"The Art and Mysterie..."
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das
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Yes, very nice, but what's that little wobble in the side-seam just below the pull-strap stitching? I have to ask
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dw
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Al,
Well, I think that's an artifact of the thickness of the pulls combined with the treeing process...Hey, truth to tell, I don't know. It's not like I designed a "wow" in the sideseam just below the pulls. And there's no reason for the boot to develop a distortion there while lasting...*or* treeing. So...??!!
I get some "wowing," with full cuts (usually lower on the boot that this), on occasion, that I don't get with my dress wellingtons. Drives me nuts! Not always and not apparent til I tree them. I'm not sure if it's from my trees, or something in the way the leather is stretched or strained while crimping, or what. I console myself in that I've seldom seen an historical full wellington that didn't also have some wowing in the sideseam. But I don't like it and I think it detracts from the boot.
If you have some ideas I'd like to hear them. I'll sit at your knee and bring you sweetmeats and iced tea if you can solve (or help me solve) this one!
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Well, I think that's an artifact of the thickness of the pulls combined with the treeing process...Hey, truth to tell, I don't know. It's not like I designed a "wow" in the sideseam just below the pulls. And there's no reason for the boot to develop a distortion there while lasting...*or* treeing. So...??!!
I get some "wowing," with full cuts (usually lower on the boot that this), on occasion, that I don't get with my dress wellingtons. Drives me nuts! Not always and not apparent til I tree them. I'm not sure if it's from my trees, or something in the way the leather is stretched or strained while crimping, or what. I console myself in that I've seldom seen an historical full wellington that didn't also have some wowing in the sideseam. But I don't like it and I think it detracts from the boot.
If you have some ideas I'd like to hear them. I'll sit at your knee and bring you sweetmeats and iced tea if you can solve (or help me solve) this one!
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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das
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
DW,
Hummm...bring me a steamin' platter of haggis with tatties and 'neeps and you're on, or help me split some of the firewood left out back after Isabel....
I've had the same "wow" in side-seamed boots, and chalked it up to the pulls being so thick and substantial that when treed out on the trees, the leg gets distorted--like lasting an upper over a "lump" on the last can pull the seam out of line.
Don't quote me, but I think some of the "wow" you've seen in 19th c. boots, down at the bottom, is similarly caused. The pattern pieces may be dead perfect, but after you add the extra bulk and thickness of the stiffener, and pull them onto the last, the rear leg get over-strained trying to mold to the heel curve of the last, which draws the side-seam backwards out of line, "wowing" to the rear--the distortion is always to the rear, right?. The way I've mitigated that [only somewhat], is in drafting the patterns, being sure to add extra depth for the thickness of the stiffener, plus some more for the "orange peel effect" that some don't believe exists
My way around the "wow" at the pulls--and it's just theory--might be to cut the leg over measure up there so it wouldn't need to be treed-out so far to get it up to measure. Yup--cut it "too big". Either that or use thinner pull material. Half of your pull is already on the outside, so there may not be much latitude to play with though.
Interestingly, in Dan's talk on springing/deadening patterns at Old Sturbridge Village/HCC AGM last month, one of his most excellent hand-outs mentioned an article on just this--'The Orange Peel Factor' in shoe patternmaking. This is to appear in a forthcoming book: 'A Modern Approach to Footwear Pattern Cutting' by David Lyon (Leicester, UK), which now is coming out in a series of articles Robert Lucas had supplied him with.
Dan,
Do you have that article yet, since the book isn't out that I know of?
Frank,
Do you have any insights into this, or the forthcoming book?
Hummm...bring me a steamin' platter of haggis with tatties and 'neeps and you're on, or help me split some of the firewood left out back after Isabel....
I've had the same "wow" in side-seamed boots, and chalked it up to the pulls being so thick and substantial that when treed out on the trees, the leg gets distorted--like lasting an upper over a "lump" on the last can pull the seam out of line.
Don't quote me, but I think some of the "wow" you've seen in 19th c. boots, down at the bottom, is similarly caused. The pattern pieces may be dead perfect, but after you add the extra bulk and thickness of the stiffener, and pull them onto the last, the rear leg get over-strained trying to mold to the heel curve of the last, which draws the side-seam backwards out of line, "wowing" to the rear--the distortion is always to the rear, right?. The way I've mitigated that [only somewhat], is in drafting the patterns, being sure to add extra depth for the thickness of the stiffener, plus some more for the "orange peel effect" that some don't believe exists
My way around the "wow" at the pulls--and it's just theory--might be to cut the leg over measure up there so it wouldn't need to be treed-out so far to get it up to measure. Yup--cut it "too big". Either that or use thinner pull material. Half of your pull is already on the outside, so there may not be much latitude to play with though.
Interestingly, in Dan's talk on springing/deadening patterns at Old Sturbridge Village/HCC AGM last month, one of his most excellent hand-outs mentioned an article on just this--'The Orange Peel Factor' in shoe patternmaking. This is to appear in a forthcoming book: 'A Modern Approach to Footwear Pattern Cutting' by David Lyon (Leicester, UK), which now is coming out in a series of articles Robert Lucas had supplied him with.
Dan,
Do you have that article yet, since the book isn't out that I know of?
Frank,
Do you have any insights into this, or the forthcoming book?
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shane
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Dw,
I know this may sound stupid, but Why don't you tree the tops then put in your pulls ?
Shane
I know this may sound stupid, but Why don't you tree the tops then put in your pulls ?
Shane
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dw
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Shane,
I guess the only reason is that when I tree my tops I'm trying to get the tops round and straight and crisp. If I put the pulls on after treeing, I'd ruin the effects of treeing trying to sew the pulls on. Then I'd have to tree them all over again!
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I guess the only reason is that when I tree my tops I'm trying to get the tops round and straight and crisp. If I put the pulls on after treeing, I'd ruin the effects of treeing trying to sew the pulls on. Then I'd have to tree them all over again!
Tight Stitches
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dw
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Al,
The strange thing is that my trees aren't really solid all the way across. In fact, when treeing, the pulls are in open air. I think it probably has more to do with the quality of the leather. The top of the front blocker was in some pretty loose stuff. The backs were a lot firmer, in the same area.
Actually the "wow on my boots and the wows I recall seeing on 19th C. boots (hell, Al, I'm an old man, give me a break, my memory has never been good...what was your name again? ) anyway, the wow was, and is (on mine), to the front. And right about where the pass line would be. I have a sneaking suspicion it has something to do with how high the seats are when you start lasting. Otherwise, I can't explain it. And to make matters worse, sometimes there will be a wow on one side of the boot and not the other!!?
As far as the "orange peel" factor...I don't know that I've ever discounted it. I seem to recall having a discussion here on the Forum where I raised the subject. On the other hand , I have a hard time seeing it as being a factor in the heel stiffener. To my way of thinking for the orange peel factor to be a factor it has to affect both sides of an object. the stiffener surely adds something to the back of the pattern that will do something. But directly opposite the heel stiffener is...infinity! In the long run a thicker heel stiffener, as opposed to a thinner one, might affect exactly where on the last the tab falls or where the toe bug ends up. But it shouldn't affect how the shoe/boot fits.
How can it be otherwise...[ invitation to explain ]
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
The strange thing is that my trees aren't really solid all the way across. In fact, when treeing, the pulls are in open air. I think it probably has more to do with the quality of the leather. The top of the front blocker was in some pretty loose stuff. The backs were a lot firmer, in the same area.
Actually the "wow on my boots and the wows I recall seeing on 19th C. boots (hell, Al, I'm an old man, give me a break, my memory has never been good...what was your name again?
) anyway, the wow was, and is (on mine), to the front. And right about where the pass line would be. I have a sneaking suspicion it has something to do with how high the seats are when you start lasting. Otherwise, I can't explain it. And to make matters worse, sometimes there will be a wow on one side of the boot and not the other!!? As far as the "orange peel" factor...I don't know that I've ever discounted it. I seem to recall having a discussion here on the Forum where I raised the subject. On the other hand , I have a hard time seeing it as being a factor in the heel stiffener. To my way of thinking for the orange peel factor to be a factor it has to affect both sides of an object. the stiffener surely adds something to the back of the pattern that will do something. But directly opposite the heel stiffener is...infinity! In the long run a thicker heel stiffener, as opposed to a thinner one, might affect exactly where on the last the tab falls or where the toe bug ends up. But it shouldn't affect how the shoe/boot fits.
How can it be otherwise...[ invitation to explain ]
Tight Stitches
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cmw
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Al and DW
This may truely seem like a beginners question. Are you saying that everybody doesn't figure on the thickness of the stiffiner when making the pattern? Is there anybody out there that wants to tell me about this?
The design methods I learned in school are from the cordwainers school (Franks book) and they include adjusting the pattern with the stiffener in mind. To explain, my teacher in design was in London for a year.
I think it was 4 mm at the base of the heal with a standard shoe.
BTW, Did you have a good trip Frank?
CW
This may truely seem like a beginners question. Are you saying that everybody doesn't figure on the thickness of the stiffiner when making the pattern? Is there anybody out there that wants to tell me about this?
