Seeking knowledge or survey

[Tex Robin]

DW,

What Gary said makes a lot of sense too. Atmospheric pressure, humidity and type of water
may come to play in soaking times. Although I
believe that Texas water is harder than most. But we do have more humidity here in Texas. I don't have refrigerated air conditioning and in the summer my swamp cooler adds to the humidity....TR

[Tex Robin]

DW,
Here is another reason my soles take up water faster. I soak them in a one gallon ice cream bucket and they have to be bent in a circle and do not touch in the bucket. Buy being bent and sitting on edge the grain is more open....TR

[cmw]

you might want to ask Janne. As far as I know the tempering proc. you have discribed is called "at valse" = to roll . An old orthopedic maker showed it to me in school. It gives a good sole for the shoe. As far as I remember, he said that the sole last much longer this way.

He showed me a few other tricks which had to do with nails and the heal that I think you would be strongly against. He used nails around the edge of the heal to draw the layers very close together and very compact. I think it is something left over from the time when they used "klister", which was like a very slow drying glue that was not that strong.

CW

[gcunning]

One other point I would like you all to chew on about casing. I was in Fort Worth at George Hurst's business. I was talking about casing some leather for a belt I was making. George and the other demonstrator (I think his name was Al) asked me why I cased? I told him the basic reasons that most of you have listed in the above posts. George responded with: Most leathers nowadays (he was referring to stamping type leather) do not require casing. Just a nice spray of water will hold a stamp job nicely. He went on to say casing was in the old days. Leathers have come a long ways in the past few years (I summarized - not an exact quote).
Now that was George Hurst talking about stamping. I'm wondering if anything much has changed with sole leather?

[Tex Robin]

Gary,

I really don't believe that stuff that you were told about tooling leather. Although you don't have to case a piece of tooling belt leather, you do need to fully wet it by dipping in water before you start your swivel cutting. Then you should be able to do all of your tooling before it completely dries. I have seen toolers who are really slow use a spritz bottle on their tooling and it is always dull looking when they finish. The leather just doesn't burnish in the shaded areas with that method.

And I don't think that soling leather has changed
much in the last 40 yrs, except for becoming more expensive...TR

[gcunning]

All I'm saying is what Hurst told me. They didn't laugh at me but I felt a big grin. Like: "everybody knows you don't case anymore". That is not what they said its just how I felt.

[gcunning]

I reread my post and it sounded a little hateful. The people at Mr. Hurst's place were really helpful and nice.

[danfreeman]

Two things happen when leather is cased:First, it gets wet all the way through--you can tell only by cutting through a piece to see whether the middle is wet. But even when it is wet through, the leather isn't as pliable--as cased--as it will be several hours later, when the cells are filled with water, not just the spaces between them. For maximum moldability, I soak soles 5-20 minutes. NOT enough to wet them through, then wrap in newspaper (sometimes a plastic bag) overnight. Next day, the excess from the waterlogged outside of the sole has soaked all through, and the leather is evenly--but not excessivly--damp throughout. You could accomplish the same thing by soaking for several hours, and leaving it in the newspaper for 24 or 36 hours, but it would merely take longer, and can remove not only loose tannins but oil from the soles.
I must admit, the few western boots I've made have worked because I used the DWFII method of cementing, THEN soaking, the soles--all that curvature is too much, otherwise.

[pegeen]

OK, I'll jump in on this one. I actually KNOW something about casing leather. I've been tooling leather for years. The best casing is done overnight, usually in the 'fridge. (Minnesota is cold this time of year. Putting it in the 'fridge keeps it from freezing and keeps the dog from trying to eat it) When I'm working on a project that will take days to complete the tooling, I do it this way because the moisture content remains in the leather at the optimum level longer. I have found that re-wetting over and over causes my leather to be difficult to tool and uneven in my cuts and impressions. I have used George's methods of wetting leather often. He also uses a "wetting agent" in his spray. This can be as simple as a drop of dish detergent to help make the water "wetter" and it penetrates into the leather more quickly. I don't need the entire thickness of my leather to be wet. I don't cut all the way through my leather and the stamping only affects the top quarter in many instances. How long it takes to completely case leather depends on humidity, air pressure, temperature, how thick your leather, how old your leather and how old the cow was when it met it's demise. There are even differences from one portion of the hide to another. OK, I added my 2 cents....
Pegeen

[Tex Robin]

DW,

The German tanned soles I soaked for 3 hours two days ago are now dry but remain swollen to 15-16 iron. I am going to do another pair today to see if they do the same thing...TR

[gaid]

Even though the sole is damped one way or the other there could still be a problem with the sole following the curvature of the last. I'm thinking of how to put the sole on the bottom of the last. A trick I learnt from a friend in London is to put the sole at the toe area first then make the sole convex and put it at the back of the last. Doing it this way there will be surplus of leather in between the toe and the back of the last. If this is done right the sole will fall down in the waist area nice and gentle without any force. If this is not done right there will be a problem when making for example, a sewed beveld waist. Even though you press hard with the waist iron it will not end up the way you want it due to to much tension in the shank area. Maybe this is the way most of you already are doing it but to me it was news a couple of years ago.

[Tex Robin]

Pegeen,

What part of Minn are you from? I have some cousins in Mora.

I agree with your method of using the frig to keep your leather cased and I prefer it to spritzing which swells the tooling and softens the effect. I also use the frig to freeze cased leather and it can be thawed out later to return to the cased state. I don't do much belt tooling these days but when I do I prefer to just run my leather through a dip in the water and let that be the only dunking it gets. I then do my swivel knife cutting and proceed to finish the tooling before it completely dries out. I may tool myself a belt now....TR

[dw]

Janne,

That's a new one to me, too, and it sounds like a great idea. I think I'll try it the next pair I have to do.

A similar technique that I use most of the time is to put the forepart of the sole on first....a little cock-eyed---so that the back of the sole does not line up directly over the back of the boot. It should be cocked off to the lateral side. Make sure you hammer the forepart firmly and completely. Then pull the back of the sole over, so that it is now lined up directly over the shank and heel seat of the boot. Hammer into place--this will require that a stirrup or drawdown strap is used over the shank to bring the excess leather down to the boot. The sole will suck into the shank area like it wanted to grow there and the fit will be tight. I think it is really the same concept as your "cran" --excess leather is fed into the shank area--but just done from a different angle.

I've always kind of worried that torquing the sole around like that might have some adverse twisting effect on the finished boot...but I have never seen it in all the years I've been doing this. It may be that completely tempering the leather soles prevents any subsequent distortion simply because, as we all seem to be agreed, the leather takes a "set" and will hold that set indefinitely...if "cased" correctly.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Tex,

I'm sorry to be such a danged contrarian but here's the results of my own "experiments." The following photo shows a pair of boots in process with a Rendenbach soles. Right next to the sole--close enough for an exacting comparison--is a unsoaked, uncased Rendenbach sole. The sole on the boot was soaked several hours, wrapped in plastic and let sit overnight, and then mounted on the boot. At which point the boots were stitched and then allowed to air dry to a proper temper before pegging. Frankly, I don't see much difference in the thickness of the two soles.

2348.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[shoestring]

When making a standard whats the best way to find the heel hight and the short heel?Also when casing leather I have used Pro-Carv it helps to control mold its a casing concentrate.
Ed

[Tex Robin]

DW,
It actually looks like the ones on your boot are thinner. I think what I have are inconsistent thicknesses of soles, because the ones I soaked today are not the same as the first ones. So what does either case prove. Nothing, other than the German soles smell and they are not consistent. I don't have a digital camera or I would send you the results of my experiment...TR

[Tex Robin]

DW,
By the way, I think I know why the bark tanned soles smell. When I was in Piteå a cousin told me that the tannery there that does bark tanning has not changed the water in the tanning solution in the entire existence of the tannery. They say the place has a smell that you never forget. It was closed when I was there so I didn't have the privilege to go and smell it....TR

[Tex Robin]

Jake,
Is Arkansas closed for the winter? What has happened to the french roo boots you were making? Report...TR

[dw]

Tex,

No, you are absolutely correct, it doesn't prove a dern thing. And really I wasn't trying to prove anything except perhaps that what applies for one guy in one environment doesn't necessarily hold true for another guy in another environment.

I have to tell you though, that the soles on the boots did take up some water and were about 20% thicker when I put them on the boots. But after drying...and I use long stick to burnish the bottoms...they always come back to the original thickness for me. Of course you are in a much wetter environment and I suppose that it would take much longer for that drying to complete.

The Rendenback solings smells much worse than the Baker's, in my opinion. But what do I know? I kind of like the smell of the Rendenbach. It smells earthy to me and I like that kind of old, dark, earthy smell. It's a manly smell, laddie. Not like that phru-phru Irish Spring.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jake]

Hey Tex,

We haven't closed for the winter! Been busier than a dern bee!

Those boots are sitting on the shelf starring at me. I've just been too busy making a living and making everyone else happy. I'll get to them fairly soon.....I think!

I've been following everyone's discussion on "casing" outsoles with great interest. Since I started making saddles in 1982, I've experienced and researched many methods of soaking, tempering, casing, and wetting leather. In my opinion, it's always better to case your leather overnight in a plastic bag. I usually place mine in the refrigerator to temper (Pam never likes it!). When I started making boots, I just followed my mentor's instructions which coincided with my previous experience with leather. Even light leathers for tooling billfold backs are treated in the same way. Like Tex mentioned, you'll never get the deep dark impressions from tooling with just spritzing (in my opinion). I'm like Dan and a few others who don't soak the leather for hours. I don't like the tannins and liquors to leach out from prolonged soaking. That's probably why they don't change the water in the tanning factory mentioned above. I guess the max I soak outsoles is 30 minutes. It just all depends on how long I forget them (grinning). Like everything else in this business, planning for tomorrow's activities is a must. After a few projects get going, there's never a dull moment, if you plan correctly.

One area where casing/tempering/mulling is so important, is the wetting of the insoles. In my opinion, I can't think of a more important area (except maybe the counter) for the leather to take that "set" D.W. mentioned. If you believe in the topography of your last, it's important for the insole to keep that shape. This is where you HAVE to case the leather, in my opinion.

I'll finish my "Tex" boots .......I promise! I'll also post a pic too!

[Tex Robin]

Jake,

Just been wondering how they are going to look. They should be ready in time for Wichita Falls!
I haven't made any out of it yet, but will. Hey, I haven't done any tooling lately and I need to make myself a couple of belts. Do you have any heavy belt leather 10 or ll oz. E-mail me if you do....TR

[jonathon]

Edward.
The best place to find the heel height is from the last itself.If you set the last on your bench resting on its treadline and with the correct toe spring you should be able to measure the correct heel height for that last.Measure from the 'breast' of the heel, not from the rear of the last. As for the short heel, this measurement is taken from the foot. Using a narrow tape we want to measure from the 'crease' where foot meets leg around the back of the heel and back again. I hope that makes sense. I think I confuse myself sometimes trying to think how to most clearly describe something.
As for my 2 cents worth on 'casing'.......
I soak my soles for upto 20 mins and then if time permits they go into a plastic bag and into the fridge overnight. I do not glue before soaking. In my opinion you are only making things harder. Water will be obsorbed far more readily from the flesh side than the grain and isn't this of course the main objective? About an hour before I'm ready to attach the soles I remove them from there bag and lay them grain side down on my workshop floor.The floor being made of concrete and slabs of slate keeps the grain side cool and damp while the flesh side,exposed now, will dry to a point where contact can be applied.(I always use 2 coats) I have even on the odd occasion sped the drying process along with a hot air gun. I hesitate to mention this as drawing moisture out of leather to quickly is not a good thing, but it has got me out of the poo here and there.
I'm not sure why Australians still use the saying "My two cents worth" We haven't had 2 cent pieces for at least 10-12 years now. Smallest we have is a 5 cent piece. I certainly don't think theres a right or wrong way of doing things in this respect, there are to many variables. So long as we get the desired result.

Cheers.
Jon.

[pegeen]

Tex,
My goodness you must have a large family to have cousins all over the world! I grew up in the very Swedish community of Bernadotte of Nicollet county in South Central Minnesota. I do not work on shoes full time so I still must work at another job. Currently, I work in Mankato (where the Minnesota River bends back to the north) and live 75 miles north of there in Cokato (directly West of the Twin Cities Metro area). It is another 80 or 90 miles to Mora.

Jon,
I don't have a clue about Australians 2 cents but my 2 cents is due to the inflation of the penny for my thoughts!

Pegeen

[Tex Robin]

Pegeen,

Yep, the name is originally Utterström and the cousins in Mora are Stroms. Five families in Sweden with Utterström and one more in Oregon are related..Has the name Hare also been changed?

Can you get a good price for your tooling? This is the reason I don't do much of it. No one wants to pay for the art anymore, so I just don't do it for them anymore....TR

[dw]

Edward, Jonathon,

There *is* a way to obtain the short heel from a last. In fact, it is, in my opinion, an absolute necessity if one is going to make a pull-on boot from a standard last, to a standard size--where you don't have a short heel measurement from a foot, IOW.

There must be a different way to obtain that measurement off the last for every bootmaker working. Since I differentiate between the "instep," and the "low instep," as well as a "high instep" (and many in this part of the Trade do not do that), I have a bit of a different way of going about it. Of course I think my way is more accurate than any other way I've run across but, whatever works for a person...

My method depends on the way I measure the foot, how I break down the last and apply measurements from the foot to the last, and a whole parcel of other factors from theory to practice that inform my understanding of making boots.

I say all this because I sometimes wonder if a person not grounded in my approach wouldn't be completely confused by my detailing such a technique. And having said that, I want to also emphasize that much of what I do is based on good traditional, and historical, understanding and practices. My understanding of the last, as well as the foot, for instance, is based to a great extent on Sabbage. My understanding of measuring the foot, at least partly on Rossi.

So anyway, I take a string and wrap it from one inch up from the featherline at the back of the heel to the high instep. My theory is that if the string (in lieu of a tape measure) were wrapped around the foot as Jonathon describes, and we were to view the foot from the side we would see that string as a line from the front of the ankle to the point of the heel. If we try to superimpose that string/line on the side of the last, the forward end would be in the air above the cone. And the featherline of heel of the last represents an additional "wedge" of material that is not on the foot. These two factors, alone mean that a straight transposition of technique from the foot to the last is not possible.

But if we pivot that string line so that the rear end rises one inch and the forward end drops one inch, the forward end will hit the high instep point (Sabbages section 5) and come up the back of the heel one inch.The measurement from the foot and the measurement from the last should be identical at that point...on the lasts that I use. If it's not, it indicates that the last is either too big or too small for the foot in question.

It works for me...it's almost magic, it works so well. But I can't speak for anyone else. Nevertheless, I hope that helps.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC