The Crispin Colloquy

How very odd, to me they look like a 1470s toe grafted onto a 1970s shoe.

I was just being silly, and refering to the toes going left, as do the cars on a NASCAR track.

I actually applaud the innovation.

I'm sure there is much to learn by "playing in the field of possibilities".

The other pair are certainly also, and I agree about wishing to see the lasts.

Paul

Making the Three Piece Boot known as the Triad

I asked around and the best I got was, "you just hold the vamp up there and decide where you want to cut and go from there". And in fact, if I were only ever going to make just one, or if I were isolated, and not committed to our network of makers of all levels and from all around the world, that would be enough. I get it. It's not that fundamentally different than what we do in a 4 piece. Essentially, it's just some longer cut lines. However, it would not satisfy me to go that route. I want to have a "how I".

Maybe there's some silent subconscious agreement to not talk much about them.
"Just figure it out for yourself."
In my grandiose thinking, I've wondered if being able to make one is an indication of how far you've come in the trade. You sure don't see many of them, do you? I know we all linger over pictures of them in the collectors books. And being able to figure these kinds of things out for oneself is indeed a kind of measure of ones understanding of the fundamentals of pattern making and how parts go together to make a boot that fits.

So I've been chewin' on it.
It didn't seem too much different than the patterning approach that I'd used serval times already on ladies zipper boots.


The pattern making process from the textbook Step by Step The Pattern Cutters Handbook (TPCH) by Michael Sharp and edited by our own beloved Frank Jones (and available from him), and that which is described in George Koleff's Shoe and Boot Designing Manuel, were the premise from which I began. Both of these sources had their influence on my designing and patterning choices.

But primarily I followed the path illuminated by DW Frommer. This is especially in view of the fact that the pattern for the back panel is for all intents and purposes, the same as for a full cut boot. And that means mostly I thought, "how would DW do it?"

So the learning began with the front panel.
I used a legal size manila folder for my panel patterns.


I began with a mark on the fold that was 10" (+ 2" which is 12" the completed height of my boots) plus another 1 1/2" or so. I laid out my front panel top pattern using the same method I do for my 4pc. boots and made a small notch mark at the throat line.
(Actually, since I had made 4 pc. boots for this customer before,
I just used his old front panel for the go-by and extended from there.)


This extension utilized the patterning technique taught by DW for the Full Wellington, to control the heel height using a side draft. DW has outlined this in his full cut tutorial, Boot Makers Choice. I'd urge you to get this to add to your library if you want to make differnt styles.

(Message edited by paul on December 22, 2009)

I established a seam allowance for the vamp, taking care to create the bell which would saddle the cone of the last.


(For this customer, with his very wide instep, I probably should have allowed more width here.)

But this line gave me the "bell" portion of my tongue template. I could come no further forward and stay on the fold. So that front panel has a straight line center with just a bit cut out for that "saddle" at the High Instep point where the bell lays over the top of the last, and a little bit of a design curve below it.


In an earlier conversation with DW, he postulated that maybe the vamp could come a bit further forward by adding some additional to the side seam by pivoting at the throat line notch mark. That would be worth looking at, I think. I did worry a little bit about the seam being too close to the "base of the fifth" and causing irritation. And it is pretty close.
Maybe one could get another 3/8" to a 1/2" further away from that potentially sensitive area. (see below)



(Message edited by paul on December 22, 2009)

(Message edited by paul on December 22, 2009)

OK, so I made the tongue template allowing the traditional 5/8" allowance. And here it is layed over my already crimped vamp.


I also made a blocker pattern and crimp board, that I ultimately used for the finished boots, but I only show this here now.
Here is the vamp with the tongue cut out.

Here's the front panel with the outline of the vamp tongue,

And here the vamp is installed and ready to stitch.

The break may be a little bit lower than desired on this test. The template is what I use for the full cut panel layout.

And that's the essence of it. I just went forward from here as I have for a full cut, and really no different than one would for a 4pc. boot. The notches at the side seam set up my control over the throat line.

I'd want to make another pair to really judge my success. But the finished pair was very well received all the way around by the customer.


So that's how I did it. I hope some of this will feed your own creativity, and test your own pattern making skills. I also hope you'll share your efforts for the benifit of all as well.

With Regards,
Paul

Paul,

Thank you for that tutorial!

If this software would allow "stickies" I would make this series of posts permanently available. We do these kinds of "how to's" to archive knowledge for others...for posterity. So that it is not lost. So folks don't have to encounter that "just figure it out for yourself" mentality.

Anyway...that's pretty much how I do it, too. Although I've never done anything quite as spectacular with it...I just don't get orders for triads much in this part of the country.

But you mentioned a separate "blocker pattern and crimp board"...I would like to see those. I think they might be a critical element in understanding this process. I know that I can cut my triad vamps from a fully crimped dress wellington vamp if I need to but I'd rather not.

Ultimately, one of the attractions here is to use scraps of say, alligator, that are not large enough for a full vamp. It not only gets the best mileage out of the alligator it ratchets up the profit on a skin because you can charge for another pair of alligator boots even though there isn't enough alligator left for a standard dress wellington.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by paul on December 22, 2009)

(Message edited by paul on December 22, 2009)

DW,

Here is what I worked with. It could probably use some refinement.

Crimp board pattern. As you can see I changed the angle of the notch to reflect my observations below.

Even this process is a spinoff of your boards. I figured the fold of the front panel was my base and so I moved it forward to be under the break just below the front of the board. I moved the screw notch forward so as to pull from under the break at the front line of the board.

The liner shows how it covers the notch

The blocker for the vamp is not considerably smaller, but it could make a difference snuggeling up a to a border.

I recognized the center line fold is the limitation for the forward line of the vamp, as you were trying to tell me previously, so my vamp pattern is stopped here. To go foward any further would require swingingng the side seam forward at the throat notch, as you suggested. I think with as cooperative as some leather can be to gathering a bit when lasting, one could add a bit to the side seam by some fraction of an inch.

Lastly, here is the cut vamp overlaying the crimped liner.

More questions welcome,
Paul

Please excuse the editing.

It was a long night. The longest, as a matter of fact.

Peace,
Paul

Does anyone have a pattern or a standard for jodhpurs?

Hints, tips thoughts?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I really think you cannot find a better expert in this topic than our great collague - Mr. Janne Melkersson.

If you have a picture, a drawing or any thing two dimensional of the jodhpurs you intend to know about with size,i might be able to offer some suggestions on how you might be able to make your own pattern for this boots,knowing how well you do your tongues,you will do this short boots well,i looked up some of Lobb's samples,a good veg tan leather will go a long way here for this style of boots,but i am sure you can block other leather well.

Nasser

Nasser, Marcel,

What I'm looking for is a "standard,"as much as anything--proportions and locations of various components relative to points on the last, etc..

I know many makers don't use a standard but I like them especially for over the ankle boots. They suit my particular sense of logic and order.

I figured I would have to block the fronts. That's not a problem even if I have to make a specialized crimp board. I suppose I can work my way through it but it would sure help to have some place to start and some sense of direction.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,
I collect images of examples of various styles. I don't know the origins of this oneor I would credit the source. It could be Lobb although it is not on their website now.
Think this one also shows the brass oblong eyelet Al Saguto was looking for recently.
Georgene

And one more

Georgene,

Thanks for the photos. I also have several that I can reference. I have an old Lobbs catalog and like the looks and the cut of the ones depicted there. But as good as photos can be, they leave me a little short. I want a formula for determining proportions...my mind works like that. I guess that's why I've never considered myself an artist...I don't often break free of those kinds of empirical rules.

I always thought that the real missing link--the hole in our base of knowledge--is the dearth of standards. Of all the styles of shoe that can be made the number of styles that are actually lined out is tragically small. I worked my way through a saddle shoe...I had to because there was/is no standard for setting it up. Sure it's just an oxford with the saddle on top of the vamp and quarters...and because of that, maybe even easier to do than a standard oxford...but there are some questions/issues that could definately use answering and some that don't have to be left to design or "artistic license." In my case, read "trial and error."

And so it goes...once you lay out a standard for a pair of shoes according to someone like Patrick or Thornton...or with Frank Jones' excellent book...it becomes easier to see how the patterns work together and how they can be altered without throwing off the balance or, say, introducing constrictions that make things awkward.

But none of those books goes far enough, as far as I'm concerned. I'm looking for The Big Book of Shoe Standards

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

Standards are made/prepared for the intend to mass produce and these standards/designs are carefully selected based on machinery and above all economy,how big the shoe/boot parts are highly considered,so the reasons why the jodhpurs never made it to be standard or mass produced or for a short time may have to do with economy,a big front piece and has to be blocked.I think The boot is from/similar to the Derby design/family.
When my boot last is free next week and there is time,i will make a pair. oh yeah finding good buckles might be an issue.

Nasser

Agreed, finding good buckles has become an issue. I can't lay my hands on a solid buckle it seems.