The Crispin Colloquy

I have a question on last selection that I'd like to throw out there to see how bootmakers , shoemakers and last makers deal with this issue. A Morton's toe is when one has a short 1st metatarsal bone (and long 2nd toe) see diagram in correcting common foot problems... It can radically change the heel to ball measurement which is a key component in proper fit of custom footwear.

I'm not specifically asking for answers from the orthopedic community. (although I'll take these too!) And I'm not just talking orthopedic shoes. I'm interested in boot lasts, shoe lasts, dress shoe lasts.

A Morton's toe occurs in about 1/3 of the population so is this something that occurs often. What considerations, if any, do you make in last selection/ design/ modifications in this foot type???

Thanks,
Sean

Sean,

I don't see that the longer toe affects the choice of last greatly, as the heel to ball distance relates to the body of the foot. All that is required is to build up the toe of the last. You can't select a last to fit the length of the foot with an extended toe and expect to get anywhere near the fit.

Tim

Sean,

I'm with Tim, I don't see how it affects last selection. I'd like to hear from others on this because I am by no means certain that there isn't something I'm missing here.

What it comes down to, I guess, is that I don't really see how a Morton's toe would affect the heel to ball measurement, as that is taken along the medial side of the foot. Perhaps it skews the treadline so that the foot doesn't flex evenly from medial to lateral but how does one, in the ordinary course of things, recognize or measure that much less adjust for it?

I would think that if you have a customer who complains or in some way indicates that there is a problem, or if the maker uses some sort of foot scanner , then it might be caught and I'm sure you have a way to compensate. But the usual customer that comes in my door is not ordinarily a candidate for orthopedic work. As a consequence, I have never looked for Morton's toe nor noticed it.

And proceeding from there...I just go about measuring and fitting up as usual.

I guess that's one of the reasons why I gravitated to boots in the first place...I almost never get the kind of foot problems you probably see on a daily basis and when I do, I generally turn the work down--knowing that I am not qualified.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Sean,
Hope you were able to decipher what I was elaborating on the other day in that treatise on gait I delivered in the orthopedic department .I agree with Tim and DW wholeheartedly.
Ok,FRED

The only thing I would add to that is that you will need to build up the front of the last just as you would to change a toe shape. It is not an uncommon problem and extra long or short toes don't have any bearing on the heel to ball measurement which is the important one.

Just keep building up the front until the last is around 10 - 12 mm longer than the longest toe. If the toe has been damaged (because of it's length) then you may have to increase the height of the toe of the last to compensate.

When selecting a last, you can't go on length overall, you must go by heel to ball length. After drawing round the foot, not the tread line, but the outside, make a mark 5mm in from the back, then place the seat of your last on that mark and check that the ball lines up with the joint position of the last. Once you have that, deal with any other considerations.

Tim

Thanks Tim, DW, and Fred for your insights,

For some reason the topic seemed difficult to get my head around. I think DW nailed it in saying it would change the treadline. I'm less concerned with toe length, Tim, but the placement of the Metatarsal joints. Matching the medial ball length as is and extending the toes would put the treadline too far back for the 2nd and 3rd metatarsal joints...but I don't see any way around that in last modification or selection.
I think I may have made too much of this. A bit like an old dog who won't let go of his bone

I understand your approaches here Tim and DW. If my concerns were valid, then I think one of you would have had fit problems related to a Morton's toe. Apparently my concerns were unwarranted and I can proceed without worry!

Thanks again,
Sean

Sean,
I think your concerns are valid and are worthy of one Last point from my perspective.That is,the mortons toe accomodation built right under the big toe and joint[under the insole] will stiffen the medial distal aspect of the shoe enough to lesson the load on the 2nd metatarsal and joint,loading the big toe and balancing the forefoot pressure at toe off.This will also make the foot supinate at midstance/heel lift,when the foot is or at least should supinate.
Hope I have not crossed any boundaries in adding this last thought!This topic seems to fall into grey matter.
Thanks to Tim and DW for your input and thoughtful attention to Seans question....
OK,Fred

Fred,

Building a stiffener under the 1st right into the shoe would address my concern with uneven pressure across the metatarsals, fixing the treadline issue. Pretty slick option! Thoughts anyone?

