The Crispin Colloquy

Finally I decided to keep a 3 days shoemaking course with Janne (member of this forum) in Sweden at the end of July. If anyone would like to join and learn the making of goiser shoe, a few places still left.

This course will be 2 parts: first in Sweden, second - late autumn most probably - in Hungary, Budapest.

Contact me or Janne for details!

Friends,

I have reverted from a nice smooth finish to a more corse one cause' my clients requested it!

I am refering to the side welt only! Some months ago, or a year ago, I tried out D.W.'s horse hide side welt process and I sure liked it. It made the side seaming easier, not having to get the ribbing so-perfect, and it is just a really strong and functional side protection for the threads. I finished it so good that it looked like a ribbing side welt. I have had two comments from folks who are wearing my boots that they would prefer to be able to see that it is a leather side welt and to leave it a little more rough looking.

Fine with me! Can too much "slick" be a detriment? I just thought I would share this bit of data and now I have to get back to work makin' boots.

Best wishes, Larry Peterson

Larry,

Can too much "slick" be a detriment?

Opinion alert!!

Yes and no. First, it depends on how you define "slick." If slick means refinement, the answer, for me, is "no...never." If slick means "busy-ness," or "gaudiness," the answer, again for myself, is "yes, always."

Then too, it depends on what your customers want. What your audience expects, so to speak. But you create and control those expectations, so they are not universal by any means.

Finally, if your definition of "slick" leaves you satisfied and with no incentive to improve your skills, then the answer is "wrong question."

...just my

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Hi Larry
Show us a pic
Please
Regards
Brendan

Brendan, I honestly don't know how! If you would be so kind as to give me some simple instructions I would be honored to post a few pictures.

I made a pair of black buffalo western boots for myself with the first tops I made with seven row stitching. That was a real learning experience! I just hated to throw the tops away and yet they were shy of being professional enough to use for a custmer. I have played around with making the boots "black Cherry" and I experimented with attaching "Mule Ear" pull ups. I used copious amounts of polish over the top fancy stitches and they look almost good. I will awaite your instructions on how to get the picture from the digital camera, (Nikon) onto the colloquy.

You see, I may be dummer than dirt, but if you are having fun, you really don't have awareness like the more intelligent folks. I guess being bright is like a two edged dagger. You have a more highly developed sence of awareness but you also have the worrysome sorting and fretting. I kinda like being "happy as a clam."

I will be waiting to hear from wou with the instructions.

Thank you for tolerating me! Larry Peterson

Larry, Brother!

I knew there was a reason I liked you! Your explaination of happiness is my point of view!

from the clam,
Paul

Hi Larry
Go to left under formatting, scroll down to other formating and it will tell you how. It took me a couple shots to get it but if I can do it I think you can. If not grab a teenager and they will show you.
How do you know a clam is happy? The ones I tried to talk to didn't say much so I ate em. They made me happy but I prefer oysters!

Do clams say happy as a human? oh better stop thinking I smell saw dust burning.
Regards
Brendan

I would like to explore a couple of issues under Misc., and venture into some new territory for me. Up above are some pictures of a last that continues up and forms a "wooden leg" that reaches almost up to the knee. I just assume that this is how the wellington type boot gets that nice round look??? I would like to know if anyone is using these wooden parts in conjunction with their boot last or is that an entirely new, one piece, type of boot last??

I am on the verge of atttempting to build some of these cavelry looking boots but I think I am just a little bit short of having a complete plan.


Oh yes Brandon, I figured how to make a picture posting but the second pic, was still too large after turning the camera to the smallest pixel setting. Is there a way to shrink them down a bit more to accomadate the conventional posting??

Thank you, Larry Peterson

Larry,

Sadly I cannot see the photos from my home computer, but I'm assuming they are boot-trees. Yes, tall leg boots need to have the legs "treed" into shape, and also up to full measurements in some cases, after the boot is completely made. The foot portion of the uppers are lasted on low boot lasts, no higher in most cases than as shoe last, but with very different architecture--higher instep, fuller sides at the back, etc. During the lasting and making, the boot leg is empty, just folded to the side out of the way if you work under the stirrup (strap) on your left thigh while seated. After the boot is built and the last slipped, the leg is a bit shapeless and saggy. So, you moisten (in most cases) the leg; slip the boot-tree in, and insert one or more "keys" (the center wedge-shaped parts) to put the leather under some tension. Then you burnish, polish, or smooth the legs with the tree inside and let them stand until dry.

There are two basic types of boot-trees: 1) "fitting trees" that bootmakers use to shape the legs, which are usually solid hardwood (very heavy!), with a set of three "keys" for adjusting the sizes (bound with iron on the ends for hammering them in), and extra generic feet pieces in various shapes/sizes, or sometimes "keys" plus various internal mechanical crank systems to expand the boot tree where you want; 2) "keeping trees" that customers use to keep their boots on to preserve the shape, and for the occasional re-dressing of the legs, burnishing wrinkles out, etc. These are often soft woods, hollow to make them lighter-weight, and only have the one "key" and foot to fit that one boot/customer. These are not satisfactory substitutes for fitting trees, as they are easily damaged and not adjustable enough to produce a wide range of leg fittings. None the less, they are better than nothing

Larry
I'm the responsible for those boot lasts you mention.
I make ridingboots as a hobby, just for me and a few more. Those are my lasts. It's very unusual that riding boots lasts are made in this way, since the combination of separate feet and legs forms would cover a wide range of fittings. Those ones fit only my feet and legs, I think.
Also, lasting with the full leg last is not the most confortable work to do. It´s heavy to move. But I think that the boot is better shaped than in the usual 2 steps lasting method described by Al.

Angel,

Ah, so it was your boot trees Larry was talking about. No offense I hope. If you're having good results making the entire boot over a boot tree, rather and a last and treeing it later, it is rather unorthodox, but "whatever works". I sure wouldn't want to wrestle with a treed boot strapped to my thigh for inseaming and sole stitching, etc.

Al,
Offense? No way!
I know it's unortodox and also tedious to work with the full last. But I like the final results.
And I can't compare this method with a "normal" one, since I´ve never tried it.

Angel,

I'm glad to hear that. And, as you're only making a limited range of boots to fit yourself mostly, it makes perfect sense. If you were making boots for anyone/everyone who walked through the door, with all their varieties of feet, I guess then you'd find it more practical to have low lasts in all those sizes to take care of the foot-portion of the boot, and then fewer trees to bring the legs up to girth.

Shank/filler questions. Here is a drawing of a cross section of a heel. The blue is the shank, the red is leather shank cover/filler. Is it desireable to skive the leather filler over the shank to make it level, or closer to level with the lasting margins of the upper? Or should the area between the shank and the lasting margins be prefilled level with the shank? (Or am I doing this completely wrong? )


Also, I'm interested in opinions on extending the shank cover all the way down the insole to use it as filler between the lasting margins of the whole bottom of the shoe. I did this with veg tan belly on one pair of shoes.

Is there some reason it's better to do the shank cover/filler up to the ball of the last and then use a different kind of filler for the forefoot area? If so, would 1/8" Cloud be OK for the forefoot, or would it be too soft or not durable enough? Any other suggestions for filler? (Because my lasts are flat from side to side, I definitely have to use a filler.) Thanks.

Jenny

Jenny,

I am still at the student level, however, I do make about 4 pair of boots per month. I like to cover the shank and even raise it up to give the boot that "studly look" as the heel is shaped around the shank raised area one layer at a time. I skive the raised part off the heel pieces until I have achieved the flat surface to develope the height and then a hard rubber cap piece. This is the look I like for a cowboy boot, and maybe a western boot style or the "look" that I particularlly like. I use a flattened 40d nail about half the time and the steel flat shank the other half. The 40d nail doesn't need as much build up to achieve the "lowrider shank look." I then peg both sides of the sole through the shank area, even when I use the 3/4 bottom welt. It's just the cowboy way. I have used both bark tan and latigo/re-tan for shank and insole covering.

