Insole leather

[dw]

Al,

One other point in passing, as it has come up again...Follow me here, if you will...*if* the "heavy" insoles I put into your boots (and they weren't Baker's) were not noticeably stiff; *if* they did not crack "before their time"; and *if* they have given you a reasonable footbed (not expecting the same kind of footbed you would get with your approach), I fail to see the downside to using a thicker insole. I'm no "princess and the pea" but I don't want to feel every pebble, BB, and deer pellet underfoot. Frankly--and here I'm sure I will display the extent of my ignorance and wrong-headedness--I'd use a heavier (maybe not as heavy as a boot) insole even if I were making dress shoes. Again, I fail to see the problem...all things being equal.

I was thinking about this the other day...how does the welt fit into the boot "schematically" so to speak. If the insole is thin--roughly 5-6 iron--and no real feather is cut into the edge (maybe the edge is just beveled a bit) then the welt becomes an extension of the insole. Follow me? That's good...heck, it's even "elegant." But functionally, the inseam is vulnerable. Get too close to the vamp especially with a curved needle machine, and the inseam gets chewed up.

With a thicker insole, it's much like your scheme to split the insole in half and then glue it back together. The feather is cut to produce a "rabbett" into which the welt, theoretically, fits...again as an extension of the insole. The holdfast is roughly 5 iron, and the lip of the feather is roughly 5 iron, and the welt is roughly 5 iron...and it all works together quite marvelously. And, as a bonus, the inseam is protected by the feather and at the same time there is no "curling" of the feather to speak of. Love those bonuses! In my opinion, this approach...all things being equal (except the thickness of the insole, of course ) is both conceptually *and* functionally just as elegant as the other approach. It's worked for me, at any rate.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jake]

D.W./Al,

This topic has always interest me because I'm one of those "nasty" foot-sweaters who play havoc on insoles.

Al, you've mentioned applying layers of scrap leather, or cork, on the bottom side of the insole to create a foot-bed. How about the top side by way of a moldable foot-bed.

3052.jpg

Here's a tri-layer product which has poron (blue) on the bottom and pink plastazote (pink) on the top. You create what I've been told is called a "drop insole" while making the boot. When it's finished, you drop these puppies in.

Two advantages I see with this system:

1---Adjustable fit....leather insoles will compress with time while creating the foot-bed, thus becoming looser. With this system, you usually don't have this problem.

2---This stuff is made in different thickness. At delivery of the boots, if they're a little loose, all you would do is drop in a thicker insole. Too tight, just the opposite.

3---And I guess there's a third advantage, no burnt out leather insoles, thus longer life of the boot.

Any thoughts? Comments?

I have made Pam one pair like this....she swears by them! Most comfortable boot she has ever worn. I just haven't had the time to make myself a pair.

[das]

DW,

Whether the flesh might take a deeper imprint in wear than the grain is anybody's guess. Like I'd said, the only reasons I've ever heard for reversing the insole was to reduce slippage [friction] of the foot on the insole surface, and to reduce the problems of the grain cracking. Also, I now seem to recall strengthening the inseam was another alleged advantage--if you're making your inseam on the grain-side, you're working in the densest, tightest fibers, so it might not be so apt to cut through or tear out. I'd still think you'd be faced with buffing the smooth grain off first, to avoid horrible squeaking later. I've never made or worn reversed insoles, so I have no personal opinions except, having worn unlined uppers with the flesh inside, they will eat through socks faster than lined, or grain-in uppers, but the reduced slipperiness/friction is an advantage in hiking and utilitarian boots. I imagine a reversed insole might tend to eat socks??????? I dunno. Why don't ya try one and tell us

"Document" which details? The British National Health specifying strictly pit-tanned oak bark insoling? It's in one or more of the more recent [1950s-60s] textbooks, as you have, Thorntom's I think, but in all events that's what's keeping Baker's afloat business-wise. Maybe one of our UK or European colleagues could chime in here.

I find through personal use and customer feed-back: 1) it stays "drier" feeling underfoot than *any* other veg-tanned leather, never clammy or damp [dissipates sweat faster, or after having gotten wet, dries quicker]; 2) all but eliminates foot odor in the shoe or boot; 3) darkens but doesn't chemically "burn" or turn black and crack [as fast if at all]; 4) is lighter weight per thickness than *any* other veg-tanned insoling, which, since it's sold by weight, makes it not as scary as one might imagine; 5) and *if* you ever use iron nails in the heel-seat, it won't "gall" [turn black and crumble away around the nail] as badly or as fast as regular veg-tanned insoling--BTW I only use brass nails when I don't peg or sew the seat.

