Shoemakers and last makers/modifiers,
Here's my next question...
Suppose I have a shoe last and the profile looks something like this (taken from an actual shoe last...close to but perhaps not 100%+ accurate)
There is no way for me, as a beginner, to know if this profile is typical of shoe lasts, in general, or if other models might not be shaped somewhat differently. But across the board this model seems shy of what I would expect in the cone for a given foot size. Now this last is a stock size (8/8ths heel) and while it matches the length of the foot, heel to toe and heel to ball, it is, as would be expected, shy in the forepart width and in the instep girth...as well as the long heel. Obviously we have to add a build-up to accommodate the instep girths and the forepart.
But where?! Where is that build up placed?
Suppose after we get done adding to the forepart, the only logical and esthetic place to add the build-up, without destroying the lines of the last, is on top of the cone. Does anyone ever add a build-up to the top of the cone to meet a customers needs?
After we have added the build-up to increase the instep girth and the long heel, might not the last look something like this?
This second image is of a last set for a 8/8ths heel, which has been modified to fit a foot a foot with a relatively large forepart and instep.
Now compare the first image with the second...
Would anyone approach this exercise differently? Placing the build-up somewhere else?
Would it surprise anyone to know that the second image is of a modified boot last? Is it so far off the mark from a shoe last?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
One "Last" Question
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
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romango
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Re: One "Last" Question
DW,
IMHO, build ups anywhere above the black line have little effect on the shoe shape, once on the foot. There is no stiffening in this area. So the only issue is volume, as estimated by ball, instep and short-heel girth measurements.
I have made several pairs of shoes from foot casts, where the cone shape looks nothing like a last. They always look a little strange right when the last is removed but fit fine. My experience is very limited but this is my feeling for it, so far.
IMHO, build ups anywhere above the black line have little effect on the shoe shape, once on the foot. There is no stiffening in this area. So the only issue is volume, as estimated by ball, instep and short-heel girth measurements.
I have made several pairs of shoes from foot casts, where the cone shape looks nothing like a last. They always look a little strange right when the last is removed but fit fine. My experience is very limited but this is my feeling for it, so far.
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
Rick,
That would be my take too. But several people have commented that my boot lasts look a bit odd and that the shoes made on them aren't quite the thing. So I am looking for...struggling to define for myself what constitutes...a classy, classically shaped last.
That said, it would seem to me that if I start with a shape very similar to my first drawing and, by necessity, add a build-up for the instep and/or long heel, I...by necessity...have to come some way in the direction of shape two.
Which makes me wonder how an observer...and, knowing some of them, I deeply respect their opinion...can identify a last as "odd" or as a "boot last" or anything else, if it is not known what kind of build-ups were needed to make the last fit the customer. ??
I hope some of the other, better versed makers...such as Rob, Al, Tim, Dan, Lance, etc....who have commented on this previously, will chime in here with further advice or observations.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
That would be my take too. But several people have commented that my boot lasts look a bit odd and that the shoes made on them aren't quite the thing. So I am looking for...struggling to define for myself what constitutes...a classy, classically shaped last.
That said, it would seem to me that if I start with a shape very similar to my first drawing and, by necessity, add a build-up for the instep and/or long heel, I...by necessity...have to come some way in the direction of shape two.
Which makes me wonder how an observer...and, knowing some of them, I deeply respect their opinion...can identify a last as "odd" or as a "boot last" or anything else, if it is not known what kind of build-ups were needed to make the last fit the customer. ??
I hope some of the other, better versed makers...such as Rob, Al, Tim, Dan, Lance, etc....who have commented on this previously, will chime in here with further advice or observations.
Tight Stitches
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romango
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Re: One "Last" Question
I was thinking that the reason for the prominent cone on a boot last might be to facilitate the transition to the leg part of the boot as opposed to griping at the top of the arch.
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artzend
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Re: One "Last" Question
DW
Yes I always built up to the cone from the forepart without shaping it at the top to look like your boot lasts. A shoe doesn't need the cone shaped back like your diagram, at least I don't think so.
You just add material where it is needed, not just to look like you think it should. That approach doesn't work I don't think. You are building for a foot, not the last.
I wouldn't put anything behind the joint line under the last. Leave the bottom alone and add to the top. If you need to add behind the joint line then the last is too long for the measurements.
Yes the boot last doesn't look like a shoe last, sorry. I always had a problem with imperial measurements and all those fractions, but 8/8ths instead of 1" is a new one for me. I went metric years ago.
Tim
Yes I always built up to the cone from the forepart without shaping it at the top to look like your boot lasts. A shoe doesn't need the cone shaped back like your diagram, at least I don't think so.
You just add material where it is needed, not just to look like you think it should. That approach doesn't work I don't think. You are building for a foot, not the last.
I wouldn't put anything behind the joint line under the last. Leave the bottom alone and add to the top. If you need to add behind the joint line then the last is too long for the measurements.
Yes the boot last doesn't look like a shoe last, sorry. I always had a problem with imperial measurements and all those fractions, but 8/8ths instead of 1" is a new one for me. I went metric years ago.
Tim
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
Rick,
Yes, I think you are right. I've always thought that the cone on a boot last had been "pulled" up to open the throat of a boot as it was being lasted.
Tim,
I was not contemplating putting a build-up behind the joint line. I am with you in that if the last is correct length-wise you shouldn't have to mess with the bottom. My profile of the second last--the modified boot last--may not be 100% correct as it was hard to see the actual bottom in the photo from which the tracing came. And I didn't feel it was necessary to get fussy with that part of the profile.