The design methods I learned in school are from the cordwainers school (Franks book) and they include adjusting the pattern with the stiffener in mind. To explain, my teacher in design was in London for a year.
I think it was 4 mm at the base of the heal with a standard shoe.
BTW, Did you have a good trip Frank?
CW
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tmattimore
Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
D.W.
A dern fine boot. If that is the worst wow you get my hat is off. You mention your tree is open. A picture would be nice. I am contemplating the purchase of a factory leg steamer to eliminate the wow problem or making one myself with a hat steamer and adustable leg stretcher.
I assume that you are coming down in height to a 7/8 in heel did you lower your pass line on the front to accomadate?
Tmattimore
A dern fine boot. If that is the worst wow you get my hat is off. You mention your tree is open. A picture would be nice. I am contemplating the purchase of a factory leg steamer to eliminate the wow problem or making one myself with a hat steamer and adustable leg stretcher.
I assume that you are coming down in height to a 7/8 in heel did you lower your pass line on the front to accomadate?
Tmattimore
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dw
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Tom,
I'll take a photo, but have you ever seen a Mallory boot top stretcher? Aluminium, with a handle on top? My trees are modeled on the Mallory. But taller.
Thank you for the compliment. you make far more FW's than I do, so it means a lot to me.
How would a factory leg steamer eliminate the wow? Now you've got me wondering...
As for lowering the passline...well, dern it...that's just not in the picture for me. I mean I have always known that that was one way to go...maybe... but I've taken another approach based on the steel and brass patterns I've seen. (And it is even possible that I am misinterpreting the significance of the patterns, in this regard.) But my approach has always been to overcrimp, first and foremost, and then cut the side of the blocker differently for each heel height. So I am looking for a "universal" passline/break point no matter what heel height I am about to make.
I have always found that making a full wellington at 2 1/4" heel height was pretty easy. In fact, When I was first starting, I was often able to salvage a "failed" boot designed for 1 5/8" heel by putting it on a higher heeed last. The fact that I was able to *design* and make the FW at 7/8" heel was, for me a test, and a proof of concept. That's actually the reason why I said that these were a big deal for me.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I'll take a photo, but have you ever seen a Mallory boot top stretcher? Aluminium, with a handle on top? My trees are modeled on the Mallory. But taller.
Thank you for the compliment. you make far more FW's than I do, so it means a lot to me.
How would a factory leg steamer eliminate the wow? Now you've got me wondering...
As for lowering the passline...well, dern it...that's just not in the picture for me. I mean I have always known that that was one way to go...maybe... but I've taken another approach based on the steel and brass patterns I've seen. (And it is even possible that I am misinterpreting the significance of the patterns, in this regard.) But my approach has always been to overcrimp, first and foremost, and then cut the side of the blocker differently for each heel height. So I am looking for a "universal" passline/break point no matter what heel height I am about to make.
I have always found that making a full wellington at 2 1/4" heel height was pretty easy. In fact, When I was first starting, I was often able to salvage a "failed" boot designed for 1 5/8" heel by putting it on a higher heeed last. The fact that I was able to *design* and make the FW at 7/8" heel was, for me a test, and a proof of concept. That's actually the reason why I said that these were a big deal for me.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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tmattimore
Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
I agree with the universal pass line I was wondering if it would need to change with heel height. My problem with side seams has come from making boots for gentlemen of a "handsome" calf up to 24". which sometimes makes a boot more resembeling a galvanized pail soldered on top of a funnel. The leg steamer I saw was on a tour of a factory down in mexico it looked like a vertical stretcher that blew steam into the boot then expanded like a stretcher. The operator worked the boot by hand until the seams were straight and took what appeared to be a sleeker to work out wrinkles and smooth the side seams.
I dont imagine the steam was too hot otherwise it would do more harm then good which is why I was thinking of a hat steamer.
tmattimore
I dont imagine the steam was too hot otherwise it would do more harm then good which is why I was thinking of a hat steamer.
tmattimore
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dw
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Tom,
I wish I had been there to see that. I have tried to work side seams by hand when the leather was wet without much success. It's hard for me to imagine that the steam would make that much difference.
I got the photo of my tree (it's not much, believe me) and I'll try to post it sometime this weekend.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I wish I had been there to see that. I have tried to work side seams by hand when the leather was wet without much success. It's hard for me to imagine that the steam would make that much difference.
I got the photo of my tree (it's not much, believe me) and I'll try to post it sometime this weekend.
