Pattern making

[dw]

Rick,

I assume with your reference to "soak(ing) overnight" you're responding to my post above.

But I have no experience with this technique...I'd like to know the answer to the same question you asked. I don't know we're gonna get an answer, however. I guess mum's the word.

Speculating...I would think that one would want to secure the toe and heel--three drafts at each end--and then go back and start moving pipes and surplus army goods. Again...ignorance speaking.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on October 13, 2009)

[dw]

Well, what a difference a few hours can make! Inspired by Rolf's photos last night, I prepared a piece of GN burnishable water buffalo to give this technique a try. Bear in mind that I am not trained as a shoemaker and some of my techniques differ from what is standard in other parts of the world.

GN burnishable buffalo is a fairly firm leather...the closest thing to crust that I have access to...and is fairly rough in texture. It is a veg-chrome retan. I wet it in warm water last night and let it soak overnight. I ran very warm water over it before I began.

10208.jpg

I began by tacking the heel dead center. Then I pulled the toe over...taut but not real tight. I tacked it dead center, then on either side of the toe to prevent twisting. I went back and put in two tacks on either side of the center heel tack, working up some moderate pipes in-between. Then I took a forward pulling draft at the medial and then the lateral joint. I was trying to move as much surplus out of the heel and waist area as I could. From there, I began to work around the heel a little ways, building in pipes but trying to keep them moderate. Then switched to back to the waist and drafted the medial arch pretty tight...again pulling leather away from the heel. After that it was just a matter of going back and working the pipes down and over the edge of the insole.

I alluded to the fact that I am trained as a bootmaker. I have never had anyone show me how to last in my lap and I find it exceedingly clumsy. So I "cheated"--I cut a hole in the leather over the thimble and put the last on my lapjack. This gave me the kind of leverage that I am comfortable with. I am sure that I will have to do penance, somewhere down the line, however. So be it.

10209.jpg

10210.jpg

10211.jpg

I would never claim to be an expert on this technique, but this is one way to do it. I have a new source of beautiful veg calf from Waterhouse Leather (tell Peter I sent you) that I think I will use to make a pair of these when I get my new last. It is a much smoother leather and I believe it will work even better than the burnishable buffalo.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by admin on October 13, 2009)

[dearbone]

Here is another one.



Nasser

(Message edited by admin on October 13, 2009)

[dearbone]

10215.jpg

[marcell]

It seems I started something.. Should we make a seamless wholecut championship?

Nice work guys!

[dw]

Nasser,

Would you be so kind as to outline your sequence, and tell us what leather you used? For those who are following this thread...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

I think you and Marcell covered it all,hence i didn't see the need to give mine,but i approached it as i do with shoes in a way,tacked the center back and front than tacked the sides and once i secured the front and the middle,i went back to the seat and more or less like you described,taking down the pipes one at a time until there were none,just like lasting on a regular shoe seat.
The leather is 3 oz or more veg tan calf, soaked for the short time of 1 hour in warm water,to leave it soaking over-night will make much easier to last.

Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

Thanks. I was just hoping that we could all sort of compare notes on this technique. That's what the CC is about, surely?

For instance, I am happy to know that you do it pretty much the way I do it.

Let me ask you this...would you make a pair of shoes from the leather you used?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

I am with you,that we are here to compare notes and techniques and God knows i kept to it on this forum.
"Would you make a pair of shoes from the leather you used." well that's a hard question, i personally don't like that style of shoe and not to offend anyone,but if i will make one it will be a veg tan leather shoe and of course i will use my calf veg tan first, this veg calf is old collection i recently bought,but whether i make a pair or not, we will see.

Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

I am with you,that we are here to compare notes and techniques and God knows i kept to it on this forum.

Yes, and if it won't embarrass you too much I'd say that from my point of view, you are one of the most consistent and generous contributors on the forum.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

I am not good at this kind of talk,but thank you and i will add this,My contribution is a drop in the bucket in comparison to yours and i am grateful for that,thank you.

Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

Pish-posh. Give credit where credit is due is my motto (that and "sleep neat" ).

In fact, one of the elder statesmen of the forum reminded me that you were the one who first mentioned this form of shoe...this technique of making a seamless whole cut oxford. Roughly a year ago was it? I vaguely remember....

Same fellow also pointed out that the real question still needs to be asked (among others)...how did you cut your pattern? Tight to toe or some other way? And what part of the hide did you cut the pattern from?

Sharing notes...I cut mine tight to toe figuring that I wanted the leather to stretch toward the insole. I'm not sure if that's the right idea or not. I also cut...for this first trial...along the margins of the hide. More for reasons that I didn't want to waste good leather if I couldn't bring it off. But I suspect that cutting from less prime leather might be a little counter-productive...might introduce problems that wouldn't be there with a better quality piece.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[homeboy]

Very Impressive Fellers!

One question though, soak the leather all night? Do you mean sitting in water? How wet is.....wet?

Years ago, I watched (via video tape) an Ecuadorian bootmaker soak some leather overnight to crimp for a full-cut. I believe he was using a waxed calf of some sort. But I always thought that soaking for no more than one hour and letting the leather "mull" overnight was more than enough.

Any comments?

[dw]

Jake!!

Good to hear from you. I guess yer recovered from being associated with the "ladies from hell," last year.

Over the years, I've come to agree with you 100%...how wet is wet? I was mighty tempted to start lasting late the previous day but the only real instructions I had to draw on was the advice from Rolf Holzapfel's closer. According to Rolf he soaked his overnight. And even if Rolf's shoes aren't completely finished they are the closest to being done I've seen in a seamless wholecut. So, I figured "better safe than sorry." Better to be too wet than not wet enough.

As for the "mulling" bit, I think you are correct especially if you're not going to soak them for any length of time. But depending on the "pick-up" of the leather, my experience is that sometimes the leather is still not pliable enough to block a full cut, for instance. I mean if the leather has only picked up 2 ounces of water when there's room enough in the spaces between the fibers for 3 ounces, you're not gonna generate an extra ounce in the mulling bag.

All mulling does is allow the moisture to distribute itself evenly through the leather. If there isn't enough to fully loosen and lubricate the fibers, the leather can be markedly harder to block than if it is sopping wet.

Well, homey, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

I used the worst part of the hide,the neck area,i cut the pattern parallel to the spine,just like for regular shoe making,the stretch is side to side(width) and not heel to toe(length).I hope i answered your question.

Jake,

It is nice to hear from you,I hope you can join us again this year at OSV. I let DW answer your leather question.

Nasser

[homeboy]

Dee-Dubb,

Well....I guess I have some "experimenting" to do. As always, I appreciate your words, which by the way, sound plausible.

I also would like to compliment your progress towards making shoes. Looks like you're just about there! Stunning!

Nasser,

I wish I could make it this year, but I just can't. Maybe in a few years I can slow down a bit. I will sure miss the activities! You fellers and gals have a good one.

Take care!

[dw]

Jake,

I also would like to compliment your progress towards making shoes. Looks like you're just about there! Stunning!

Thanks!

But I can remember back when this forum was very new (going on 12 years now) telling Al or someone like Al that I envied his range and depth of knowledge. Going back...way back...I have always felt that to be a bootmaker in this day and age was to be a "one-trick pony."

Of course that's the way I was trained but it wasn't always so. Most of the great shoemakers in Europe called themselves Bootmakers or Bottiers but actually did it all--from fine dress calf or hobnailed hiking boots to lounging slippers. And most of the old books which get into patternmaking focus on making boots (pull-on boots) almost as intently as shoes.

I don't suppose, at my age, a feller can do it all. But I'm going to continue to learn and add to my skills and repertoire. Being a shoemaker makes me a better bootmaker. And remember what I told you last year at AGM-- "we don't quit playing because we get old, we get old because we quit playing."

More importantly, from my perspective...and knowing what I know both in terms of techniques and history...being a shoemaker makes me worthy of calling myself a bootmaker.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by admin on October 16, 2009)

[paul]

This may be better for a different thread, but I feel inspired to jump in here.

DW, it's not surprising to me that I agree with you.

As a fellow who refuses to be old, and who enjoys palying too, I love it all. I don't want to be a "one trick pony" any more than I want to be ridden. But I cast a wide loop on the "remuda" for my enjoyment.

Knowing pattern making in leather craft has become almost second nature, now that I'm adding my studies of pattern making footwear. Right now, there's a cape buffalo skin on my shelf to make a rifle scabbard for the fellow who shot it. It'll be a challenge, but the idea of the joy of completion and delivery makes it worth
it. I'm hoping to finish a Chelsea boot before the AGM, that's been a challenge too.
And I'm also enjoying myself, dabbling in tooling Victorian Ornamental in orignial design leather goods. Where will it stop?!

I've talked alot about my origins in shoe repair, but it was there that my love of the "various" was nurtured. I saw so many different things relating to leather go across my bench, and I have a connection to it all.

I feel it makes me a better service person to be familiar with making many different things. I'm sure those "Bootiers" felt similar. And that is where my joy comes from, using my skills with leather to be of service to others.

So, lead on brother.
Paul

[dearbone]

To All,

I have a question and it is from the book,HMSFM,page 72 the buttons boots,the question is about the piping in the center, where the flap is sewn,how is it done? I usually sew this kind of seam,flesh to flesh,but on this picture,i am a little puzzled, i have an order for one and i have my own way of going about it,but i thought i will ask before i proceed,any suggestion is appreciated.

Nasser

[dearbone]

Sorry about this,but a correction has to be make, the seam on the flap i usually sew grain to grain and not flesh to flesh as i wrote above.

Nasser

[paul]

Nasser,

To me it looks like a piping/welt sewn between the flesh sides together, in this photo.

I'd love to watch you make these.

Paul

[tjburr]

Nasser,

I would agree with Paul, but I think it might be home made piping. Looking at the picture it looks like the piping might have some areas it looks flat.

The upper appears to be made out of a wool, and in my experience using boughten piping for wool does not have the look like it might be flat in a few points.

Terry

[dearbone]

Paul, Terry, OK, the subject of discussion here is sewing of the flap and the quarter in the center,I know how the piping is done on top of boot,but sewing the center seam flesh sides together with piping in between will leave a protruded edge,it almost makes sense sewing the two pieces grain to grain and piping in between,but i don't think that's the is done in page 72 of HMSFM. the quarters are suede i think and not wool.

Nasser

[dw]

If no one minds I think I'll weigh in here with another 2¢...

I am not sure that sandwiching the piping in-between the pieces will necessarily leave a protruding edge. I think it depends upon how finely it is done.

If you assume that the quarters are suede, or at least fleshside out (and I agree with that); and you further assume that the quarters are of a relatively lightweight substance, then if the piping is sewn between the pieces very evenly and close to the folded edge of the piping and then the quarter/flap is closely trimmed and flattened or boned, I think you would end up with something very similar to what is seen in the photo on page 72. Especially after the quarters have been lined and the shoe lasted.

Careful examination of the photo suggests that the bead (can we call it a bead even if we are not sure how it is done?) may not be perfectly even. This may be due to human error or more likely the fact that it's flattened more over the cone of the last than above...which we might reasonably expect...and flattened again at the top bead--which is actually a kind of binding rather than the type of bead/piping you see on cowboy boots.

Taken altogether, these little clues suggest to me that it really is a form of piping and a fairly straight-forward and simple concept. It just needs to be done in a very deliberate and meticulous manner.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on October 18, 2009)

[dearbone]

Thank you for your suggestions, as i said earlier i have my way of going about it,but i was not sure until i put the theory to practice today and here is a picture.full disclosure will be given at the AGM to those interested.

10248.jpg

Nasser