I'd like to ask about Angelus products, any comments about them? I have a chance to be in LA in a week, and might stop by.

What Angelus products are you interested in?

John - I decided to go with Fiebings, so sorry for not responding about Angelus.

Could someone give a basic round down of finishing edges? I am trying to put together a workflow of steps and options to consider. Here is what I have so far:


1) prepare raw edge - rub down and/or burnish; could someone elaborate? What else is there to do? Is this done with a bone stick? I saw that Ron's tools had an 'edge rub', which might harden the edges while rubbing - anyone tried it? http://www.ronstools.com/images/ronsedgerub.jpg

2a) apply dye to smoothed edge. Is there any reason for applying more than one color to the edge? Can you apply antiquing? Seems like end grain will soak it all in together into one color.

3) finishing - burnish or polish edge, or leave as is.


Are there any other resources that describe or write about finishing which I should take a look at?

I've ordered Fiebing Dura Edge, which supposedly doesn't require any edge preparation or finishing, but sounds like you are stuck with either black or brown. I cannot get the edge dyes in California, so I ordered some of the LEATHERCOLORS to try out as edge dyes. I also ordered Resolene for polishing the edges and upper surfaces.

Nick,

What type of edge are you finishing? Is it a shoe sole?

Good question.

I will be finishing upper edges first, but the soles will follow soon after, so both?

I don't have a finishing machine, so everything is by hand.

Either way, I am trying to sort out some basic workflow steps (that are not necessarily tied to specific ingredients)and tools (like a bone stick), that will allow me to affect color and texture of an edge.

I read a mixture of 3 parts edge dye and 1 part gum arabic as one example for finishing an upper edge.

Nick,
here's is the way I do my edges.

1, I trim it as I like it to be with the edge cutter. If uneven I use a piece of glass to level out. If you don't have an edge cutter trim the edges with a knife the way you like it and use the glass to create a concave surface which will fit the iron you are using.

2, I use a 80 grit sandpaper which I fold like a tube and go all over the edges. When bevel waist I use the paper unfolded in the waist

3, next step is to use an 120 grit paper and do as abowe. During the sandpapering the edges must be damp a little

4, Then I heat up the edge iron, not to much just abit above luke warm, and then I press the edges to get the form I like.

5, Next is to rub up the gloss created by the iron with the 120 paper and thenn put the ink on. I have been using the old English stuff for years but it is difficult to find so I use a modern ink made in Germany. It is kind of plastic but it works fine because next step is to heat up the iron and put wax on.

6, Finally fold a piece of cloth in your palm and rub away all surplus wax and by doing this the edges should end up nice and glossy.

Hope this helps

Janne

For the edges of upper components I either skive and fold the edges, gimp them or leave them raw.

Skiving is thinning the edges with a blade so they will fold with ease and without to much bulk.

Gimping makes a serrated edge. This is done with a sewing machine fitted with a triangle blade.

folded (top edge) gimped (middle}


fold from the back


raw

Not a great finisher myself,but i ink raw upper edges and rub them with cloth to get rid of the access ink and to give the edge a shine and better blending,before inking a raw edge i use a Bic lighter carefully and from the flesh side to burn the leather fibers left on the edge without burning the leather itself.

Nasser

Here is a great resource for making ends (aglets) on shoelaces: http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/agletrepair.htm

On page 169 of HMSFM, a "strongly colored yellow dressing" is applied to the welt of a double-stitched shoe.

Does anyone know what this dressing product might be or a suitable substitute?

Does anyone iron uppers? I keep running across this technique in videos and books, etc., but no one goes into the details.

Are the uppers moist when ironing takes place?

Is there any way to determine or gauge the temperature of the iron?

Are conditioners applied before or after ironing?

Any cautions, advice or insights would be appreciated...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW, I sometimes use a heel iron to treat the upper. When you spit on it it shouldn't sizzle but close. On some leather a piece of cloth damp or dry could be used to keep the upper from being glazed. But mostly I use open fire or a heat gun to get rid of for example the small wrinkles when you have turned the vamp back during finnishing the toe puff. Not all but many leather respond to the heat and the wrinkles disappear.

Janne,

Thank you. That's very helpful.

Is veg tan better for this technique than chrome?

I have tried this on several occasions, with no noticeable result. Perhaps my iron was too cool. I worry about burning the leather esp. on veg tans.

