The Crispin Colloquy

I have PMd Alasdair earlier, but to update ansine who is interested...

Well, thanks for the response. Sorry about the delay in replying but I have been collecting machine parts.

Got most of it sussed out, and I have a couple of the thread retaining springs. replaced the bobbin carrier, drive pinion and pinion bush. It is all MUCH tighter in there now.

Now, if you know how to fit the wretched things (the thread retaining springs that is) I am all good to go :-)

All,

I have a customer who want a pair of suede shoes. [heavy sigh]

In all the time I have been making boots I have never had a customer want a suede boot. Any hint that they were interested and I went into my spiel about how suede was just flesh side of the leather and not the best layer but certainly the most vulnerable to water and dirt, etc..

What's more most of the full grain calf I get in seems to be boarded or ironed on the flesh side.

So...where does one get good quality calfskin processed to use as suede?

Or how does one bring up the nap on the flesh-side of a full grain calf? I presume that one would need a struck-through leather so that when the nap was raised you wouldn't see chrome.

Any help would be appreciated.Even tips on how to keep it clean during assembly and making.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I'm not so sure suede is just the flesh side. I have some very nice suede I picked up from a scrap bin and it's clearly suede on the grain side.

Sorry, not any help for your question. Just kibitzing your assumption.

I know that when I glass a sole, it's basically suede on the bottom. How you would do that with upper leather, I couldn't say.

Rick,

No, you're right. In fact, when I first got into this business I was taught that real suede was grain buffed horse.

But of course, that's not what most people think of, or refer to, when talking about suede.

I don't think that that's what my customer has in mind. If it is, maybe Horween...fact is, I might give them a shout, anyway. It could be interesting to send this fellow a swatch of real suede and see what he makes of it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I think nubuck is pretty much what Rick said with the soles. I think that would be a better choice than suede. If I understand with nubuck they buffthe grain till its suedey but it still retains the properties of the grain.

I got some suede from The Hide House in Napa that looks real nice. It feels firm and has a real smooth not too fluffy surface, it is real black too, they have other colors 4-5 oz. and it was cheap.

It wasnt the stuff I made my chukkas with that I posted before.

Courtney

Ackkk! This cataract nonsense drives me nuts trying to post. I am looking for a manual for an 1860's-1880;s McKay stitcher. The treadle one with the 2 big legs.. Sure could use some help on this.

Cheers,
JesseLee

DW,

Did he ask for blue suede, does your customer sing a bid on the side as well as spot some killer sideburns???

Suede is a problem, good suede is a myth I heard about from old timers but never experienced myself. Freudenberg used to do a very decent job with calf suede but they are no longer around. I remember a post to the forum some years ago about a German company trying to fill the void after Freudenberg closed/sold their tannery but can't remember their name and wouldn't know if they are still around considering the economic recession.

You correct that suede is just the flesh side but the tanning components of suede are slightly different to make it more suitable for flesh side out. Be careful with Suede that does not have a grain side, this is split and not a good enough quality unless it's for a small inlay that does not take any strain. I would caution you to use a regular skin inside out, it won't be worth your effort trying to bring up the nap and probably won't wear very well. If you can convince your customer, Nubuck is your better choice as the quality available is a bit better and it wears nicer.

To keep it clean, I've seen factories use shrink wrap around the shoe/boot and inseamed through that and finishing the bottoming only to take it off when the shoe/boot is ready but you'll always be able to see a little plastic in the welt. Never tried it and I can't imagine having the plastic over the last makes it comfortable to work with. If anything it makes for a very slippery piece to work with. Just work clean, don't put down your work unless it's on a clean peace of paper. Use talcum powder in stead of a marking pen when marking and cutting your patterns. Don't leave the powder on too long and use an air gun to clean the powder the suede after you sewn your upper.

I bought decent pig suede some years ago, a couple shades of brown. Believe it came from Mexico but I'm not 100% sure. It's a slightly different look from calf, not as nappy but wears a little better. I never worked with Horse myself so can't tell you about that.
Be very careful with black suede, much of it has a tendency to stain pants and anything else coming in contact with it. For some reason the dye is not as secure on the skin and it starts looking bad very quickly.

So not much help from my end, call your regular vendors and see what they can come up with.

My

Rob

DW,

I have some good suede in three shades of browns,If interested,I can send you a picture of the skins,The skins are about 11 ft to 13 ft and about 3oz.

I used masking tape on the suede buttons boots,I made recently,but a cover of canvas or shrink wrap can be used to keep clean, I never used the shrink wrap myself,if you decide to use masking tape,make sure it is of good quality and by that i mean,the one the doesn't leave any of the tape adhesive on the suede after you remove it,A test on a piece of scrap will do the trick.

Nasser

Nasser,

Yes, I would like to see photos. Flesh and grain. Thank you.

Are you willing to part with a dark brown?

Where did you get this?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Here are the three colors of the suede,they are rolled with grain side up and the size number is of course on the flesh side as it should be, This is a well kept old hoarding and it came from our good friend Rene Hackstetter when i was recently looking for some good suede.Didn't want to sound like a salesman of leather,especially when talking to the web master,But yeah,If you need some,I am willing to part with some,since i rarely get orders in suede.

Nasser

All,

A note about keeping shoes clean. I don't know how satisfactory a solution this might be but for those who don't have a shrink wrap machine handy, Glad Press and Seal may be gently boned onto a surface...like leather,flesh or grain...and it will stick very well all by itself. It peels off with no residue.

This is the stuff with the tiny little dimples all over the surface. If you bone those dimples flat it sticks nearly as well as blue masking tape.

I have been experimenting with it and can lift small pieces of leather with nothing but the adhesion of the plastic wrap to support it. Like a toe cap lofted by a 1"x1" strip of it.

I have not tried to wrap a whole shoe with it to put it to the real test but I will soon.

Makes good sandwich wrap too.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW:

I've used the Press and Seal also; I find it works well. I generally cut strips say 2 or 2 1/2 inches wide and wrap it around the side of the shoe I'm inseaming or outsoling.

I have found it may slightly affect the look of the leather, so I recommend testing it on a piece of leather before using it on an upper -- better safe than sorry.

Lance

Hello all,
Sorry I have not posted in a long time due to work commitments but I do read what goes on to keep in touch.
It just so happens I am working on a few suede/nubuck jobs at the moment,one being a blue suede full brogue.Suedes vary as much as any leather ,some of the nicer finer napped skins are quite thin and are sometimes backed with a kind of canvas / linen to give more body.
We often work with delicate materials and I find covering them the best way to avoid marks.
When I first started we used a cloth, a bit like thin cotton bed sheet. This was ok but could leave stray threads when removed and could spoil the finished job.
I then experimented and made covers from cling film ( is this the same as shrink wrap ?)I put 3 layers together to give it more strength and just a strip of masking tape near the feather edge to protect from heat by finishing tools and used this method for years .I now get covers made from a thin very stretchy plastic which is very strong and lasts over very easily and can be removed without a trace.
I am very wary of using a strip of tape directly onto the leather I have seen it pull colour out of the skin as Lance mentioned or affect the nap on suede also.I know many makers use it but I wince every time I see it done .
Using a cover is a little fiddly to fit and welt through but once done you can press on without worry of marking the shoe and when neatly removed you have a really clean job.
In the real old days I believe they used paper for covers which must have been very difficult.
Trying to work clean is always a good idea and when I was an apprentice I saw a maker getting ready to make a white doeskin shoe. He put on a clean new apron and a clean pair of thin cotton gloves . He worked very fast and had obviously done this many times before .I never forgot that but I am not brave enough to try it so its covers for me every time.
Regards Mack

Mack, anyone...

If you are welting through a plastic film, how do you go about cutting it free when the shoe is done?

Can it be cut free clean enough that there are no remnants to spoil the job?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW
It may depend on the type of plastic used but if you are careful you will see no trace.
Use a sharp pointed knife or scalpel on the welt side and you will barely touch the cover and it will come away cleanly.
Another way is to use an old dulled knife and warm it to melt the cover but be careful as it may make a mess if the plastic is not suitable may be worth a try out first.
Regards Mack.

Mack,

Hmmm...scares me. But I will have to give it a try.

I want to say thank you for taking the time to offer advice and insight. I admire the cleanliness and refinement of your work immensely. I know, of course, that just because you can do it doesn't mean that I can...yet. But it gives me hope and something to shoot for.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW
You can do it fine.I never had the plastic make a mess with the warm knife but I just added the caution as I dont know what plastic you may use.Once you have done it a few times it will not trouble you at all.Hope you get hold of some nice suede as this will make all the difference to the refinement of the job especially if you have to do any punching on them. I have made some shoes with coarse napped suede and it did not look the part, it was also not very nice to work with ,as you know choosing the right material can make such a difference.
Best of luck
Mack.

DW, I used to have the problem of tape removing the finish..I use the following method on my delicate finishes like italian roo,which I use on the inside of my alligator wallets .... I use blue painters tape...Warm just a little with a blowdryer or similar as you remove it. Super clean removal with no harm....Suede should be a cinch and you probably don't even need the heat.

DW, ALL.....Oh yeah....forgot to mention....I do use a shrink wrap when I need to cover the whole shoe...I use a wrap I get at ULINE.COM.....It is the same wrap they use to shrink wrap gift baskets and such....They come in different size square sheets and round also, I believe. I think I buy 16" x 18"....About a dollar each if I recall....I wrap over the top of the shoe before welting....apply heat with a heat gun and it works great after a little practice,...and its a durable plastic cover....different weight plastics are available also.

John,

Good tip with the heat gun and the blue masking tape!! Thank you.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Masking tape,as a protecting cover on veg tanned,especially if there is some finish on the surface,will lead to some discoloring on the grain when the tape is peeled,hot or cold,the discoloring is less visible than on veg tanned without finish,I avoid using masking tape as a cover on veg tanned leather,but it works real well on suede and some of the tape remain on the feather edge,but only visible at eye level.

Nasser

To all,

I have been looking for an Adler arm sewing machine manual, model 69-562L,but with no luck,so i thought i will ask here,Any help is appreciated.
The machine is working well,but i like to replace the big wheel that is on now with a smaller wheel,but i don't know how to get the big wheel out.

Nasser

I would like to ask for a pattern if any of you are willing. A client would like me to make a pair of golf shoes size 9.5. I just need a general vamp/toung pattern. It will be a basic wing tip lacer, not a saddle shoe. Would any one be willing? email for my address
jbtlc@q.com
Thanks, JB

Jim,

Without the last...modified if it's going to be...it might be difficult for anyone to create a set of patterns for you. I can't speak for anyone else but I've had enough of my own patterns fail in some respect (even when I was making them directly off the last I was going to use) that taking responsibility for a pattern for a last not seen would be a problem.

There are several options, however: Rick has an online patternmaker that he has made available to the forum (I don't know the specifics...you need to PM him). From all reports it works well.

Golding, Volume I, deals with patternmaking and cutting and it is available for free download under the "Library" rubric on the Guild homepage.

Frank Jones has a book out that deals with patternmaking in detail. Many kinds of shoe design are covered.

Hope this helps some...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW
I know I have the will but have no idea how much challenge is before me. Thank you for your direction.