Tight Stitches
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dw
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Chris,
Well, off the top of my head I'd say maybe everybody but me figures in the thickness of the heel stiffener. I can only attribute that to the fact that the way I make boots...even packers (which are really a high top shoe)...I don't have a lining over the heel stiffener. It's counter cover and counter (heel stiffener) only. The tops or the quarters are sewn directly to the heel stiffeners. The vamp which would correspond to the other half of the "orange peel" is essentially open to infinity until it is lasted. My logic says the heel stiffener can't affect fit.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Well, off the top of my head I'd say maybe everybody but me figures in the thickness of the heel stiffener. I can only attribute that to the fact that the way I make boots...even packers (which are really a high top shoe)...I don't have a lining over the heel stiffener. It's counter cover and counter (heel stiffener) only. The tops or the quarters are sewn directly to the heel stiffeners. The vamp which would correspond to the other half of the "orange peel" is essentially open to infinity until it is lasted. My logic says the heel stiffener can't affect fit.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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shane
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
DW,
I know what your are saying concerning treeing and then sewing in your pulls after ruining the treeing job. And no one likes to do things twice. But, you have a problem with a wiggle in your side seem caused (IMO) because your pull won't let your tops stretch in that area as much as they stretch below the pulls. If I am wrong disregard my logic. I also assume that you,as I do, sew your pulls on before you last the boot. I also turn my boots wet(another debate entirely). After I turn my boots I set them up to dry. I put my trees in at this time and carefully, gently, tighten the trees. I don't do this for asthetic reasons, but rather to keep the tops from 'curling' in at the side seams. But the added benefit is that when they dry my side seams are straight top to bottom. And when I put my pulls on I am not fighting the seam. It doesn't take more than two minutes to put the trees in. My tops are open and straight when I last the boots also. One major draw back is the time it takes the tops to dry is longer. And I also tree the boots when I am completed with the boot. My side seams are almost always straight, at least on my tops.
Shane
I know what your are saying concerning treeing and then sewing in your pulls after ruining the treeing job. And no one likes to do things twice. But, you have a problem with a wiggle in your side seem caused (IMO) because your pull won't let your tops stretch in that area as much as they stretch below the pulls. If I am wrong disregard my logic. I also assume that you,as I do, sew your pulls on before you last the boot. I also turn my boots wet(another debate entirely). After I turn my boots I set them up to dry. I put my trees in at this time and carefully, gently, tighten the trees. I don't do this for asthetic reasons, but rather to keep the tops from 'curling' in at the side seams. But the added benefit is that when they dry my side seams are straight top to bottom. And when I put my pulls on I am not fighting the seam. It doesn't take more than two minutes to put the trees in. My tops are open and straight when I last the boots also. One major draw back is the time it takes the tops to dry is longer. And I also tree the boots when I am completed with the boot. My side seams are almost always straight, at least on my tops.
Shane
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dw
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Shane,
Your method sounds like it works good for you. I think the only criteria that means anything is that when the boot is finished it looks crisp and professional. Once I get in "finishing" mode, I am very careful with the boots--careful never to set them down on a rough surface (I always have a piece of leather under the finished sole) careful never to bend the tops or the vamps. That kind of thing.
the strange thing is that I cannot remember the last time I even noticed much less had a problem with the side seam "wowing" on my dress wellingtons. It only happens on the full wellington, and in strange places. I use 3 crimping irons to crimp the front blockers, one at, or slightly above the throat area. i consider this a really crucial iron but I also think it may be the ultimate culprit for sideseam wow. Why? Because there is more stretch taken out of that particular area than anywhere else along the side seam. And certainly more taken out of the front blocker there than is taken out of the back blocker anywhere--despite the fact that I do block my backs.
That said, I generally keep it pretty much under control. Check out the photos in this topic (up in the archives, probably). Admittedly those are choice boots but there's nary a "wow" to be seen.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Your method sounds like it works good for you. I think the only criteria that means anything is that when the boot is finished it looks crisp and professional. Once I get in "finishing" mode, I am very careful with the boots--careful never to set them down on a rough surface (I always have a piece of leather under the finished sole) careful never to bend the tops or the vamps. That kind of thing.
the strange thing is that I cannot remember the last time I even noticed much less had a problem with the side seam "wowing" on my dress wellingtons. It only happens on the full wellington, and in strange places. I use 3 crimping irons to crimp the front blockers, one at, or slightly above the throat area. i consider this a really crucial iron but I also think it may be the ultimate culprit for sideseam wow. Why? Because there is more stretch taken out of that particular area than anywhere else along the side seam. And certainly more taken out of the front blocker there than is taken out of the back blocker anywhere--despite the fact that I do block my backs.
That said, I generally keep it pretty much under control. Check out the photos in this topic (up in the archives, probably). Admittedly those are choice boots but there's nary a "wow" to be seen.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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dw
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Tom,
Better late than never! Here's a photo of the trees I'm using. Like I said, they aren't much...especially compared to the $600.00 a pair trees that were discussed some time ago. But they've always worked pretty good for me.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Better late than never! Here's a photo of the trees I'm using. Like I said, they aren't much...especially compared to the $600.00 a pair trees that were discussed some time ago. But they've always worked pretty good for me.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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tmattimore
Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Thanks. They look fairly simple I will take some wood clamp hardware and try to make some.
Tom
Tom
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marc
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
I just got sent this link and I thought I'd share it. I've never seen this style before and it's definately worth a going over.
http://www.thefriars.org/archives/sandals/
Marc
http://www.thefriars.org/archives/sandals/
Marc
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das
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Marc,
Brother Sebastian Tobin, a Franciscan in NYC, still makes these, is an HCCer from way back, and hopefully is on-line or can comment. He once told me that his sandal pattern goes back several hundred years.
Brother Sebastian Tobin, a Franciscan in NYC, still makes these, is an HCCer from way back, and hopefully is on-line or can comment. He once told me that his sandal pattern goes back several hundred years.
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anon
Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Marc
A wonderful site! I particularly liked the drawing of the smiling cow near the end. Clearly both sandals and instructions are the work of a master artisan, given the attention to detail.
Thanks for sharing it.
Peter Monahan
A wonderful site! I particularly liked the drawing of the smiling cow near the end. Clearly both sandals and instructions are the work of a master artisan, given the attention to detail.
Thanks for sharing it.
Peter Monahan
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marc
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
I recently did an experiment with trying an 18th century shoe, and was just reminded that you all might want to see it too (or not )
I'm planning on doing another one after, assuming that I can learn how to do things correctly this time.
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe2/testshoe/index.htm
Marc
) I'm planning on doing another one after, assuming that I can learn how to do things correctly this time.
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe2/testshoe/index.htm
Marc
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shoestring
Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Hey Marc,
I think you did a fine first time job and the shot's were great also.
Ed
I think you did a fine first time job and the shot's were great also.
Ed
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marc
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Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Thank you. I've been getting a lot of practice lately with the camera (having finally made the great technological leap from digital to film ).
I've done non-medieval shoes before, but have generally stuck with a blend of assembly details from a variety of centuries. So this is the first time I've done things like the rand and separate piece sole for the heel.
Marc
). I've done non-medieval shoes before, but have generally stuck with a blend of assembly details from a variety of centuries. So this is the first time I've done things like the rand and separate piece sole for the heel.
Marc
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Lisa Cresson
Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Dear Marc,
That shoe really has alot of character!
On another note, I recently saw this web site that has pages from a monk's notebook on sandal making.
http://www.thefriars.org/archives/sandals/
I don't have much expertise to offer at the present, just my research on footwear construction.
Regards,
Lisa
That shoe really has alot of character!
On another note, I recently saw this web site that has pages from a monk's notebook on sandal making.
http://www.thefriars.org/archives/sandals/
I don't have much expertise to offer at the present, just my research on footwear construction.
Regards,
Lisa
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marc
- 5
- Posts: 272
- Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:00 am
- Full Name: Marc Carlson
- Location: Tulsa, Ok, USA
- Been Liked: 2 times
- Contact:
Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Lisa,
Thanks for the link (and yes, the shoe is great, at least to wear).
Research is good
Marc
Thanks for the link (and yes, the shoe is great, at least to wear).
Research is good
Marc
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dmcharg
- 5
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 9:00 am
- Full Name: Duncan McHarg
- Location: Clunes, Victoria, Australia
- Been Liked: 21 times
- Contact:
Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."
Beut shoes marc, I like them.
Question; Is there a heel counter (stiffner) in them?
Hope I can get back to reguarly getting to the library to log on.It's been ages. Made two pairs in the last month or so (the last one only took 4 days, and I really enjoyed myself. I'm rapped). I think the Sabbatical is drawing to a close, with (I hope) many, many boots and shoes to follow.
Good work again Marc.
Cheers
Duncan
Question; Is there a heel counter (stiffner) in them?
Hope I can get back to reguarly getting to the library to log on.It's been ages. Made two pairs in the last month or so (the last one only took 4 days, and I really enjoyed myself. I'm rapped). I think the Sabbatical is drawing to a close, with (I hope) many, many boots and shoes to follow.
Good work again Marc.
Cheers
Duncan