a shelf life of a minimum of 2 years at 20oC which is 68oF. A gallon is a lot to use though, but it is good, I'd recommend it.

More power to y'awl.
T.

[dw]

One of the first questions I can remember asking when I was just starting out, was "why is a shoemaker's hammer shaped that way?" Of course, not all shoemaking hammers are shaped the same way but what in the world could be done with that extremely "curved" peen (or pane)?

The "common" or "shoemaker's" hammer that are so ubiquitous on Ebay (often, and preferably, made by Hammond) generally have a smooth face and a down curved pane. That pane is the real puzzle for most novices. Of course we are familiar with a carpenters claw hammer which also has a curved pane. But it is separated into two "claws" so that nails may be pulled from wood. The same cannot be said for the common pattern hammer. Indeed, the edge of the pane is often highly polished (as is the face)and pulling nails is not an option if you want to preserve that polish.

One of the reasons we do not know quite what to make of the hammer is that we have forgotten or abandoned many of the processes that were important at the time these hammers were evolving. The pane of the common pattern shoe hammer was used to compress the leather fibers on the edges of the sole and the layers of the heel. The leather was dampened and then struck with the edge of the pane in a series of overlapping blows. While acknowledging that I don't have the proper training to do this (it's possible that no one under the age of 80 does), I have actually tried this and frankly I can't say that it has much effect especially on our modern, already-compressed sole leather.

But not only common shoemakers hammers, but French hammers and German pattern hammersas well, all have more to them than just driving a tack or smashing a spider. Each of these, if the edge of the pane is rounded and polished, can be used to chase wrinkles on a crimping board...this is especially apropos when doing long work. And the pane can be used to drive pipes inward when lasting around the heel and toe of a boot...almost in defiance of the old saw that "you can't last with a hammer."

The edge of a London pattern hammer is ideal for driving the lining into the channel around the toe.

French hammers are almost like stylized "flounders" or "closers hammers" but mounted on a handle, and if the face and pane are polished, the hammer head can be held in such a way as to allow the French hammer to function exactly like a flounder during closing and folding operations.

And, a good quality, close grain handle on a hammer is about as essential...in my operations...as the hammer head itself. A good smooth handle can function as a burnishing stick in bottoming operations and even as a wrinkle chaser on the long boards.

There's an old, old saying that you can make a pair of shoes with a fork, a knife, and a hammer. Sometimes when I find myself picking up the hammer and using it in ways not immediately obvious, I almost believe it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Cool tool...

http://www.gladstonetools.com/4indoenca.htm

...double-ended caliper. I purchased it to measure the thickness of molded footbeds I plan to make, particularly measuring the thickness of the heel area, since removing a regular caliper from it would require opening the caliper wider, losing the measurement.

[jenny_fleishman]

Good tool find, I think. For those who are starting out and need a grinding wheel...I came across some sleeveless sanding drums that you can put your own sandpaper on. They come in diameters of 3/4" to 3" and widths from 2 1/4'" to 6". They can be used on a motor arbor, portable drill (I think it may require a 1/2" chuck), etc. Here's the link:

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=258

If anyone knows of anything similar, please post!

Jenny