Some of this wonderfulness is no doubt owing to the 12 to 18 months of slow pit-tannage with ground oak bark tan liquor, instead of extracts, which produces a naturally lighter weight, open and airy material, and the fact that no sugars or other adulterants are loaded in there to attract ambient moisture from the air to increase the weight [and price!]. It's just a superior tannage on all fronts.

As to economy: I'm thinking...we buy maybe 10-15 Baker's shoulders at a time [no quantity discounts at that level]. Landed in VA, including air freight, etc., they are inventoried by CW for between $90 and $120 per shoulder, depending on the prevailing exchange rate. With careful book-matching--cutting one from the right, and one from the left side of the shoulder--I average maybe 10 pairs per shoulder, which works out to $9.00 to $12.00 per pair--cheaper than a pair of Rendenbach pre-cut outsoles [these were $13-$14 last time I bought any]. The spine down the middle gives you a nice strip for shanks, or other fiddly bits too.

[das]

DW,

==========
"One other point in passing, as it has come up again...Follow me here, if you will...*if* the "heavy" insoles I put into your boots (and they weren't Baker's) were not noticeably stiff; *if* they did not crack "before their time"; and *if* they have given you a reasonable footbed (not expecting the same kind of footbed you would get with your approach), I fail to see the downside to using a thicker insole."
==========

The insole leather in the boots you made me is fine, I just noted that the footbed imprint won't sink as deep as with my 6 iron Baker's was all. Hardly a criticism. As to feeling every pebble, my thinking is, the outsole should be doing the work there--more so than the insole. It's not the insole's "job" IMO to protect from the environment per se, but the outsole's.

==========
"no real feather is cut into the edge (maybe the edge is just beveled a bit) then the welt becomes an extension of the insole."
==========

A sloping feather is a "real" feather, and IMO makes a stronger inseam than the angled stair-step cuts many [you?] use. It removes less material, and doesn't result in such a weak edge that can curl up inside the boot, or allow the upper to ply up short. I've tried both--even bought that expensive feather plough from Goetz, and a Berg one from Janne to try--but have come back to my old sloping feathers.

The distance in from the the last's featheline the inseam is, is a feature of how far in you cut whatever feather, if you're worried about cutting the sewing-stitches with the stitching-stitches with the curved needle. We have a similar problem with the square awl doing it by-hand, so positioning the inseam is the adjustment no matter what shaped feather you make on your insole. BTW, if you moved the holdfast further under the last to bring the inseam in more, I'd think you'd be better off with a wider sloping feather, as it would be less apt to flap-up, or curl up inside the boot in wear.

Hey buddy, it's whatever is working for you. I'm not trying to sell you on changes. Just different background and schools of thought here--no agendas

[jake]

Al,

Your "sloping feather" is what Mike DeWitt teaches at Oklahoma State University-Okmulgee. He's the instructor of the Shoe, Boot, & Saddle department.

I will have to give it a try. Your explanations seem sound.

[dw]

Al,

It seems to me that a piece of "hard" leather, which is subject to some drying (as a consequence getting even harder) and cut at an angle is going to function like the edge of a knife. The more you angle the inseam under the insole, the sharper the edge gets. And just like metal, the more likely the edge can curl. We make scrapers for wood just so. That concept/image in my mind is so powerful that I lose all interest in the "true feather" the instant I visualize it.


====================
>I'm not trying to sell you on changes. Just different background and schools of thought
> here--no agendas
====================

Same here, Al. I seldom get to explore these subjects in depth with anyone else. And I appreciate the chance.

The Internet, as great as it is, doesn't convey tone of voice or nuance very well. The bottom line is that you never know when someone will read you wrong, or take offence at the very fact that you aren't part of the "me-too-chorus."

Part of what is involved in every discussion in the world since time began is a comparison of different ways of doing things.

I hope that I never reach the point...due to age or time in the saddle...when I can't hear and dispassionately consider the strengths and weaknesses of a technique or "school of thought" quite apart from the personality that proposed it. And doubly so going in the other direction.

I'm sure for every "yes, but" that I have regarding the way you do it, you have two for the way I do it. So what? It's interesting to hear and ponder those differences. Don't you think? I mean it's not like I'm beating your dog, for crying out loud! From past experience I know that you and I would have these same conversations nearly word for word if we were sitting in your shop drinking malt, corresponding by private email, or nattering away on the phone. This is the way the Forum is **supposed** to work!!

