Lasting

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Re: Lasting

#751 Post by lancepryor » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:06 am

dw wrote:
lancepryor wrote: I generally use a lining weight veg tan for my 'side linings.' These go from the heel counter to the toe puff, overlapping each of those so you have a continuous line of leather along the heel/side/toe of the shoe. I've also seen, IIRC, upper weight chrome tanned used, but I like the notion of a more water absorbent and water permeable leather in there. I paste the skiver top edge of the side liner/stiffener to the lining with Hirschkleber; I've also seen it done with rubber cement. You want something that will remain pliable when it dries. I mount it grain side in, so that I can refine the top edge near the toe puff as needed.
Interesting. I do it only slightly different (not saying one way is better than the other)--I mount the fleshside inward so that any irregularities with the skive doesn't shadow on the outside of the vamp. I also put the toe stiffener over the side liner. :tinfoil:
I likewise put the stiffener on top of the side liner (not sure if I was clear about that earlier). The refining of the edge I referred to was in the vamp area behind the toe puff.

I have seen the side lining mounted on top of the toe puff. I think it is more difficult to make the side lining invisible when doing it that way.

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Re: Lasts

#752 Post by Crack3r » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:20 pm

Hello all!

I am a newbie and looking for some help with lasts. I'm planning on relating three pairs of my boots, all with a similar toe profile and heel height. Two are pull on boots and one is a lace up. One pair of pull-ons was about a half size too big and this is why I have decided to relast. The other two needed soles and insoles.

I'm having trouble deciding on a last. I have measured my foot and found the length to be right at 290 which should be a US 11.5, which is correct. Girth at the ball is 260 which is normally a standard width, i think. I've been talking with a man from springlike and found a last to fit, the price is good too.

My questions are: What problems may I encounter when using one last for two different types of boots? Does anyone know of a U.S. based company (or eBay seller) that is good for sourcing lasts with a full round toe and low heel?

(lastly, is this a good place to ask about lasting or should that be in the technique forum?)

Thanks!

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Re: Lasting

#753 Post by dw » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:01 pm

Crack3r,

It can be done but lasts for pull-on boots are generally different from lasts for lace-up boots (or "high top shoes," as they might properly be called). I wouldn't recommend it actually.

What's more, relasting on a different last is never a "gimme" even if the style is the same.

When shoes are lasted there is excess that is pulled over the last. When they are inseamed...whether by hand or by machine...that excess is trimmed away. And while this may at first seem counter-intuitive, it doesn't really matter if the length and the ball girth is the same or not...although how you would determine if the the new last is even similar to the original last...esp. in the absence of the original last, I'm sure I don't know.

The upshot is that even if the dimensions of the new last are identical to the original last, there's very little if any margin to grab with the pincers, much less tack down prior to inseaming.

But beyond all that, despite how it may appear, this is not, by any means, an easy thing to do for a "newbie." I'm sure it seems like relasting is just a form of reverse engineering...and that might be true if you had the original last, in the original size and the original toe shape...but relasting on a different last carries its own set of special problems that are not so straight-forward. It's not really like reverse engineering at all--it's more like trying to put a working machine back together when you've lost three screws and two critical parts.

The best advice anyone could give someone just getting into this business is to make a pair or two of boots/shoes from scratch first...lasting with a lasting allowance, inseaming and trimming that lasting allowance...before trying to relast a pair of shoes or boots.

FWIW...
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Re: Lasting

#754 Post by Crack3r » Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:02 am

DW,

Thanks you for the information! If you were going to relast a pair of shoes, what would you do? How would you go about tacking the upper while insetting, or grabbing it since there is so little? I am wondering how the pros do it!

I see your point on this being too large a task for someone just starting out, not to say I won't give it a shot, but I do want to walk through it in my head regardless.

Since I would be sizing down a small amount and losing the steel toe, would that help by offering up a small bit of leather to tack? or would it be negligible?

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Re: Lasting

#755 Post by Crack3r » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:52 am

Also, What is the difference in lasts for these two types of shoes?

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Re: Lasting

#756 Post by dw » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:54 am

Crack3r » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:52 am wrote:Also, What is the difference in lasts for these two types of shoes?
Well, for simplicity's sake consider any lace-up boot as a "high top shoe" (which it technically is). The patterns are generally derived directly from the shape and dimensions of the last.