Sean

All,

I've fallen behind on some of my work so I had to spend time at the bench and stay away from the computer. I read the discussions but did not dear comment as I knew I would not have the time to get into a discussion.
Not that I'm all caught up on my work but as I was reading some posts I thought I throw out my thoughts and observations now that we are snowed in here.
It does get one in the spirit of the season

Sean, on the last selection for a customer with a Morton's toe I may do things slightly different.
First consider your options, there are 3 different basic approaches. I know many makers do not want to cut the last and will try to work with a stock last. If that's your approach I would select a last not exactly to the heel – ball measurement. I would take a last that has a larger heel ball measurement, probably middling the difference to where the medial ball is and where it could be expected following the tread line.
You have to consider that in most cases with the Morton's toe the 2nd toe is not longer, it's the fist that is shorter. The difference it that it's not just the 2nd metatarsal head but all of them that would be to far forward of the tread line if you select based on the medial ball.
You can build up the last slightly behind the medial ball to reflect the joint volume if needed.

When I make fully orthopedic lasts I will start with a last where the tread line of the last matches the tread line of the foot. Under the 1st ray I would take off material so that when I build my orthotic on the last it creates a “platform” for that shorter metatarsal to sit on. As you change your last bottom you will not be able to just put an insole on it, you will have to fill up the voids and even out the bottom before adding an insole.
I would not stiffen the extension as it would defeat the purpose of bringing the ground up to the shorter metatarsal. If you keep the extension under the first ray flexible mechanically you “bring the ground up” to the shorter metatarsal and “trick” the foot in carrying weight across all the metatarsals in gait.
If you stiffen the extension under the metatarsal you will cause the foot to roll around the 1st toe. You could get similar complaints from your customer as if they had a Hallux limits (decreased range of motion in the joint) and you'll likely see a pinch callus and in the long run the possibility of the toe drifting laterally, causing pressure on the other toes.

A 3rd approach is to stiffen the entire shoe - boot. A thick insole or sole stiffener would do the job of taking motion out of the metatarsal joints. When the joints are barely moving a Morton's toe will not give you any problem. If you do that you don't have to worry to much about how you select your lasts. You can select based on the medial ball to heel length and as long as the volume is correct you'll be fine.

Off course the degree of the deformity and how much your customer is effected by it will ultimately be the most important gage as to anything special need to be done and which approach is best.
Just my .

Rob

Rob,Your 3 approach`s for the Mortons Toe and Last considerations are excellent.Thank you for your thoughtful presentation.
The stiffener I use is flexible in Orthotic fabrication and does not inhibit motion in the joint,and your clarification is a good observation.
The last modifications you discussed are a lot more practical in plaster and definetly do-able for the dress lasts.
With the dropping of the metatarsals 2,3 and 4,would you incorporate an intrinsic metatarsal arch to the dress last or wellington?
The approach of starting with a stock last a little larger sized and using a build up to correct the medial arch length is another very good remedy and it would also give us the opportunity to adjust the lateral arch length.That may also avoid having to build up the last for the 2nd toe length.

Sean ,You surely asked a good question ,And I learned more then I bargained for!!!
Thanks again Rob ,you are certainly an asset to this forum along with DW and everyone else.

Sorry, I forgot to sign out.Yours truly,Fred

Fred,

I would likely incorporate a metatarsal pad. With the 1st toe shorter you will see overloading of the rest of the metatarsal heads and one of the best ways to offset that is still a metatarsal pad. If you don't have the overloading of the other metatarsals or if you find that the foot is responding exceptionally good to your correction you could leave the met pad out but mostly it will not hurt to put one in.
Be careful not to make it too high as it will counter the effect of the wedge under the 1st ray!

You're right on that middling the difference when you select a stock last will bring your closer to your lateral ball and toe length. Maybe not perfect but closer compared to when you just select a last based on the medial ball length.

What material do you usually make your Morton's extension out off? I generally use cork or EVA.

Rob

To anyone that has the corporate knowledge,

My question of the day is: what plastic are plastic lasts made of? Is is nylon, PET, UHMW, Acetal, etc....? Just curious because it may help when doing build-ups to know what I'm sticking to for a better surface prep.

Thanks, Lyle

Lyle,

All (to my knowledge) plastic lasts are made from a high density polyethylene, another byproduct of your friendly neighborhood oil company. For minor repairs, the best way to "patch" a last is to cut an old last you no longer want into small pieces. Then melt the spot to be patched with a butane torch until it becomes molten. At the same time, melt one of the small pieces by holding it with channel locks or some other gripping device. When both the last to be patched and the piece you're using become molten press them together tightly for a few seconds as they both cool. You can then sit the last down until it is totally cooled and sculpt the patch to your liking. I'm sure the fumes are somewhat toxic so be in a well ventilated area.

For larger work like building up you would need a mini-extruder and raw pellets of the plastic...not feasible.

I THINK Lisa Sorrell's husband Dale is familiar with some kind of "Bondo" type material that sticks very well to this type of plastic but I forgot what it is. Normal true Bondo usually won't stick well and won't hold up anyway. Devcon Plastic Steel or Plastic Aluminum does "OK" if you rough the area to be built up first but no guarantees on that either and it's very expensive. I think the best way for a boot maker to build up plastic lasts is still the cemented/tacked leather method but then I've never done it that way myself so I'm sure it's not all that easy either.

Bill “The Last Man Standingâ€

Bill, Lyle,

If a plastic last is roughed up with 80 grit sandpaper before cementing, standard all-purpose and leather will work admirably. It won't last forever but a couple of years is usually sufficient. Taking along the featherline where hammering might jar the build-up loose is also recommended

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Since I have been using Olga to order my lasts, I've found I'm ordering very narrow lasts and having to build quite a bit. My first few took me way too many hours, gluing bits by bits.

In that process I discovered the bits stuck better when I had a thin layer of leather glued down first, scratched and tacked as recommneded. Well on these last couple, what I did first, was cover the whole dang last in two halves with pieces of veg split. (I do other leatherwork, and so I order tooling sides in the desired weights, say a 5 ounce. Then I ask for the split {in this instance about 5 ounces itself} which otherwise would be thrown away by Wickett and Craig, from whom I buy it.)
Actually I think Bill can provide the shell patterns for quicker pattern developement of these first layers.

Once I've got this base layed down on the last, I can just build up as needed, doing successivly smaller pieces as I build up an area. Then I just take it to my sander and sculpt and shape away. I then coat the whole thing with the Diamond Floor Finsh mentioned elsewhere here on our forum.

That's my spin on this subject.

Paul

Thanks guys,
You laid it all out and answered all the follow on questions to boot. I have heard that you can etch HDPE with bleach and acid mixed together to improve it's stickage but I think that I'll pass on that experiment and sick to the 80 grit and Barge. I know of only one advertised HDPE adhesive called Plastex 3000 from Canada that will stick but the price is a little rich for this process. I'll stick with the leather and all purpose and occasional tack but I think the key may be the top coat to stabilize things. Thanks again!
Lyle

Lyle,

Not to call into question the efficacy of the Diamond Floor Finish because I know of several folks who use it...but for years and years I have been using press cement to coat build-ups.

From my understanding the Diamond Coat takes a while (overnight?) to dry. I can apply, let dry, sand down and apply at least five coats of press cement in a day and that's just as I happen to think of it or pass by. The press cement dries that fast and is totally waterproof. What's more "drippage" can be salvaged and with a little acetone turned back into serviceable cement...or "Kewpie Dolls."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Thanks DW,
You have a good point. I'll have to break down now and order some press cement. I was putting that off until I was doing some more toe puffs and heel counters. I also like the kewpie doll idea.
Thanks again, Lyle

DW,

I have not felt held up by the dry time of the Diamonmd Floor Finish at all. I don't know if it's because I'm not trying to work it right away or if Arizona dry is just that different from Oregon. Letting it dry overnight is as much about what else I may need to do as it is about waiting.
I know I have not felt the need for five coats, one or two seems sufficient. And I have experienced no difficulty in withdrawing my lasts as a result of my choices.
I started using this acrylic finish when I was in between press cement availability and have most all of the gallon to go.
I have since gotten more press cement and use it for my toe boxes.

Paul

Paul,

I know...several makers I am acquainted with like the Diamond Floor Finish...don't let me discourage you.

Several thoughts to mull over, if it makes any difference, though...

I didn't know that the Diamond was acrylic. I was under the impression that acrylic is water based and water soluble. Since we last wet...??

The other thing is that I use the press cement in a number of coats to: first freeze any loose fibers...then I sand those off, fill in any open pores or seams and eventually create a really smooth and waterproof surface--just like the last itself.

Insofar as the Diamond Floor Coating does something similar (or simply meets your needs) it may be both cheaper and more readily available, if nothing else.

Press Cement is only made by a very few outfits anymore and the quality varies, esp. if they add "plasticizers." How lacquer compares, I have no idea...never thought to try it...but Rick is right, press cement is nitrocellulose.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Rob,
My this board fills up fast! I've been busy in my shop getting orthotics made before X-mas. So, A belated thank you for your experience in the matter of last selection/ modification with a Morton's Toe. I like that you gave 3 options to deal with the problem depending on the degree of deformity. Selecting a slightly longer last made intuitive sense to me... I think DW does well without taking it into account because he a)refuses difficult orthopedic cases and b)uses a stiff outsole and insole material in his boots (at least compared to my cheap Boulet's.)
Your Custom lasts make sense too. Exactly the same principles and materials I'd use with an orthotic.
Thanks to everyone for your input!
Sean

DW,

Well, that's the thing about acrylic though isn't it? I mean it's water soluable, it can be thinned with water, it cleans up with water. However once it dries and sets up, it's impermeable to water. So the finish should not be in jeopardy of activating when the leather is wet.

But I have to admit something. ANd this is just what you and AL were talking about in another thread about misinfrormation on the internet. I can find nowhere on the can that says this is acrylic, nor do I find any info on the Varathane web site. So it's entirerly possible I'm wrong about it being acrylic. Somebody straighten me out please.

But it is water soluable. So the previous thoughts would still apply.

But it does bring up another point about last preparation. Some lasts I've seen in other makers shops are not sealed and finished in the way we've been talking about. It looks like some are raw wood with leather buildups on them. If there ever was a finish, it's dried up and worn off.

Wouldn't that just be impossible to pull from the boots? Isn't this smoothness critical to the lasting process itself, aided by the baby powder? It seems that it should go without saying, but I have the feeling there might be another "school of thought" about this.

Paul

Paul,

With buildups I guess I of the "other school" in that I just used powder on the last so that it slipped easily. Mind you, I never lasted wet, which may change things, but I wouldn't think so.

I originally used leather buildups like you find on lots of old lasts, but it is harder to form than the insole board I eventually went to. This was a non-woven insole board and unlike the pink cardboard types of board, is a tan coloured firm board around 3 mm thick. Cut into strips and just glued to a last, they are easy to form and work.

Tim

I have some Watco Lacquer out in the garage so I painted some on to plastic sheet and let it dry. I peeled it up and it readily dissolved in acetone.

I believe it is pretty much the same stuff as press cement except dissolved in a higher boiling solvent. MEK (methyl-ethyl ketone) by the smell of it. That is probably to make it dry slower so you have time to brush it better. Of course, there may be other stuff in there too. MEK is about twice as toxic as acetone and boils 30 degrees higher. I think it smell disgusting compared to acetone.

So if you don't mind the wait and the smell, I bet you'll get the same result as press cement.

Diamond Floor Finish is water borne polyurethane. Once dry, it has polymerized and will not redissolve in water. Of course, this takes even longer to dry.