But I do feel that if you are "building for a foot" then you have to respect the foot in all its dimensions. To me that means that you need a long heel measurement just as certainly as you need an instep and ball girth and, in the end, the last should reflect those same measurements...as taken from the foot.
In my first illustration, the last is a model taken from a very famous maker of ready made shoes. The third illustration, seems to indicate that there is not a lot of difference. Given that if I had to build up the cone of the first lasts it might have ended up looking very much like the second last, I'm not seeing what you are seeing when you say it "doesn't look like a shoe last." Maybe it truely doesn't...that's why I am asking here...but the profiles are so similar that to my eye, and aside from the build-up over the cone, there doesn't seem to be a nickel's worth of difference.
If I were to have only shown you the second illustration and only told you that there was a build up over the cone of the last, how would you have known it was a boot last?
As for the 8/8th's terminology...ever since I started making boots some 35 years ago I have seen and heard this type of designation when talking to lastmakers. I think that among lastmakers, this is actually their preferred way of talking about heel height...at least here in the States.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Yes, I think you are right. I've always thought that the cone on a boot last had been "pulled" up to open the throat of a boot as it was being lasted.
Tim,
I was not contemplating putting a build-up behind the joint line. I am with you in that if the last is correct length-wise you shouldn't have to mess with the bottom. My profile of the second last--the modified boot last--may not be 100% correct as it was hard to see the actual bottom in the photo from which the tracing came. And I didn't feel it was necessary to get fussy with that part of the profile.
But I do feel that if you are "building for a foot" then you have to respect the foot in all its dimensions. To me that means that you need a long heel measurement just as certainly as you need an instep and ball girth and, in the end, the last should reflect those same measurements...as taken from the foot.
In my first illustration, the last is a model taken from a very famous maker of ready made shoes. The third illustration, seems to indicate that there is not a lot of difference. Given that if I had to build up the cone of the first lasts it might have ended up looking very much like the second last, I'm not seeing what you are seeing when you say it "doesn't look like a shoe last." Maybe it truely doesn't...that's why I am asking here...but the profiles are so similar that to my eye, and aside from the build-up over the cone, there doesn't seem to be a nickel's worth of difference.
If I were to have only shown you the second illustration and only told you that there was a build up over the cone of the last, how would you have known it was a boot last?
As for the 8/8th's terminology...ever since I started making boots some 35 years ago I have seen and heard this type of designation when talking to lastmakers. I think that among lastmakers, this is actually their preferred way of talking about heel height...at least here in the States.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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artzend
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Re: One "Last" Question
DW
I thought that it looked like a boot last because of the shape of the cone. A shoe last is generally much straighter than the boot lasts you use, which, once again, are different from boot lasts produced out of the US. That shaped cone is something that I think is unique to cowboy boot lasts. I could be wrong with that but that cone shape is distinctive.
The comment about the bottom was prompted by the illustration, and it seems that the picture was not conveying what you were saying.
I covered last building in my book (Bespoke Shoemaking) in a fair amount of detail because it is important. If you ever have to grind off a last for a very long and very narrow foot, there is no way that it looks aesthetically pleasing, and it certainly looks odd, but when worn on the specific foot, (no way it would fit another one), it just looks right. Skinny feet are probably a better example of building a last to fit a foot than a fatter one.
Long heel line is just not applicable to a shoe design, I don't see why you need it. Just place your last on the foot pattern an build where it is required according to the measurements. It doesn't matter what it looks like, it's the fit on the foot that is crucial.
Tim
I thought that it looked like a boot last because of the shape of the cone. A shoe last is generally much straighter than the boot lasts you use, which, once again, are different from boot lasts produced out of the US. That shaped cone is something that I think is unique to cowboy boot lasts. I could be wrong with that but that cone shape is distinctive.
The comment about the bottom was prompted by the illustration, and it seems that the picture was not conveying what you were saying.
I covered last building in my book (Bespoke Shoemaking) in a fair amount of detail because it is important. If you ever have to grind off a last for a very long and very narrow foot, there is no way that it looks aesthetically pleasing, and it certainly looks odd, but when worn on the specific foot, (no way it would fit another one), it just looks right. Skinny feet are probably a better example of building a last to fit a foot than a fatter one.
Long heel line is just not applicable to a shoe design, I don't see why you need it. Just place your last on the foot pattern an build where it is required according to the measurements. It doesn't matter what it looks like, it's the fit on the foot that is crucial.
Tim
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das
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Re: One "Last" Question
DW,
I'm with Tim here. After you get the sample lasts I'm sending ("Monday"], you'll see what architecture and "look" our shoemaker eyes are looking for. Boot lasts just have a higher rise, a more swooping and prominent instep, and are relatively thick through the backpart--not clipping in as tightly as a shoe last. If fact, if you look dead-on at the back of a West End last, or many of the classic (bespoke/hand-sewn) lasts, it looks like a cock's comb from the stern, almost like its melting and curling over laterally. Hard to describe....you'll see
I'm with Tim here. After you get the sample lasts I'm sending ("Monday"], you'll see what architecture and "look" our shoemaker eyes are looking for. Boot lasts just have a higher rise, a more swooping and prominent instep, and are relatively thick through the backpart--not clipping in as tightly as a shoe last. If fact, if you look dead-on at the back of a West End last, or many of the classic (bespoke/hand-sewn) lasts, it looks like a cock's comb from the stern, almost like its melting and curling over laterally. Hard to describe....you'll see
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lancepryor
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Re: One "Last" Question
I don't have much insight to offer here, but here are some pics of my bespoke last, as made by a leading London lastmaker. Note that I have a VERY high instep and arch, a pretty wide forefoot, and a very narrow heel -- I believe Carl Lichte said I had something like a EEE forefoot and a AAA heel.
Inside profile:
Outside profile:
The back of this lastmaker's lasts is very interesting but hard to describe. It seems to curve slightly outward, or at least gets thicker toward the lateral part of the heel. Perhaps someday I'll do a video of it, since single angle shots don't really capture it.
Comb pic 1
Comb pic 2
Inside profile:
Outside profile:
The back of this lastmaker's lasts is very interesting but hard to describe. It seems to curve slightly outward, or at least gets thicker toward the lateral part of the heel. Perhaps someday I'll do a video of it, since single angle shots don't really capture it.
Comb pic 1
Comb pic 2
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
Lance, Tim,
Looks like you've modded your last set up to build a higher heel than it was set up for?
The fundamental issue that I am concerned with is, of course, the distribution of substance. This would be important both in the basic look and feel of the last...ie. influencing the fit and the styling, but it would also have a great deal to do with how and where one placed a build-up so as to achieve a fit without altering that "look."
I was talking to Al Saguto about this and he mentioned that the "American" look on oxfords is to allow the facings to gap on the foot...sometimes as much as an inch apart at the top. If that was accepted as a reasonable result then I can see where the long heel might not ever even be considered. He also told me...and my own eyes confirm it, that the classic British look is that the facings lace up pretty close together.
Now, I don't have much experience with shoe lasts but I have a long career of dealing with feet and fitting feet. When we make a boot we must deal with the foot as a whole....simply because the vamp will cover the whole foot and there are no laces--no fudge factor allowed.
So I feel very uncomfortable with the whole concept of ignoring the long heel measurement. And if I want to approach the more "classic," British fit, I feel doubly uncomfortable ignoring the long heel for the simple reason that, like the boot, the vamp covers the part of the foot that is defined by the long heel and there is very little adjustment if the facings are to remain close together.
I see the cone on your last is straight. This seems to be a hallmark of some shoe lasts. And I can see where that would make the whole shoe lay easier and straighter over the cone. But It doesn't say much about the distribution of substance. Any last can be cut like that, but it is no indication of whether the girth measurements or the long heel measurement is correct. I could even take my heavily modified boot last...which does, BTW, have a very much narrower cone/comb (narrower than a 7A in the shoe last and maybe even narrower than yours)...and simply add a build-up above the instep and fill in the waist a little and achieve that same straight cone.
The bottom line is that...and I am honestly open to reasons and points to the contrary...if we consider a foot that has a high arch, ie. pes cavus, or something approaching it, versus a foot with a very low arch--a "functionally healthy flat foot" and both with the same instep girth, it seems to me that the long heel on these two feet will be substantially different and the fit will be substantially different.
So how do we address that? Again, the answer will directly affect both style and fit...in other words, how we distribute substance--how we add build-ups or cut away.
Maybe this doesn't make any sense...maybe I'm obsessing, but leaving it to chance or the vagaries of the customer's tolerance for a wide gap in the facings makes me uncomfortable. I already know I can get a fine fit from a modified boot last. So that corroborates my basic assumptions.
Now I need to understand what constitutes a classic shoe last. And how to achieve that with a wide range of feet and foot shapes. How to make a truly bespoke shoe without feeling like it's gonna be a roll of the dice.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Looks like you've modded your last set up to build a higher heel than it was set up for?
The fundamental issue that I am concerned with is, of course, the distribution of substance. This would be important both in the basic look and feel of the last...ie. influencing the fit and the styling, but it would also have a great deal to do with how and where one placed a build-up so as to achieve a fit without altering that "look."
I was talking to Al Saguto about this and he mentioned that the "American" look on oxfords is to allow the facings to gap on the foot...sometimes as much as an inch apart at the top. If that was accepted as a reasonable result then I can see where the long heel might not ever even be considered. He also told me...and my own eyes confirm it, that the classic British look is that the facings lace up pretty close together.
Now, I don't have much experience with shoe lasts but I have a long career of dealing with feet and fitting feet. When we make a boot we must deal with the foot as a whole....simply because the vamp will cover the whole foot and there are no laces--no fudge factor allowed.
So I feel very uncomfortable with the whole concept of ignoring the long heel measurement. And if I want to approach the more "classic," British fit, I feel doubly uncomfortable ignoring the long heel for the simple reason that, like the boot, the vamp covers the part of the foot that is defined by the long heel and there is very little adjustment if the facings are to remain close together.
I see the cone on your last is straight. This seems to be a hallmark of some shoe lasts. And I can see where that would make the whole shoe lay easier and straighter over the cone. But It doesn't say much about the distribution of substance. Any last can be cut like that, but it is no indication of whether the girth measurements or the long heel measurement is correct. I could even take my heavily modified boot last...which does, BTW, have a very much narrower cone/comb (narrower than a 7A in the shoe last and maybe even narrower than yours)...and simply add a build-up above the instep and fill in the waist a little and achieve that same straight cone.