But I know that there's even a special electric iron for doing this...so it must work well enough for someone to have gone to all that trouble to invent one.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,
my experience is that this method work best on trad chrome box calf.
In my fathers shoefactory they had a heat gun that worked with water so it was hot steam that hit the leather

DW,
not only removing wrinkles is the idea of ironing, also to "close" the grain, so to get a more shinny look and smoother feel. In Italian factories they are ironing everything, from cow to sheep and usually Meltonian will be applied before ironing to prevent the finish of the leather. For bespoke it's not advisable, because it looks certainly nice on the last, but after delasting your result shows that you may have used to much heat and in this case the finish brakes and loosing up and your work is gone. In an old article of DW I noticed that you're using some finish products from US - I forgot the name, but I use them sometimes on burnish leathers as well, after applying the sealer you can try to use an iron, it gives an extraordinary shine. If this look is required, you can certainly give it a trial.
Andre

I have occasionally used a shrinking iron on the uppers, but only in an emergency, and I sometimes regret it--using the exact correct technique (which I obviously don't know fully), is important. I think this is a factory method, of less value to us except in rare cases.

Janne, Andre, Dan,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Andre, the finish I sometimes use on boots is acrylic based...much like the clear topcoat that many leathers come to the cutting table with. I have never tried to iron it. It never occurred to me.

Janne, Oh, that may explain my poor results then. For some reason I thought vegetable tanned leathers might be more responsive to moderate heat considering they are more vulnerable to high heat.

Dan, well, you're correct. I've never seen the technique describe in the literature regarding hand work. But I've seen it in connection with high-end factory work. "High-end" being the operative word there. But especially when it comes to finishing (style over substance) I sometime think the factories have the clear advantage. So I tend to keep my eyes peeled for tricks that can be applied. For better or for worse, that "look"...it's what the customer wants.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,
you are welcome.
In the shop I was apprentice they heated up a heel iron and ironed the lasted heel to get straight edges. If I remeber right I have posted a photo of it somewhere here.
I am using a moderate amount of heat on probably most of my shoes. If nothing else as diescibed above but also pretty often after lasting the toe cap. Of course, you can burn it to much but if you get to know how a leather respond to heat it is a pretty safe operation

DW,
you should never iron on top coats. If you like to give it a trial, you apply either some waxed based cream like Meltonian or Kiwi, light coat, than iron and brush and than you can apply your top coat. The heat is the crucial part, if the temperature is too low you can't move your iron over the wax, it's get stuck and can damage the leather finish, if it's too hot you might burn the finish. To avoid this headache, stick a piece of teflon tape over the iron, this pretends the leather from damaging, even with low temperature you can iron smoothly now.
I like to mention, that the process for iron is only one part of the finishing. The other is heat blowing. Usually you first blow hot air to remove the light wrinkles and opening the grain of the leather, now you fill with cream or sealer along with some dye or without and iron the leather to close the grain again. Finally you go for your top coat. I don't know any better way, if you like get a two tone effect or some kind of vintage look, except you can buy the leather as you want from your tannery.
The whole process of finishing, inclusive heat apply is more than removing wrinkles, that's only a correction and not finishing. And finally brushing and burnishing with different waxes is another very important part of it.
For example as a bootmaker for sure the color brown is very important to you and there are many interesting shades. So what you could do is, you get some basic color crust add water solvent dye in your process and you're on.
It's really not rocket science and if you feel you like to add something new or different to your boots you should might give it a shoot.
Believe me factories doesn't have an edge, but there are usually under pressure to make always something new and that's why their are keen on trying the latest finished products and techniques to get the "new" look. Anybody can do the same, for sure.

I was just reading some old post above, where was the talk about Berlutti or other companies finishes and I like to add to my previous post, that I'm not saying copying a special finish or working with old great techniques and Kiwi cream getting a new vintage look is easy, of course that would be rocket science, I simply wanted to say, with some basic techniques plus the right finishing products, for that heat apply is essential, to achieve a new finish look for your products is not difficult, hope nobody understood it wrong.

When making cowboy boots, I glue the lining to the leg panels as DW describes in his book. When I turn the boot right side out, I get these wrinkles, as shown.



This would seem to be the natural result of stressing the laminated lining and outer leather during the turning process. Treeing the boots only makes a small improvement.

It doesn't really look all that bad but it seem like an unintentional artifact that I'm pretty sure would not be there if the panels were not so thoroughly glued together. (I used rubber cement).

Is this something that can be prevented?

oops, wrong image

Rick,

In my experience, it only happens with certain leathers...most notably glazed buffalo.

To deal with it, during treeing and while the leather is still wet/damp, I bone the wrinkles out using Lexol or R.M Williams or Bick4 as a lubricant.

My trees are pretty simplistic, but if I were using some sort of solid tree...more on the order of those $600.00+ trees Janne mentioned some time ago...I believe I could bone every wrinkle out. As it is I get most of them.

YMMV

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Just some suggestions:

1. don't use rubber cement when glueing lining
2. put some top stitching on that rascal
3. wet the uppers pretty good before turning

my 2 cents worth

One more.....be careful of getting too close to the belly.