A pull-on boot such as a riding boot or a wellington (cowboy boot), is patterned differently and uses different lasts.

A boot last will have a higher cone, generally speaking, and the heel profile will be less curved. This results in less cupping in the heel of the boot--the heel stiffener will be flatter. And that's critical simply because with a pull-on boot there are no laces to provide ease or access for the foot. The heel of the foot must slide into the boot against the resistance and constriction of the shaft and the vamp. If the heel stiffener is cupped, the heel of the foot will hang up on the top edge.

A "shoe last" can be modified to make a pull-on boot...just as an oxford last may be modified to make loafers or slippers...but doing so isn't for the faint of heart or the untutored. Sometimes it involves cutting away or shifting substance such that the last is permanently modified. And without an appreciation for the complexities of the last...the shapes and proportionality...the last itself can be virtually ruined.
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Re: Lasting

#757 Post by dw » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:22 am

Crack3r » Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:02 am wrote:DW,

Thanks you for the information! If you were going to relast a pair of shoes, what would you do? How would you go about tacking the upper while insetting, or grabbing it since there is so little? I am wondering how the pros do it!

I see your point on this being too large a task for someone just starting out, not to say I won't give it a shot, but I do want to walk through it in my head regardless.

Since I would be sizing down a small amount and losing the steel toe, would that help by offering up a small bit of leather to tack? or would it be negligible?
Well, first I would probably not attempt it except under extreme duress. But I have a sense...from 40 plus years of making...where the toe of the shoe goes in relation to the center of the toe of the last. Etc.

Yes, it would be better if the upper was made for a bigger last than you were relasting to. But without the original last, how are you going to know that? Maybe the new last is smaller around in the ball joint area...but bigger everywhere else. Insole (last) widths are critical, as well. I suspect that the treadline and heel seat width can be an issue, even if the girths are the same or smaller...if only because a wider treadline on the new last will skew the alignment of the shoe.

Most after-the-fact, in-factory relasting/recrafting will be done on the same last or a slightly smaller last. With lasting machines. And because the shape and proportions of the last are the same, the shoe just settles into place.

For bespoke makers, relasting will be done before the excess is trimmed--to correct a trial fitting, for example. And hopefully, ideally, the issue will never arise again--in some ways it's almost easier...and certainly more satisfying...to just remake the shoe from scratch..

For someone in your situation...for someone like myself, even...relasting is a catch-as-catch-can situation. Each pair of shoes will require something a little different. You might sew a strip of leather to the edges of the vamp after you've torn everything apart. This will give you something to grab with your pincers. I have relasted boots to both a longer and wider configuration...simultaneously. But I started with the same last as was used originally and fundamentally I simply stretched the boots (with some "sneaky bits" thrown in) before I took it apart and re-inseamed/reconstructed it.

Each maker has his own bag of tricks---mine relies chiefly on not finding myself needing to relast a shoe.

Don't get me wrong you can relast your shoes/boots but the chances approach certainty that when you're done you may be unhappy with the results.
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Re: Lasting

#758 Post by Crack3r » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:00 am

DW,

Again, thank you! You've answered my questions explicitly. I may decide on having someone with some more experience relast them for me and I can continue on the soling.

G

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Re: Lasting

#759 Post by Crack3r » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:25 am

I lied,

When you measure the foot, how does length relate to the length of the last?

Let's say a foot is right about 290mm in length (mine). Obviously this foot wouldn't be able to use a 290mm last because it would be too small. I have been reading through the forum, is the 1/11th rule correct here?

So a 290mm foot / 11 = 26.36 +290 = 316.36mm / 12.44 in.

So here, would 316 mm be an appropriate length for a last for this foot?

Question 2: I know there isn't any such thing as a "standard" when it comes to sizing but I have a width question. My foot measures in at 11cm/4.3" in width at the widest point. I know this isn't a good size for creating lasts but I am trying to wade through some on eBay and all the "D" widths I find seem to be well under 4" in width. Any ideas here?

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Re: Lasting

#760 Post by dw » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:18 am

The 1/11th approach comes from the chapter entitled Sabbage's Sectionizer in Golding.

Personally, I think it is a really good place to start. And with just a quick look it appears you have the math correct.

Bear in mind, however, that LOF (length of foot or "stick") is not the be all and end all. Far more important is the heel to ball measurement.

And the toe shape can have some affect on the overall length of the last. A narrow round toed shoe wants to be longer than a wide round toe. Sabbage's Sectionizer is predicated on a medium round toe...whatever that means (but it's not wide round or narrow round).

As for width I am a firm believer that the insole should closely correspond to the footprint in terms of width, esp. in weight-bearing areas of the foot. This is where treadline and heelseat width are critical.

But the foot often "overhangs" the footprint. So the widest part of your foot may not be relevant...esp. when compared to a last which is, in all likelihood being measured from featherline to featherline--the putative edges of the insole.

And again, as you say, there is no standard...two lasts can be designated a "D" and in fact measure the same around the ball girth but the treadline widths be very different. This is common in some western boot lasts and many women's lasts as it makes the resulting footwear look slimmer and more elegant...nevermind any potential health problems...at least until the shoe is worn a while and the leather relaxes a little and the foot reasserts its natural contours.

It's worth remembering that...1) the foot is one of the most architecturally complex structures in nature; 2) that the closer the last models the foot the more comfortable and healthy the shoe will be; and 3) when fitting up a last, most of the measurements are interdependent on each other--as one girth changes some other girth/measurement/relationship must also. If the maker doesn't understand that interdependency and those relationships...and the implications...modifying lasts, whether it be additive or esp. subtractive, is always a game of brinksmanship, if not smoke and mirrors.
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Re: Lasting

#761 Post by Crack3r » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:47 am

Again, thank you! I finished reading through Golding 1 & 4 today and have much to think on.

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Re: Lasting

#762 Post by songcaz » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:20 pm

Not really sure if I am asking in the right place - never mind - keep going! I am going to make some stitchdown lace up ankle boots for the first time - can anyone point me in the right direction for advice on lasting this type of shoe. I have seen countless videos on lasting traditional shoes when you pull the upper around to the underside of the last and tack it. But of course, I want it to go outwards rather than underneath. It would be really useful to watch someone do it on a video. I have made a practice boot in thick felt to check the size and now its time to get on with the real thing but I am worried about wasting expensive leather.
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Re: Lasting

#763 Post by dw » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:40 am

On the several occasions I have done this, I have simply lasted as normal but used a greater lasting allowance and tacking further from the edge of the insole. When the leather has dried and / or set, I paste the liners to the insole and simply turn the upper outward.

If you are inseaming, this is dead simple--do your inseaming first, then turn the upper outward. You don't even need to paste the liner.

If you're doing cement construction, the liner could be fixed to the insole with cement instead of paste and even whip stitched. Then the turned-out-edge-of-the-upper needs to be cemented to a midsole at which point the midsole and upper are trimmed to the shape and size you desire.

Personally, I would always inseam on this style of shoe. And if not, I would, at least, always whip stitch the liner to the insole.
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Re: Lasting

#764 Post by songcaz » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:32 am

Thanks DW for your advice. Have you ever seen a video of anyone using this technique?
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Re: Lasting

#765 Post by dw » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:16 pm

songcaz » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:32 am wrote:Thanks DW for your advice. Have you ever seen a video of anyone using this technique?
Carol
When I first got into making boots and shoes, there were no videos. Maybe a few...a very few...home movies.

Frankly, I'm not real sanguine on videos. Yes, some are OK...maybe even a little bit better than OK. But most are made by people not much beyond the learning stage themselves. And certainly no substitute for learning, in person, from a professional--someone who has made his/her living at the Trade and been doing it for more than six months.

Pardon my cynicism.
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Re: Lasting

#766 Post by RodMomtazi » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:35 pm

I don't know if this is the right section of the site to post on but here we go. Recently I tried making a pair of chukkas with a regular shoe last (maybe where I went wrong) and as I tried to pull it out the seam in the back tore open. I don't know if it's because the leather was too hard, whether I tried to pull out the last too aggressively, whether I lasted too snugly (I wet lasted it) or whether I should have used a boot last... help!
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Re: Lasting

#767 Post by paul » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:30 am

Hello Rod,
First look, suggests you might be right about the leather. That's quite a bust out! Was it old leather or just "hard"? Either could be responsibly.

Do you have a view of the last so we could see what style it was?

From what we can see, it looks as if you've done a fine job. Disappointing none the less
If it's any consolation I have a box, actually a couple of them, with learning curve fails.
Start another soon.
Paul

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Re: Lasting

#768 Post by dw » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:45 am

I'll second what Paul said about boxes full of rejects and starting another pair immediately. Good advice.

So... a couple of questions / comments that might help you discover and resolve the problem:

(Don't ask me how I know these... :wink_smile: )

What kind of hinge does the last have? A photo would be good. I would immediately suspect the last and the way it is hinged except that the rip is so high above the counter point.

When you create the backseam, bear in mind that the better part of wisdom is to skive only so much that when you sew it, the stitching is still in full thickness leather.

Beyond that, in the photo it appears that you stitched a line on either side of the seam. When this is done, usually, a strip of canvas or nylon or some other woven reinforcement ("stay") is placed behind the seam before that additional stitching (on either side) is done--it's the reason it is done. The additional stitching anchors the cloth "stay" in place. Any ripping would have to tear through that stay as well as the leather. Photos can be deceiving but I don't see any stay material in the rip.

Has the leather been dry split (by the tanner? supplier)? Do you know? I'm sure you cut the quarters from prime leather but did you "test" it? Take a piece of scrap and cut a small slit in the edge try to rip it along that cut.

Here's a suggestion for when you re-make these shoes (and it will afford you an opportunity to learn something new at the same time)--use the back line of your standard to create a blocker board and make the quarters one piece. This avoids not only the backseam (which can be problematic as far as ensuring it is straight and centered anyway) but also any possibility of ripping. If you shape the blocking board correctly you can put the heel curve in as well or better than with a pieced seam. That said, if you were making a low quarter shoe, (without the above-ankle shaping) you wouldn't even need to block the one piece quarter--all that surplus can be drafted under quite handily.

Hope that helps...
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Re: Lasting

#769 Post by RodMomtazi » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:15 pm

So.. the leather I was using was a calf, probably too stiff for the purposes of making a chukka, but I think if I had dipped it in water for a little bit and then took the last off I 'may have' been able to prevent the tear... I think the real reason why it tore is because the thread I was using for the seam was too thin, not enough weight to the thread, I tried with a heavier thread to mock the seam and tried tearing it apart with no success, so it was actually 'a success'and the reason for the tear was light weight thread. The last I used was an alfa-hinge (picture attached) from el-arbol.

In terms of using a blocking board, as dw has mentioned, I have no familiarity with it until I get some shoe maker to show me its application.

and yes I did use rub down seam tape from jaeger but still managed to tear. and the reason why it probably tore above the counter point is because the back stiffner managed to prevent the tear below the CP, my guess..

maybe the lesson of the story: 1. when wet lasting re-wet when taking off? 2. with stiffer leather do not last as tight? 3. use appropriate weight of thread..! 4. do not pull off the last too quickly?

just some thoughts, not necessarily the true reason for the tear!
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Re: Lasting

#770 Post by dw » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:07 am

Something I've been working on for a while...through several iterations...
20170626_075845 (1600 x 1200).jpg
begin the beguine
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Re: Lasting

#771 Post by dw » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:15 pm

20170330_080935 (1600 x 1200).jpg
an abiding infatuation
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Re: Lasting

#772 Post by dw » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:37 am

20170330_080710 (1600 x 1200).jpg
the pipes of the souter
20170330_080857 (1600 x 1200).jpg
Dia eadarainn 's an t-olc
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Re: Lasting

#773 Post by dw » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:44 am

20170330_091417 (1600 x 1200).jpg
"wha'll be king but Tcharlach...?"
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Re: Lasting

#774 Post by dw » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:57 am

clear and clean around backpart--left...
20170330_100133 (1600 x 1200).jpg
20170330_100126 (1600 x 1200).jpg
20170330_100113 (1600 x 1200).jpg
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Re: Lasting

#775 Post by dw » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:07 am

Right (still a little damp)...
20170330_100000 (1600 x 1200).jpg
20170330_095937 (1600 x 1200).jpg
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