The bottom line is that...and I am honestly open to reasons and points to the contrary...if we consider a foot that has a high arch, ie. pes cavus, or something approaching it, versus a foot with a very low arch--a "functionally healthy flat foot" and both with the same instep girth, it seems to me that the long heel on these two feet will be substantially different and the fit will be substantially different.
So how do we address that? Again, the answer will directly affect both style and fit...in other words, how we distribute substance--how we add build-ups or cut away.
Maybe this doesn't make any sense...maybe I'm obsessing, but leaving it to chance or the vagaries of the customer's tolerance for a wide gap in the facings makes me uncomfortable. I already know I can get a fine fit from a modified boot last. So that corroborates my basic assumptions.
Now I need to understand what constitutes a classic shoe last. And how to achieve that with a wide range of feet and foot shapes. How to make a truly bespoke shoe without feeling like it's gonna be a roll of the dice.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
Lance,
BTW, are you ready to take possession of a brouging tool yet? I thought you asked me to hold off till next week? Will Monday work?
PS...thanks for posting those photos. That really helps.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
BTW, are you ready to take possession of a brouging tool yet? I thought you asked me to hold off till next week? Will Monday work?
PS...thanks for posting those photos. That really helps.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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lancepryor
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Re: One "Last" Question
DW:
Yes, I will be back home Monday, so send the stuff on at your earliest convenience.
Regarding your comments, I have not altered the last -- the maker added a leather build-up under my medial joint, I believe because I have a prominent joint as a result of Pes Cavus. He suggested I hollow out the flesh side of the insole under the build up to accommodate it.
I don't really have anything to add to your observations regarding the long heel. Certainly, your logic makes sense to me, so I wish I could add something of value to the conversation. As promised previously, I will try to compare my lasts' long heel measurements to those of my feet when I get a chance.
I did send the maker of my lasts some pics of my finished blue boarskin shoes, on my feet. There is a small gap in the top of the facings, and he responded that I should add a bit of leather to the top of the last to cause subsequent pairs to have totally closed facings, so Al's comments in this context are certainly correct re: the British preference.
Perhaps I will arrange for you to inspect my lasts to see how they compare to measurements of my feet.
Lance
Yes, I will be back home Monday, so send the stuff on at your earliest convenience.
Regarding your comments, I have not altered the last -- the maker added a leather build-up under my medial joint, I believe because I have a prominent joint as a result of Pes Cavus. He suggested I hollow out the flesh side of the insole under the build up to accommodate it.
I don't really have anything to add to your observations regarding the long heel. Certainly, your logic makes sense to me, so I wish I could add something of value to the conversation. As promised previously, I will try to compare my lasts' long heel measurements to those of my feet when I get a chance.
I did send the maker of my lasts some pics of my finished blue boarskin shoes, on my feet. There is a small gap in the top of the facings, and he responded that I should add a bit of leather to the top of the last to cause subsequent pairs to have totally closed facings, so Al's comments in this context are certainly correct re: the British preference.
Perhaps I will arrange for you to inspect my lasts to see how they compare to measurements of my feet.
Lance
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relferink
Re: One "Last" Question
All,
I was in the shop earlier taking pictures of shoe lasts, modified and non modified when it dawned on me that they do not mean anything as you will not be able to hold them and get the full 3D picture. Just looking at the outline is not enough. Sure the side view is the most obvious in the recognizing of a shoe vs boot last but where to put the buildup on a shoe last without turning it into a boot last is more than pointing to a spot. For me it would probably be just as difficult to modify a boot last without making it look like a shoe last. After all your trials and tribulation it may be time to look up a shoemaker and look over his/her shoulder. Do I hear road trip? Maybe next years HCC meeting?
Alternatively make a last following Koleff's last making book. I don't think that will go to well as it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks
, not that I compare you to an old dog but you have certain ways of doing things when it comes to lasts and fitting. In order for you to get somewhere with Koleff's book you have to let all that go. Maybe you can do it, if it were me I don't think I can “forget” everything I know and be open minded enough.
The million dollar question, what makes it look like a boot lasts? Sorry, I can see it but not explain it. All I have to offer: if it sounds like a duck, looks like a duck and smells like a duck, it probably is a Duck. Feel free to substitute duck with boot last.
Wish I could help you out more as I was one of the fist to point out the “oddness” if you will. The common tread among the shoemakers here seems to be “you know it when you see it” and that is just not good enough an explanation to help you to get any further in your quest.
I don't think it's your feet and measurements that are so out of the ordinary that they would default to a boot last. The way you measure and apply the measurements are suspect but I can't tell for sure either way. You make a strong case in all your years of experience, even if that's for boots. Not a perfect case but a strong one never the less.
With that said I really don't have anything to offer, that's why I didn't jump in before.
Rob
I was in the shop earlier taking pictures of shoe lasts, modified and non modified when it dawned on me that they do not mean anything as you will not be able to hold them and get the full 3D picture. Just looking at the outline is not enough. Sure the side view is the most obvious in the recognizing of a shoe vs boot last but where to put the buildup on a shoe last without turning it into a boot last is more than pointing to a spot. For me it would probably be just as difficult to modify a boot last without making it look like a shoe last. After all your trials and tribulation it may be time to look up a shoemaker and look over his/her shoulder. Do I hear road trip? Maybe next years HCC meeting?
Alternatively make a last following Koleff's last making book. I don't think that will go to well as it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks
, not that I compare you to an old dog but you have certain ways of doing things when it comes to lasts and fitting. In order for you to get somewhere with Koleff's book you have to let all that go. Maybe you can do it, if it were me I don't think I can “forget” everything I know and be open minded enough. The million dollar question, what makes it look like a boot lasts? Sorry, I can see it but not explain it. All I have to offer: if it sounds like a duck, looks like a duck and smells like a duck, it probably is a Duck. Feel free to substitute duck with boot last.
Wish I could help you out more as I was one of the fist to point out the “oddness” if you will. The common tread among the shoemakers here seems to be “you know it when you see it” and that is just not good enough an explanation to help you to get any further in your quest.
I don't think it's your feet and measurements that are so out of the ordinary that they would default to a boot last. The way you measure and apply the measurements are suspect but I can't tell for sure either way. You make a strong case in all your years of experience, even if that's for boots. Not a perfect case but a strong one never the less.
With that said I really don't have anything to offer, that's why I didn't jump in before.
Rob
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
Rob,
I hear you...please understand, I'm listening, I really am...but what I take away from everything I'm hearing ( and I'm almost afraid to say this) is that shoemakers don't really deal with the whole foot. [and yes I know that's a gross generalization and undoubtedly an injustice to you and others] But it seems to me that having the laces there means that it's "close enough for gu'mint work."
And you know what?...I could accept that if there were some rationale behind it...or even a set of parameters that I could rely on--you know, something like "measure the instep girth and subtract half an inch" and "don't worry if the long heel measurement is out a quarter of an inch." In fact if I was certain that I could adopt a last model or order a run...even one was totally at odds with everything I think I know about fitting the foot and fitting up the last...and yet be certain that I could achieve a respectable fit and esthetically pleasing shoe using that last...even if I had to change the way I measured and transferred those measurements to the last...I would do it in a heartbeat so long as I could be convinced that the results were repeatable and the method could be relied upon.
But it all seems so hazy and indefinite. So "smoke and mirrors."
Beyond all that, the only person that I know who has actually "made lasts with Koleff" told me the last didn't fit. And I respect that individual's diligence and attention to detail. So I'm not ready to chalk it up to sloppiness or inaccuracy. And doubly so since I used the Koleff system to lay out a last for myself (although I never actually made them) and to tell the truth they ended up looking more like my boot last than the shoe last I currently have in hand.
That said, I really do appreciate the patience that you and Tim and Al and Lance and Rick have shown me. It is indeed trying to teach an old dog new tricks and I am not ashamed to admit that I am an old dog and slow to change or even learn at times.
And having said that, it occurs to me that maybe I am shooting too high. Maybe I should just be satisfied to get a shoe on the last, nevermind the stylishness or lack thereof, and achieve a satisfactory fit. What a "revoltin' thought" that is but I do believe I can do that. I even believe I can do that with my boot lasts if I want to spend a little time modifying them...irretrievably. [sigh]
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I hear you...please understand, I'm listening, I really am...but what I take away from everything I'm hearing ( and I'm almost afraid to say this) is that shoemakers don't really deal with the whole foot. [and yes I know that's a gross generalization and undoubtedly an injustice to you and others] But it seems to me that having the laces there means that it's "close enough for gu'mint work."
And you know what?...I could accept that if there were some rationale behind it...or even a set of parameters that I could rely on--you know, something like "measure the instep girth and subtract half an inch" and "don't worry if the long heel measurement is out a quarter of an inch." In fact if I was certain that I could adopt a last model or order a run...even one was totally at odds with everything I think I know about fitting the foot and fitting up the last...and yet be certain that I could achieve a respectable fit and esthetically pleasing shoe using that last...even if I had to change the way I measured and transferred those measurements to the last...I would do it in a heartbeat so long as I could be convinced that the results were repeatable and the method could be relied upon.
But it all seems so hazy and indefinite. So "smoke and mirrors."
Beyond all that, the only person that I know who has actually "made lasts with Koleff" told me the last didn't fit. And I respect that individual's diligence and attention to detail. So I'm not ready to chalk it up to sloppiness or inaccuracy. And doubly so since I used the Koleff system to lay out a last for myself (although I never actually made them) and to tell the truth they ended up looking more like my boot last than the shoe last I currently have in hand.
That said, I really do appreciate the patience that you and Tim and Al and Lance and Rick have shown me. It is indeed trying to teach an old dog new tricks and I am not ashamed to admit that I am an old dog and slow to change or even learn at times.
And having said that, it occurs to me that maybe I am shooting too high. Maybe I should just be satisfied to get a shoe on the last, nevermind the stylishness or lack thereof, and achieve a satisfactory fit. What a "revoltin' thought" that is but I do believe I can do that. I even believe I can do that with my boot lasts if I want to spend a little time modifying them...irretrievably. [sigh]
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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romango
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Re: One "Last" Question
Maybe this is obvious but... a shoe (or boot) last is not the shape of the foot. It is the shape of the inside of the shoe, which ideally accommodates the foot.
As Otto Horverst said: "If the customer doesn't like the way it looks, it won't fit".
So, it can be largely subjective, in the end analysis. That is not to say we don't try to fit the foot. But it is an art of holding an apple comfortably inside an orange.
(sorry to digress)
As Otto Horverst said: "If the customer doesn't like the way it looks, it won't fit".
So, it can be largely subjective, in the end analysis. That is not to say we don't try to fit the foot. But it is an art of holding an apple comfortably inside an orange.
(sorry to digress)
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
Rick,
That's a good one...the "art of holding an apple comfortably inside an orange."
I think you are right on the money there. I know folks who claim to have made boots on a plaster cast of the foot, but to my eye they never look right. They never have that certain elegance...those lines...that lift the boot from "home-made" to professional. And shoes made on a plaster cast, while much closer to the ideal than plaster casts for boots, also seem to miss the mark a little...even to my inexperienced eye.
My goal is to avoid fitting the apple into the skin of a crook-neck squash.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
That's a good one...the "art of holding an apple comfortably inside an orange."
I think you are right on the money there. I know folks who claim to have made boots on a plaster cast of the foot, but to my eye they never look right. They never have that certain elegance...those lines...that lift the boot from "home-made" to professional. And shoes made on a plaster cast, while much closer to the ideal than plaster casts for boots, also seem to miss the mark a little...even to my inexperienced eye.
My goal is to avoid fitting the apple into the skin of a crook-neck squash.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
Tim,
The only thing I would clarify...in hopes that it will "further understanding among nations"
is that when I take the long heel measurement it goes from the "corner" of the heel to the instep point (or middle cuniform). Since the topline of the shoe rises above the middle cuniform (except in loafers) it would seem to me that you would want to know what that measurement is.
[I was talking to Al Saguto the other day and for some reason he seemed to think I was referring to a short heel measurement when I really meant something further down the foot. So I wondered if I had been confusing you with my terminology as well. ]
As for the curve at the top of the cone, I don't see what difference it makes...the topline of the shoe never gets that high, there is no part of the vamp that reaches much above the instep point.
Well, enough of this...I'm not really arguing with you--you know a heck of a lot more about this than I do. I'm just trying to square what I'm hearing with what decades of fitting and decades of bootmaking have taught me. It's hard to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
The only thing I would clarify...in hopes that it will "further understanding among nations"
is that when I take the long heel measurement it goes from the "corner" of the heel to the instep point (or middle cuniform). Since the topline of the shoe rises above the middle cuniform (except in loafers) it would seem to me that you would want to know what that measurement is. [I was talking to Al Saguto the other day and for some reason he seemed to think I was referring to a short heel measurement when I really meant something further down the foot. So I wondered if I had been confusing you with my terminology as well. ]
As for the curve at the top of the cone, I don't see what difference it makes...the topline of the shoe never gets that high, there is no part of the vamp that reaches much above the instep point.
Well, enough of this...I'm not really arguing with you--you know a heck of a lot more about this than I do. I'm just trying to square what I'm hearing with what decades of fitting and decades of bootmaking have taught me. It's hard to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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hidesmith
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Re: One "Last" Question
DW,
I think that, for the standard foot and the standard customer, "good enough" is just that. You know that feet change, and most feet change even during the course of a day. Laces make it possible to make slight adjustments if the need arises.
I like Rick's "apples inside oranges" - to a fair degree, it's an accurate discription of what we're trying to do. Actually, based on the fact that our feet DO change during the course of a day, we're trying to fit DIFFERENT apples inside the same orange. If the orange peel has laces on it, the different apples will, in general, be more comfortable. "Good enough" HAS to be sufficient.
We've discussed "the proper fit" on this forum in the past. If I'm not mistaken, almost every maker defines "the proper fit" differently from the next maker. Some of us hold to one school of thought, some others. Some have researched "the proper fit" and some make shoes on standard lasts. Sometimes, "the proper fit" has more to do with the control the arrogant customer wants to have over the shoemaker. "The proper fit" often has more to do with the mind of the customer than the feet of the customer.
Or did I misunderstand you?
Bruce
I think that, for the standard foot and the standard customer, "good enough" is just that. You know that feet change, and most feet change even during the course of a day. Laces make it possible to make slight adjustments if the need arises.
I like Rick's "apples inside oranges" - to a fair degree, it's an accurate discription of what we're trying to do. Actually, based on the fact that our feet DO change during the course of a day, we're trying to fit DIFFERENT apples inside the same orange. If the orange peel has laces on it, the different apples will, in general, be more comfortable. "Good enough" HAS to be sufficient.
We've discussed "the proper fit" on this forum in the past. If I'm not mistaken, almost every maker defines "the proper fit" differently from the next maker. Some of us hold to one school of thought, some others. Some have researched "the proper fit" and some make shoes on standard lasts. Sometimes, "the proper fit" has more to do with the control the arrogant customer wants to have over the shoemaker. "The proper fit" often has more to do with the mind of the customer than the feet of the customer.
Or did I misunderstand you?
Bruce
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
Bruce,
For almost the entire time I have been making boots and fitting feet, I have had as a little mantra the words "you can't just fit the customers foot, you have to fit the his head, too."
But fit is not what we are talking about in this thread. As I said, I can fit the foot. I can even make a shoe on a boot last and fit the customer's foot. I've been doing that too, for nearly 35 years...every time I make a pair of packers (essentially a high top shoe).
This thread is more about styling and the shape of lasts and the effect that a particular shape of last has upon patterns and the overall look of the shoe.
Vass (HMSFM) talks about how it is traditional to use an English last for oxfords and a German last for derbies. But he further defines an Austrian last, a Viennese last, a Budapest last and an Italian last--presumably all of which are so distinct that shoes made upon them will be immediately recognizable. I'm not sure that I would agree with him...and I'm virtually certain that most West End makers wouldn't feel the need to switch to a German last to make a derby but the point is still about styling and not fit.
For myself, as I have said, I am striving for the classic English look and I know I am not likely to come anywhere close if I stick with a boot last. But the bottom line for me is that, in the end, a last is just a chunk of wood...to achieve style you have to understand the foundations of that style.
And sorry (more for me than for you)..."close enough" is not good enough in that context....at least not in my book.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
For almost the entire time I have been making boots and fitting feet, I have had as a little mantra the words "you can't just fit the customers foot, you have to fit the his head, too."
But fit is not what we are talking about in this thread. As I said, I can fit the foot. I can even make a shoe on a boot last and fit the customer's foot. I've been doing that too, for nearly 35 years...every time I make a pair of packers (essentially a high top shoe).
This thread is more about styling and the shape of lasts and the effect that a particular shape of last has upon patterns and the overall look of the shoe.
Vass (HMSFM) talks about how it is traditional to use an English last for oxfords and a German last for derbies. But he further defines an Austrian last, a Viennese last, a Budapest last and an Italian last--presumably all of which are so distinct that shoes made upon them will be immediately recognizable. I'm not sure that I would agree with him...and I'm virtually certain that most West End makers wouldn't feel the need to switch to a German last to make a derby but the point is still about styling and not fit.
For myself, as I have said, I am striving for the classic English look and I know I am not likely to come anywhere close if I stick with a boot last. But the bottom line for me is that, in the end, a last is just a chunk of wood...to achieve style you have to understand the foundations of that style.
And sorry (more for me than for you)..."close enough" is not good enough in that context....at least not in my book.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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hidesmith
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Re: One "Last" Question
DW,
I was responding to your statement about the necessity of laces on shoes. In THAT context, style doesn't matter. Feet change, and laces serve a definate function. In THAT context, good enough has to be good enough. Most shoes, unless they are made too tight and jam the toes, will not hold the heel without laces, elastic, buckles, etc. Laces, or whatever kind of closure you use, are necessary. The KIND of closure you use is one of the charactaristics of design, for which I have a lot fewer credentials. The fact that there is no known, or standard formula for laces doesn't negate (is that the correct word?) the need for them.
I like the little "so THERE!" smiley face. I don't know how to make them, so I'll just say it
"So THERE!" said Bruce, as he stamped his little foot, crossed his arms and stuck his nose in the air. He IS a stubborn little cuss.
Or did I STILL misunderstand you?
I was responding to your statement about the necessity of laces on shoes. In THAT context, style doesn't matter. Feet change, and laces serve a definate function. In THAT context, good enough has to be good enough. Most shoes, unless they are made too tight and jam the toes, will not hold the heel without laces, elastic, buckles, etc. Laces, or whatever kind of closure you use, are necessary. The KIND of closure you use is one of the charactaristics of design, for which I have a lot fewer credentials. The fact that there is no known, or standard formula for laces doesn't negate (is that the correct word?) the need for them.
I like the little "so THERE!" smiley face. I don't know how to make them, so I'll just say it
"So THERE!" said Bruce, as he stamped his little foot, crossed his arms and stuck his nose in the air. He IS a stubborn little cuss.
Or did I STILL misunderstand you?
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
Bruce,
But you missed the whole part about English versus American style... as relayed to me by Al Saguto. Once you take that into consideration, style does matter simply because style was the whole basis of Al's remarks.
As for the smiley face, I did not design or create it. But the creator entitled it "hmmm." Whether you think that sentiment appropriate or not, is up to you, I guess, but that's at least partially the reason I chose it.
Don't worry about misunderstanding me. I don't. I always figure that if the person I am talking to has an open mind and is willing to come at least halfway and is, further, willing to actually read what I post...in detail...and follow along somewhat sympathetically, he will always give me a chance to explain something he may be misunderstanding. He may, in fact, actually ask me to explain...
(this one is entitled "scared"...fear and loathing? ...or since he starts out smiling maybe "shock?)
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
But you missed the whole part about English versus American style... as relayed to me by Al Saguto. Once you take that into consideration, style does matter simply because style was the whole basis of Al's remarks.
As for the smiley face, I did not design or create it. But the creator entitled it "hmmm." Whether you think that sentiment appropriate or not, is up to you, I guess, but that's at least partially the reason I chose it.
Don't worry about misunderstanding me. I don't. I always figure that if the person I am talking to has an open mind and is willing to come at least halfway and is, further, willing to actually read what I post...in detail...and follow along somewhat sympathetically, he will always give me a chance to explain something he may be misunderstanding. He may, in fact, actually ask me to explain...
(this one is entitled "scared"...fear and loathing? ...or since he starts out smiling maybe "shock?) Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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hidesmith
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Re: One "Last" Question
DW,
I didn't address that aspect of the discussion for fear that my ignorence might be discovered. I make on standard lasts, I only have one last style, I do not try to "custom fit" or modify the lasts at all. I design what I do and do what I know, but still have a lot of learning to do in my OWN areas. I'm limited enough, and am aware of my limitations, that I cannot learn even a smidgen of the stuff I read on this forum. As a reader of Conan Doyle, I concur, to a degree, with Holmes - if it doesn't apply to my situation, I need not learn it (please pardon the paraphrase). I need to learn, and learn well that which applies to my endeavors. To spend too much time trying to learn other stuff outside my areas confuses me. WHEN it applies, THEN is when I need to learn it.
For instance: lining a shoe.
To date, all the shoes I've made have been without linings. Most have been with the flesh side out. There has been no need for linings, or it has at least been less urgent. The fact that I didn't know how didn't matter. I am now thinking about trying to make myself a pair of insulated work boots, and I am interested in lining them. I spent the day yesterday with Dan Freeman, and one of the topics of discussion was shoe lining. Now that it's becoming necessary, it's time for me to learn it.
I'll contribute what I know, and sometimes what I THINK I know, but I really don't like it when I expose myself to ridicule, based on my own ignorence. I've never seen a smiley face that says "DUH! and I don't want to - at least, as relates to me. I'm sensitive!
Thanks for your patience,
Bruce
Oh, dear! Did I just expose my ignorence? Please, no "DUH!" faces.
I didn't address that aspect of the discussion for fear that my ignorence might be discovered. I make on standard lasts, I only have one last style, I do not try to "custom fit" or modify the lasts at all. I design what I do and do what I know, but still have a lot of learning to do in my OWN areas. I'm limited enough, and am aware of my limitations, that I cannot learn even a smidgen of the stuff I read on this forum. As a reader of Conan Doyle, I concur, to a degree, with Holmes - if it doesn't apply to my situation, I need not learn it (please pardon the paraphrase). I need to learn, and learn well that which applies to my endeavors. To spend too much time trying to learn other stuff outside my areas confuses me. WHEN it applies, THEN is when I need to learn it.
For instance: lining a shoe.
To date, all the shoes I've made have been without linings. Most have been with the flesh side out. There has been no need for linings, or it has at least been less urgent. The fact that I didn't know how didn't matter. I am now thinking about trying to make myself a pair of insulated work boots, and I am interested in lining them. I spent the day yesterday with Dan Freeman, and one of the topics of discussion was shoe lining. Now that it's becoming necessary, it's time for me to learn it.
I'll contribute what I know, and sometimes what I THINK I know, but I really don't like it when I expose myself to ridicule, based on my own ignorence. I've never seen a smiley face that says "DUH! and I don't want to - at least, as relates to me. I'm sensitive!
Thanks for your patience,
Bruce
Oh, dear! Did I just expose my ignorence? Please, no "DUH!" faces.
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artzend
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Re: One "Last" Question
DW,
If you look at my book you will see that we are talking about the same thing with the long heel line, I only started using a short heel line measurement when I started with George and that was only for his patterns, not to set up the last.
So at least that terminology is universal. Because a last is not really representative of a foot and there is no really accurate way that I can see to measure a long heel line on a last, then it probably isn't relevant to shoemaking.
It is a bootmakers measurement for sure, but I still reckon it is for working out boot leg dimensions for the passline, not last building. Sorry.
All the other measurements taken during foot measurement, when applied to the last sitting in position on the foot outline, will give you the particular positions of the buildups.
Just the way I do things.
Tim
If you look at my book you will see that we are talking about the same thing with the long heel line, I only started using a short heel line measurement when I started with George and that was only for his patterns, not to set up the last.
So at least that terminology is universal. Because a last is not really representative of a foot and there is no really accurate way that I can see to measure a long heel line on a last, then it probably isn't relevant to shoemaking.
It is a bootmakers measurement for sure, but I still reckon it is for working out boot leg dimensions for the passline, not last building. Sorry.
All the other measurements taken during foot measurement, when applied to the last sitting in position on the foot outline, will give you the particular positions of the buildups.
Just the way I do things.
Tim
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: One "Last" Question
Just finished making my new lasts (and molds) out of Smooth-On products.
Here is the open mold with the hardware on a wire (so I don't have to drill a hole and put the hardware in later). Before pouring the plastic I cover the bolt (but not the furniture bolt at the bottom) with non-hardening clay so I can get the bolt out.
Here is the mold reinforced on the outside, held together with double-sided velco, and tilted so that marks I made where I wanted the first part of the last to end are level.
Here is the first part of the last still in the mold.
(continued)
(Message edited by Jenny Fleishman on December 03, 2007)
Here is the open mold with the hardware on a wire (so I don't have to drill a hole and put the hardware in later). Before pouring the plastic I cover the bolt (but not the furniture bolt at the bottom) with non-hardening clay so I can get the bolt out.
Here is the mold reinforced on the outside, held together with double-sided velco, and tilted so that marks I made where I wanted the first part of the last to end are level.
Here is the first part of the last still in the mold.
(continued)
(Message edited by Jenny Fleishman on December 03, 2007)
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: One "Last" Question
Part II...
Here are the two foreparts of the lasts. One has been trimmed with various angles so that the second part of the last will stay in position. It would not be possible to create these kind of surfaces by making the full last and cutting it apart later.
Here it is ready for the pouring of the second part of the casting. The bolt has been covered with the clay again.
Here is the finished last. The two parts are slightly different in color because I added a few drops of tint to both batches, and not scientifically
I also did some touch-up sanding on the last, thus the matte areas.
Now the question still is, will the shoe will fit!?
Jenny
Here are the two foreparts of the lasts. One has been trimmed with various angles so that the second part of the last will stay in position. It would not be possible to create these kind of surfaces by making the full last and cutting it apart later.
Here it is ready for the pouring of the second part of the casting. The bolt has been covered with the clay again.
Here is the finished last. The two parts are slightly different in color because I added a few drops of tint to both batches, and not scientifically
I also did some touch-up sanding on the last, thus the matte areas. Now the question still is, will the shoe will fit!?
Jenny
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