The Crispin Colloquy

Wondering if anyone can help me identify the component materials in the following pictures of worn out dance shoes. I realize that some of these materials probably will not meet with the approval of many of the bespoke makers here, and so apologize for any offense, however I think they may be suitable for my personal projects as I've never yet had to discontinue using a commercially made ballroom shoe for any reason other than ultimate failure of the leather upper. So I'm interested in any suggestions as to their identity, and sources - and especially any availability or substitutes from generic rather than specialized sources.


Materials 1, 2, and 3 found in the most comfortable pair of shoes I own.

1. Some kind of partially molded foam backed fabric insole, almost looks like something that would be available as an aftermarket insert.

2. What looks like a thin, flexible version of "particle board" that's taking the heel nails. Looks cheap, but seems to hold up.

3. Some kind of reddish generic rubber pad continuing under the ball of foot.


4. Some kind of fairly stiff "polymer cardboard" in this case used under what appears to be an 80 mill veg-tanned insole. Continues about an inch forward of the heel as a sort of half-shank.

Primarily, I'm trying to figure out what I can use inside the shoe to attach the heel to - ie, something like material #2 or #4.

I know that purist might opt for stiffened veg tanned leather for these uses, but all of these dance shoes seem to have some synthetic components to the insole "stack". What I've observed in comparing the shoes with 2oz leather heel counters to the ones with thermal celastic is that the soak-with-sweat then dry usage pattern seems to cause the leather ones to dry out and crack requiring repair efforts to get the last month of life out of the uppers, while the synthetic ones survive beyond the point where trying to sew up the upper tears becomes pointless.

(Message edited by ccs on January 30, 2011)

Chris,

Check out http://www.lynflex.com/

You will probably find all these items there.

Hi everybody, I am looking for a manufacturer of horsehair rotary brushes for an Auto Soler Jackmaster finisher. I know where to get them but man are they expensive. I was just wondering if I could save a few dollars and purchase direct from the manufacturer. Any help is greatly appreciated.

what sources in the us are there that I can get some leather for the insole and outsole. I've seen the term sole bends. wasn't sure about that. thanks mark

Mark,

Warkov-Safeer
1-800-665-8619
Email: sales@warkov.com
in Canada

Insole shoulder and Belgium pit tanned outsole

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Dee-Dubb,

You've always used a zinc-coated tack from Gurney when lasting (3 oz....most of the time). With all the shoes being made on the forum, I've noticed they always use, what looks like, a common finishing nail. Is it a finishing nail? What about using it with damp leather? Where to buy?

As always, your time is very much appreciated.

Jake:

If it's of any help, the guys in the UK seem to use (at least one or two I watched did....) 'cone headed' nails in 20 and 25mm lengths. I think they are available from Algeos. They seem like steel (not stainless though), and are similar in diameter to #18 brads. I use the latter, but the zinc brads seem a bit more likely to bend than the cone-headed nails. I have also used steel and even stainless steel brads -- I prefer the latter, as they seem harder/less likely to bend, but I haven't seen them in #18, just #17, in 1 inch and up lengths (at least at Home Depot). And, the stainless are more expensive.

Lance

Hey Lance,

Hope all is well. By the way, good job on those shoes you posted. Job well done!

Thanks for the info. I appreciate it. Think I'll give'em a try.

Jake,

I am not sure those lasting tacks from Gurney are zinc coated...might be, I just never asked.

Since that time I have moved on a little ...I use 5 ounce lasting tacks from Gurney as much or more than the 3 ounce and I use inch and a quarter wire brads in 17 or 18 gauge almost as much as lasting tacks. I'd prefer the 18 gauge but they do seem to bend more often than I like. Both are available at hardware stores but I bought pound packages direct from a wholesaler sometime back.

Call me...I don't have the source handy.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I've done a lot of google searching to try and find web sites of people or companies that make a certain kind of handmade shoe. I've collected several sites but today I was pointed to a site that I had never found. Now I'm wondering if there are others. I don't know what terms to use to get what I'm looking for and avoid all the commercial shoe web sites.

A CD I recently acquired describes these shoes as "turned moccasin boots with button closures similar to what might be worn at renaissance fairs and buck skinner rendezvous". Another style can be found at the Healthy Handmade Shoes website or at Coolmocs.com in the sub-category there called coolshoes.

Can anyone point me either to some sites I may not have found easily or to some search terms that might help me find more sites like this? I enjoy getting inspired or admiring their handiwork.

Lance,

Found them.....even in zinc plated! Thanks!

Diane,

here ?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Lance, the nails bend easier when they're galvinised (zinced too I think) because they are heated and that softens the steel.

If you get a plain 4" flat head wire nail and drive it into a piece of 4x2 they go in good but if the nail is galvinised it'll often bend because it's softer - especially if the woods a bit harder.

More power to y'awl
Tom.

Tom:

Thanks. I don't like that soft metal, particularly with the harder rock maple lasts. With softer lasts it's not quite so bad, but I still prefer the harder brads.

Of course, on the topic of corrosion and leather, the galvanizing (which apparently is the addition of zinc to steel) renders the brads pretty corrosion resistant. However, I don't know how zinc interacts with leather. I think going forward I am going to use stainless if/when I need to use nails in the heel stack.

Lance

Lance, Tom, Jake, all...

Brash as I am, I have to ask..."why do you think you need nails (of any kind) in the stack?"

For near-as-nevermind 40 years I have built heel stacks to 2-1/4 inches with no nails whatsoever...just pegs.

There's a lot of leverage on a 2-1/4 heel just by virtue of the height alone but when a cowboy is on the ground with a horse on a long lead, his heels are about all he's got to keep from being pulled off his feet.

My heels been ridden hard and put up wet by all kinds of people in all kinds of circumstances. As far as I know, never once has a heel come off a pair of my boots.

Just sayin'...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Dee-Dubb,

Same here Partner! No "nails" in my heels!
As far as I know, not one lost. And by the way, fairly hard to remove upon resoling.

Jake,

I know it. It was a rhetorical question meant for everyone following this discussion.

Far as I can tell the only reason to use nails in the stack is if you are going to rely on a pre-built stack...which are made of crappy leather and will never fit the heelseat perfectly, anyway...and that doesn't work for me. Techically, ethically or financially.

However mileage may vary, I guess.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Diane

I got quite a few with "renaissance faire moccasins" as a google search. Or you can draw out some fancy ones with using a lot of the same themes as fancy cowboy boots.

Good luck finding what you want, a lot of sketching out things really helps.

Paul

Hey,
2 posts in a row.

I am looking for some thread to do a decorative stitch and am looking for a silver, shiny thread that would run thru my machine set up for #46 nylon.

Does anyone know where I could find such a thread as that?

Thanks

Paul

Paul,
The only true silver metallic thread I've ever found consists of a thread core with something like tinsel wrapped around it. I worked for a bootmaker once who tried stitching a pair of tops with it. It was absolutely horrible to stitch with but I nursed it along and got the job accomplished. Then when he turned the boots all of the tinsel broke and there were little bits of tinsel sticking out everywhere. He had to throw the boots away and start over.

In normal topstitching nylon thread there's nothing other than gray. If you go to a fabric store you could probably find gray in rayon and it has a really nice sheen to it. I know a bootmaker who's using that for stitching tops but I don't like it simply because it's a smaller diameter than size 33. It doesn't show up well because it's so fine. It's a shame because it comes in lots of colors.

Lisa

The metallic thread Lisa describes is intended for hand embroidery in fabric, and even then it is usually only used in short lengths because the constant drawing through the fabric will damage the foil wrapped around the thread.

You could probably do small bits of work with it in leather with a very small awl and a lot of patience but it really isn't designed for machines.

Thanks for the info on that and the help in avoiding disaster.

I am trying to figure out what thread to use for stitching a high contrast celtic knot design on a black boot.

Maybe I'll just use a light grey nylon and it will work out. Not as reflective as metalic, but functional. The thought on high contrast is that the shape is complicated and would be nice to show up with less rows.

Paul

Thanks for the link, DW. I'm a little afraid since a whole category is under the heading "Porn".

I'm sure I've seen all the pages under "renaissance fair moccasins"!

What would you call these wild and crazy shoes in a generic term you could search for?
http://thoseshoes.com/

I'm looking for a source for crepe soles for moccasin-type shoes. Any suggestions for a supplier in the US, preferably in the north east? Thanks.

I think you can order it from sharon raymond simple shoemaking. Or from shriener co. I called southern leather in denver and they had it in 1/4" I think.
I think if you do a search for plantation crepe on here you might find contact info.

Courtney