And thanks for sharing your experiences with regard to Bakers. I was sold before but that helps. I hope my friend in Portland read your post. [Bill, you there?]

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

All,

CC Poll:

[Read Al's post of 9 May 2004 04:24 am]

If there were a reliable source in the US for Baker insole shoulders, how many people would be interested in purchasing on a regular basis?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

Jake,

Regarding synthetic insoles I have had little experience. I've tried wearing jump-boots and similar with Poron [removable, as well as laminated to Texon board] insoles, and couldn't stand 'em. Too squishy, hot, and they get clammy from sweat really fast.

Part of this stems from what the feet are used to--mine, a lifetime of leather insoles, and welted soles, mostly leather as well. We now have a generation, or maybe two, that have grown up wearing sneakers, track shoes, etc., and they're accustomed to all that squishiness. Pam?

Feet have "proprioceptors", which, if overly insulated from the environment via cushioning, blocks out the needed information exchanged with the brain as to gait. Ever wonder why folks in sneakers seem to just shuffle along, without really breaking into a strident gait? Their feet are overly insulated from the information they need to go more aggresively. This is an interesting article that touches a bit on this issue:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2116/boots.htm

Personally I don't like the idea of removable insoles. They slip and slide, and reduce positive contact with the boot's bottom IMO. As far as adjusting a bad fit, trying different thickness socks is as far as I'd go.

I'd be interested in hearing what our pedorthist and orthopedic members have to say about Poron and this approach. Me, I gotta have my bark-tanned insoles. And, if I had a customer who wanted an all-leather shoe that felt like a sneaker, I'd try to talk them out of the all-leather shoes, because they'll never "feel right" if that's what they're not used to wearing.

"Extra-depth" shoes and lasts are designed this way--extra deep and very "dead", anticipating the insterted footbed contraption to reduce the inside volume to suit. "Mass Customization" is another idea that keeps kicking around in the shoe industry, but from what exposure I've had to the concept, they'd be better off making lasts that fit better to begin with. Maybe Bill Tippit has some insights here?

[jake]

Al,

Thank You for your insight and comments. I appreciate the reference too.

Pam? Yeap....grew up in "padded" insoles of some sort. As for me, I can't remember ever NOT having leather next to my foot. "Cowboy" boots have always been my footwear, except during my service-contected duties.

The only disadvantage I could think of with the removal insoles, was the lack of "wicking" of perspiration.

they'd be better off making lasts that fit better to begin with

Yes I agree, but there's been times in my boot career that I had some extra "fudge". But I agree with ya!

[das]

DW,

Insole leather shouldn't ever be "hard". Take a look at Rees on his explanation of the sloping feather, versus not cutting one at all [i.e. under-cutting the insole shy of the last's feather-line]. He does a good job of describing the mechanics, and how it acts as a spring reinforcing, not as a "knife" on the uppers.

With the "stair step" feathers--I just invented that term, it's nothing traditional--formed by a vertical cut, then a horizontal cut, removing a big "L" of material all around: the wider the feather itself before the holdfast rises up at the right angle, the weaker the thing I think. By cutting an "L" out of the insole's edge, the lower part of the "L" representing the feather itself, you'll have a weak flap more or less wide that's a uniform thickness of, what, 1/8" ?

With the sloping feather, or beveled feather, it's only really thin enough to curl nearest the edge, thickening up as it moves away toward the holdfast, and so less--not more--prone to curling up.

And, if you don't have a "feather-plough", and try to cut those "stair-step" feathers with a knife, it's too easy to cut to deep and ruin the insole--I know, I have

You betcha we'd be having the same talk in person--just the Scotch would make it flow better and we'd be able to draw sketches or shoe examples.

[erickgeer]

I have a question for the Orthopedists in regards to insole and cushioning.

Is there a way to re-condition a foot to wearing straight leather for the insole? My feet have gotten to needing some cushioning over the years - fifteen years ago, I was wearing off-the-shelf engineer boots with no cushioning, now I can barely wear a shoe for more than an hour without a cushioned insole. In addition to that, I am one of those people with "toxic" foot sweat - which has just gotten worse and worse.

I suspect from Al's comments that I could fix the odor and sweat foot problem with a good leather footbed, but how about the cushioning issue? Could it be as simple as using an appropriate leather for the footbed?

Thanks,

Erick

[dw]

Al,

First, we can't work off the assumption that the insole has to be "right" for the foot and then postulate problems that would only develop if the insole were too wide for the foot. The stair step feather, especially done with a thicker insole, leaves a blunt "lip" that is supported by the welt underneath and held down by the foot from above. It is hard to envision any tendency for it to turn up when the "lip" itself is essentially the same weight and form factor as the entire insole that is the proposed alternative...especially if the foot is holding it down.

On the other hand, because the grain is so much tighter than the flesh, as the insole dries out, I think the insole leather tends to curl in on itself. I've never looked closely at this but I have a general sense that *my* experiences, at least, bear this out. Compounding this is the fact that even with an insole that is the correct width the vamp will still have a tendency to draw the edge of the insole up....effectively turning the sharp edge of the insole into the foot.

My experience, even with Baker (and domestic is much worse, admittedly) can be modeled thusly: rough cut an insole from a shoulder. Use your lip knife. Wet the insoles and forme them to the bottom of your last. Let the insoles dry for a day or two. Now trim the insoles to the feather of the last with the same lip knife. I've found that in the majority of cases the edge of the insole is harder, judging by the resistance to the knife, than it was before it was molded to the bottom of the last. I do believe that once we get past the immediate edge --cutting away the excess--that the leather is again not so hard. But the same thing happens to one degree or another within the shoe or boot...but we have added heat and salt, etc. to the environment. The insole gets wet. It dries out. It gets wet again. It dries out, The edge of the insole--where the angled feather has been cut--becomes harder, in almost the same way and for the same reasons as occur when you fire harden the sharpened point of a stick. Perhaps insole leather "should never be hard" but you and I both know that it does get hard. I think at some point, especially if like me, a maker doesn't have ready access to Baker's, or perhaps at some unhappy time when Baker's is no longer in business, a maker has to factor just such considerations into the equation.

Beyond that I would point out that we arrive at where we are because we start from different places. I have seldom stitched a sole on by hand...and I don't make a general practice of it. I use the curved needle machine to, I believe, good enough effect that hand stitching becomes impractical--the cost (time)-benefit ratio makes no sense. But I know how easy it is to think you are far enough away with your outsole stitching to avoid encroaching on the inseam and 18 months later open the boot to replace the sole and find out how wrong you were. I believe the inseam must be tucked under the edge of the outsole by at least a generous eighth of an inch...even after you figure in the vamp and vamp lining. I would have to see it done as you do it to believe that you could do an angled feather, protect the inseam, and not arrive at a very thinly tapered (sharp) edge, especially on a light weight insole.

Having said that, I'm sure that you can do it. But there are so many factors involved....style of footwear, intended usage, thickness of the insole, techniques we haven't talked about, spacing of outsole stitching relative to the inseam (since you're doing it by hand), etc., etc., that I don't know that a melding of these two approaches is possible without going back to the very beginning and learning it all over again--encountering the problems and solving them one by one as you go along.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

Erick,

As to cushioning, my thought is put it below the insole. Maybe try Poron for bottom-filling? Maybe a cushy neoprene crepe sole or bottom unit? This way the foot is still in direct contact with good old leather, but the shock from the ground is padded on the "outside".

[das]

DW,

The "round" edges of the foot ain't going to hold down the very edge of the insole like the "sharp" feather-line of a last? Huh?

I just reached down into my shoes--worn everyday at work, with little or no coddling--and with my fingernail lifted the edge of thwe Baker's insole. It is as fresh and mellow as the day they were made...6 years ago. I'll check my "old" ones [25-30 years] tonight when I get home and LYK, but I doubt if the insoles have changed character much. None have curled anyhoo.

Tell ya what, I'm making some mock-ups today in the shop, just the forepart. I'll do one for you and send it to you. How's that?

[jake]

Dee-Dubb/Everyone,

This got by me somehow:

CC Poll:

[Read Al's post of 9 May 2004 04:24 am]

If there were a reliable source in the US for Baker insole shoulders, how many people would be interested in purchasing on a regular basis?

I love Baker's leather! I've been using it for about 3 years now. Count me in!

I didn't see any other responses on this. No one else interested? Let us hear from you!

[lancepryor]

I would be interested.

[erickgeer]

I would also be interested in the Bakers Insole.

I am going to see if Ruby Leather will have any of the insole leather still unclaimed.

I have been searching the forum for an opinion. It seems to be generaly agreed that the Bakers is the better insole leather, but what is the opinion on the Rendenbach? I am learning to inseam on the Westan Insole Strips, which so far seem to be pretty inconsistant on a single piece.

Erick

[dw]

All,

It's not for me to commit others nor take credit where credit is due somewhere else, but it looks to me like the deal to bring Baker insole shoulders into the US on a regular basis may, in fact, be a "go."

It would help the person involved, if thoe who would be interested, would weigh in on this poll. That way he'll know how many above his own needs to bring in.

There are two weights being talked about --shoe weight, @ 6 iron, and boot weight, @ 9 iron plus.

If you're interested make sure you let us know because later on there may not be enough to go around.

Erick,

Personally, it's my opinion that while the Rendenbach insole is a step up from domestic, it is still not quite as "mellow" as the Baker.

And OBTW, if you're using Westan insole bellies, try tallowing your insoles on the grain side only (so that it completely soaks in) for a better footbed.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[mekhaus]

Al (l):

First, I'm only partially caught up on reading
the postings from the past few days. Of which
there are many (I was away). On the topic of
interest in Baker insoles, here are a couple of
questions.

1- Am I correct in assuming these would be in
the form of shoulders and that CW (Colonial
Williamsburg?) would be bringing them in to U.S.?

2- Would a minimum order per insole weight be a shoulder?

I am sure that I do not need the quantities that
others need, but would be interested in jumping in
on the opportunity to get some high quality insoles at the boot (9 iron plus) weight.

Michael

[cmw]

Erick

If you are writing to me I’ll do my best do help.

Janne could help you allot more than I can.

Be aware that all I do is make orthopedic shoes according to a work order. I have my journeyman's grade as a cobbler and am working on the orth. part now.

My first question is this; why did you start using a cushioned innersole/shoe? If it was not because of medical reasons, it might just be a question of training your foot again. What is your age and do you have allot of pain in your knees, hips or back. Things happen with time maybe you need to see someone about it. I have a varus foot that was not that pronounce when I was younger. I’m buckin 39 yrs. Pregnant women develop plat feet or hammer toes because the body creates hormones that help the hip joints loosen up, which in turn also hits the feet and other parts of the body.

If a doc. or an Orth. in your area says your Ok then it might be a question of getting used to it( hard soles) again.

We use a neoprene like soft called therofix to adjust lasts. it is put on and ground down to the needed effect. After this the insole. In short it is what you call the orthotics. this material is soft enough to give some cushion but still firm. allot of the soft/neoprene materials have grades of hardness. The thermofix is a strong material against acid feet as I understand. just remember to glue some veg tanned on top.

It would just be a question of using the hardness that is needed and possible do as has been mention by the others. An orth. master that has helped me get ready to make some boot for myself said the same thing about the leather insole. If you build a shoe/boot with a 5 mm insole there is room in the insole to adjust to a minor problem as long as the last is made correctly.

I believe Robert looks in on the group from time to time, he could also help you much more than I can.

That was a long way to pass the buck but i hope it helps.

CW

[paul]

Count me in for a Bakers Insole Shoulder as well.
PK

[lancepryor]

I would be interested in the 6 iron variety.

[erickgeer]

DW,

I am already tallowing my insoles the way you explained it, it's kind of a nice process. My complaint about the Westan Insole leather is there seem to be a lot of deep blemishes, and uneaven flesh. I need to get a splitter so I can get consistant thickness.
If you are recomending the tallow for Westan, do you think it's uneccesary for the better quality insole?

BTW, I would be interested in the Shoe weight Bakers. I think. If I can manage it, I would probably want a piece of both weights.

Chris,
Thank you for your input.
I think I have just gotten the effects of ill fitting shoes. I used to live in combat boots, and those don't come in narrow widths. I started using cushions mostly as filler. I am only 29, I think there is still hope for my feet yet.
Is it agreed all around that Veg tan footbed is the most stink resistant?
I'll start with making a shoe that fits, with a leather insole.

Erick

[dw]

Erick,

I use 9" insole bellies from Westfield tanning. I order TR10-11 iron. If I feel like it and if the flesh is very crappy I will split it. I prefer the Bakers in at least 9 iron but the last time I ordered it I got 10 1/2- 11 iron (just looking at the communications between Baker and my self back in '99) . Again I can split it to 9 iron or even a bit less if I want and no fault occurs. As for the tallow...hey, I'm consistent if nothing else. I don't see a downside to tallowing even the Baker.

If you wear a shoe that breathes...and Nikes and other "entry level" footwear most certainly do not...your shoes will not "stink," as you so succinctly put it, near as much if at all. I'm in boots all day and neither my feet nor my boots smell like anything other than sweet leather. Wear cotton, too. That's important.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Mike,

I'm not Al but as I understand it Colonial Williamsburg does bring in Baker insole shoulders and has done for some time. However, Colonial Williamsburg is not allowed to sell, or distribute these goods to the general public...they are for internal use only.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC