The Crispin Colloquy

Ps.

All the "glues" mentioned in the previous posts are water based--rye flour, dextrine, potato starch...even HirschKleber (which I think is hide glue). But that said, they've been used for centuries in just the applications you're asking about.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Another press cement source! Thank-you to the person who e-mailed me privately, tipping me off to Panhandle Leather, 800-537-3945. They sell press cement (nitrocellulose) in quarts for $14.50, plus shipping. There is no hazardous materials fee because of the small amount. I ordered a quart and will experiment with both that and the Dextrine I already received.

They also sell some shoemaking (in addition, of course, to bootmaking, etc.) leathers... calfskin and also kangaroo. They are sending me some swatches.

Jenny

I have these awls from back home (Netherlands) and like to find some more. Does anyone know what name they go by, I know them as “haakels” or “sleepels” (that's their Dutch name). describing the items to various people I've been told that there's no such thing used by US shoemakers. The closest would be a McKay needle but as you can see this one is thinner and longer. The awl itself is about 4 inches (10 cm) long. On the second picture the shadow shows the tip and the hook nicely.

Rob

Rob,

Your needles remind me of Union Lock Stitch needles. A #1 is this thinnest, the 1.5mm diameter shaft, is about 38mm long.

That's as close to it as I've ever seen. Weaver sells them.

Pk

Thanks Paul,

Do you know if they sell anything longer than 38mm. This lenght is great to hand sew a McKay type stitch by hand, it allows you to get around the toe.

I'm looking at their website and can't even find the lock stitch needles. I'll give them a call next week.

Rob

Rob,
Don't know of any longer. There is about a half inch of thicker shaft as it goes into the haft though. (I'm sure there's a name for that "thicker" part.)
PK

Rob and paul

I used to use a shorter version as a cobbler. From what Paul wrote we use them the same way. I have some mcKay needles that I figure on using if the need shows it's self. My first master used something that looked like a sharpening guide for a swivel knife as a handle. It worked great. I have not jabbed one into my hand yet.

CW

Jenny and DW

That little twist DW wrote about can help and really mess things up. I can imagine that DW would also say that you will have to learn how much to pull and when to stop.

Sometimes I grap the upper past the pinning margin, But would not recommmend you do it until you have a feel for the skin. Some snap with out any warning.

CW

A while ago we were discussing triming the ends of thread, so just a quick 'heads up' about a tool that Proleptic have advertised in the latest issue of Shoptalk.

It's the Pro-Thermal Pen, and looks like a marker only it has a tip that heats up when you kick it in the guts.

It's been designed to heat cut the thread real close to the work. there are two models, one is desposable, the other has replacable batteries. It might be worth a look at.
At this stage I can't see it on their site, only in Shoptalk.

More power to y'awl.
T

Tom,

Interesting. I don't get ShopTalk. Wish I could see a pic.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

Your wish is granted.
I covered the price. (Not sure about the legaities and all.)

PK

That was seriously quick off the mark Mr Krause.
More power to y'awl
T.

Thanks Paul,

You know, I have a RazorTip wood burning pen that looks just like that. 'Course it's not disposable and it does have a cord but I bet it would work just dandy. I think I'll give it a go.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I was just warmin' up Tom.

Actually it took a few to find it. The April issue appeared on the pile before the May issue, and I spent awhile looking in an issue that didn't have the ad. Must be a new item for them.

Think I'll try one myown self.

Thanks for the lead.

Beiler'sManufacturing & Supply seems to be selling the same thing with 3 different tips plus the pen,717-768-0174.
Not affiliated with company.

Ed

Robert: "I have these awls from back home (Netherlands) and like to find some more. Does anyone know what name they go by, I know them as “haakels” or “sleepels”"

Did you ever find these? On my travels I came across the
Do-It Tooly Patent Needle which looks something like.

Gordon

Gordon,

No I have not found them any other place domestically (US). I did find it in the on-line catalog from Minke. This company delivers really great quality products but their prices are even grander. Have not worked with them for years but may swing by there next time I'm in the neighborhood. They call it a hook needle. Art.No. 8515.00

Great find on the Do-it Tooly. The tip does not look particularly sharp so I wonder if it will work with leather. The hook needle has much more of a cutting point. Maybe the picture just does not do it justice.

Great idea to use super glue in place of bristles.

I was having difficulty keeping my bristles on

We all know what you mean even if we don't like to admit it and we all have been there at one point or another. I'm not sure you will win over everyone here but I for one will try this technique some time.

Thanks for the idea

Rob

Robert:
"Great idea to use super glue in place of bristles. "

It works to a point Robert but it might be a bit hard on the fingers for big jobs as you don't have much to get hold of. The other thing is the thick part seems to end up a bit big and of course it won't 'form' at all.

I know the hand waxed bristle method has been used successfully for centuries but I'm having a hard time accepting that there isn't a better way

Gordon

Robert,

I'm not sure what your requirements are with regard to length, etc., but I use American Straight Needle hooks chucked up in a screw haft when I want a hooked awl. Ends up looking identical to the photos you posted above, perhaps a tidge shorter in length.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Gordon,

Well, I turn a little wood, now and again and one of the "hottest" finishes in that arena at the present time is to use thin super glue (we call it CA) applied in multiple coats sanded in-between each and then buffed. Hard and glossy.

Of course that's neither here nor there, but many people develop allergies to the fumes (sometimes quite severe and in people with no other health problems)...I myself am a bit leery of the stuff--suspecting that it might contribute to heart irregularities.

If you are having problems keeping bristles on, it could be due to not using a tacky wax; it could be due to contaminents in your wax...such as too much oil; and it could be due to your technique in attaching the taw to the bristle.

I, honestly, don't have a lot of trouble with bristles anymore--losing maybe one out of 20 and that to breakage rather than slippage...virtually none due to slippage. But my technique is not for everyone and certainly not for the faint of heart.

As an alternative, you might consider a twisted wire bristle--one that you make yourself from 10, 11, or 12 guage guitar string. 10 guage will give you more flexibility, 12 guage is easier to grasp (being a little stouter) and will last longer. But the price is about $.30 for two and while not as elegant or as capable of "turning the corner" as nylon or boar's bristle, they are almost foolproof.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW

I strongly suspect the wax is part of the problem coupled with a lack of experience. I don't make my wax, it's ThermoWax as was made by Balls. It's probably fine for locking and sealing the inseam, I just see fixing the thread to the bristle being a different application with different requirements. I'd just like to find a way whereby the inexperienced can achieve the same thing with off the shelf products.

I'll agree superglue is unpleasant stuff.

I've plenty of old guitar strings I'll give it a try. However, I want to have a go at fine hand stitching (not for any good reason, just because) and 16 (2*8) thou is still thicker than the boars bristles I have (although 0.007 strings are available and possibly less).

It occurred to me that the carbon bristles used for pole floats might be useful as they're quite thin but it seems they're 1mm. The model aircraft industry uses thinner, down to 0.25mm dia Carbon rods. Might be useful.

Gordon

Gordon, (edited...sorry)

Some years back the head shoemaker at Colonial williamsburg visited me at my shop. He brought along some thermo-Wax, as I recall. He was not using it, himself, but said some of his apprentices were. (remember, this is all based on a passing remark made years and years ago and filtered through a sometimes faulty memory) But the upshot was that his apprentices like it.

Now as far as I know, they use nylon bristles...either crimped or sanded...at CW and they do a simple wrap/overwrap technique for attaching the bristle to the taw. That's a technique that *I* could never master or be satisfied with. But evidently they are.

I use split nylon bristles and do a leg wrap and counterwrap technique...as I say, I never lose a bristle to slippage.

I did lose one to breakage yesterday...right after I posted my comments above. I switch back and forth between a 30lb. nylon and a 40lb.(the 30lb is thinner and clear while the 40lb. is dk. brown) and both are usually fine when virgin. But I re-use nylon bristles constantly and some of them are on their fifth and six (maybe more) go-round. The one I lost was a 30lb'er....I don't know how old it was or how many times it had been used.

I have boar's bristles aplenty but they are too short (only 8-9 inches). They are, however, heavier than 12 guage guitar wire. Even when the wire is doubled and tightly twisted, it is not significantly heavier than the stem of a boars bristle.

I don't know that I'd want to fool with carbon rods. They can be brittle and if you get a fragment under your skin it might not be easily removed. Friend of mine had a fly rod blow up on him while playing a large salmon up in Alaska. Had carbon/boron fragments (like lots of permanent blackheads) under the skin of his face for years.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Membe

(Message edited by dw on June 17, 2006)

DW wrote:
"I use split nylon bristles and do a leg wrap and counterwrap technique...as I say, I never lose a bristle to slippage. "

Yes, I've read your explanation and tried it. I'll have another go now I'm generally getting more used to handling the various bits and pieces.

Just in passing. When I was more active fishing I seem to recollect there used to be something called 'memory line' which was stiffer (never had cause to use it) than regular line.

I might be expecting too much. I can get the thread onto a bristle (yes they are a bit short) sufficiently well enough to break the bristle in a straight pull. The problem arises as soon as the leading edge of the twist hits the hole, it bunches up and that's it, there's no way it's going through the hole. Maybe my hole is just too small.

Should the hole be big enough for the leading edge of the twist to pass without significant friction?

One thing I have found seems to help, for a straight pull, is to make the first frayed end longer than the others, say an inch while the others are stepped 1/2".

"[...]Had carbon/boron fragments (like lots of permanent blackheads) under the skin of his face for years. "

I'll pass on those then!

Cheers

Gordon

Gordon,

Well, reading your description, it sounds like a wax issue to me. But once you get a good, sticky wax, you still need to wrap your bristle tight and flat.

I use pretty cheap nylon, monofilament line. If you are deliberate, and precise, you can take a very sharp knife and initiate a split in the mono that when pulled, like boars bristle, will split the mono right down the middle. If the mono won't split you probably purchased too good a quality nylon. Maxima is a good brand for splitting. Don't get fancy.

I also make my bristles anywhere from 12" (minimum) to 15" long. Heck, if I'm gonna take advantage of the nylon why not take full advantage? If I wanted short bristles, I'd use boar's bristles.

If the taw is "bunching up" when it hits the edge of the hole it is definitely a wrap/wax problem. I'd look at both issue, if I were you. When I wrap/counterwrap my split bristle I get a section of wraps that can be as long as three-sixteenth to one-quarter of an inch that are so tight to each other...yet not overlapping and so flat that for that initial distance, at least, the wraps do not significantly add to the diameter of the bristle. But the wax, while not the whole answer, is at least part of the answer as to why the wraps are sliding. Also the wraps and a further 15"-18" should be over-waxed with beeswax to lubricate those wraps.

I think the hole should be large enough for one wrapped bristle/taw to go through relatively easy (or maybe just slightly smaller). Two is another matter. You might try this trick I have taken to using...feed one bristle point into the hole far enough that the point is out the other side and can be grasped. BUT!! Do not feed it so far that the wrapped portion is even touching the leather around the hole. Do the same from the other side with the other bristle.

Firmly anchor one side/point so that it cannot move. Grasp the other bristle and pull it through quite vigorously. Pull about 15" of the thread through still anchoring the other bristle. Now, grasp that bristle and the thread section behind the first bristle and pull *both* through the hole. You'll be pulling some of that 15" mentioned previously back through the hole it just came through but that section will reinforce the second bristle as it is pulled.

I do this all the time anymore and I am very fast at it now. Pull, pick up, pull and separate and then finish the stitch.

I'm pretty sure your wax is your main problem, but believe me, I've been there. When I first started, I used to coat the taw of my linen thread with all-purpose and when that was dryish, I'd wrap my bristle...tight, always tight...and the cement would stick to itself as well as the bristle. Still wasn't foolproof but it helped a lot. My current method is the closest to foolproof I've used in my career. I even get most of my in-shop students through a first inseaming with this method (even if I have to sometimes wrap the bristles myself )

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member


(Message edited by dw on June 17, 2006)

DW

Thanks for the detail. Not long been up here, I'll have another go later today.

I've been twisting my taws which may be adding to the bulk at the leading edge. I'll try keeping/leaving it flat.

Not sure whether you're doing it the same way but to split my nylon I just get hold of one end with left finger and thumb then take a little slice just in front of the grip as if I was going to sharpen it to a fine point - not all the way through and just about 1/8-3/16" long, get hold of the 'barb' and pull. It seems to find it's own way to the middle.

I might have to resort to the all purpose though...

Cheers

Gordon