It sounds like you may be trying to achieve a more stylish look on bottom of your project. I do skive the edges of the shank cover, just opposite of what you were considering when trying to achieve a more flat sole look.

The bottom line for me is that "when I'm robbing a train, I will rob it anyway i want to." You make some of the most beautiful boots I have ever laid eyes on. As a "National Treasure" I would think you can also do it any way you want to. I am refering to making your shoes, not robbing trains!

Best wishes, Larry Peterson

Larry, thanks. But you must have me mixed up with Lisa Sorrell! I merely make relatively primitive shoes!

Jenny

Larry,

How long before and how many boots before you would consider yourself, no longer a student bootmaker? Your boots are wonderful. I guess the learning never really ends until the bank robbers get caught.
Geri

Jenny Fleishman,

Oops, sorry!!! I apoligise for the mix-up. Duhaa.

Geraldine, I have found that boot making is like pealing an onion, layer under layer. You can't see the next layer until you remove the present one. It seems like after you get good at one technique, another item becomes the targeted goal and challange. I have been concentrating on the bottoming of the insole. Cutting the "rabbit or grove" and then experimenting with the slash or cut to create the holdfast. This is crucial if you want to have a good bottom welt stitching. Too narrow and they will tear. Too wide and you work a lot harder to get the awl through. The rabbit or cut around the outer edge determines where the stitches will be. I hate it when the bottom welt to the holdfast stitches are visable. The edge of the outsole has to be rounded just the right amount to give the vamp leather that smooth curve look.

There are a few "giants" who have totally mastered all of these skills to insure function and style. I am just not there yet. D.W. Frommer and Jake Dobbins both display these total talents in their work. There are others. Luchesse made fancy boots but to me the toes are much too long and he used gimicks to addorn his boots. D.W. and Jake Dobbins both see the style and look and yet make a perfectly constructed boot. After they are dead for a few years I predict that the boot world will be able to see and appreciate their great achivements.

To answer your question, I hope that I can start to approach this level of excellency in 5 or 6 years of continious boot making.

When I construct a boot, I may see something,but be too far into the construction to make a change. I use this "see something" on the next pair and hope it does what I want it to do.

If circumstances would permit, I would like to apprentice to one of these great boot makers for 3 or 4 years at my oun expense. Unfortunatly, this is impossible in my circumstances. The next best thing is to read, listen, observe, and make a lot of boots.

I am also aging and at age 64 I can only do so much for so long. The "Laws of Deminishing Returns" dictate that I may not have years to focus on each single detail for months. This can lead to mediocrity. The ideal is to start young enough to develope each and every single talent that goes into creating the "Journeyman" level boot. I do love the journey! Geri, I have probably told you more than you wanted to know, but please forgive an old fat man that is just trying to get through another day doing what I love to do.

Best wishes, Larry Peterson

Chuck,

I guess we don't have a thread for foxings. I looked all over and this seems as good a place as any to post this. The other forum for boot makers is sin foxing thread as well!

So here are my Paul Bond boots upon which I installed pink kidskin foxings with white butterfly inlays to match the general motif of the existing boots.


She had serious bunyons develope after her wedding in these and was not able to wear them. The foxings, especially the wing tip section, inabled her to wear them after I'd stretched the heck out of them without it looking so obvious.

As I said, I'll do a little photo demo next month.

Paul

Paul,

Very nice. Good looking boots to start with. Now I see the inlays in the foxing. Even matching the leather for a job like this would be a problem. If that is patcher stitching, it looks real good. I am sure Paul Bond would be pleased. Looking forward to your photo demo.

Chuck

Friends,

The time has come to start on an inlay. Nothing too fancy! As I waller around in my sea of ignorance I find that I am in need of counsel.

Would soneone or anyone take a moment and share what size needle and what size thread works best for this delicate process. I watched an eye surgen sew a retina back togather after replacing the lenze in the eye of his patient. It appears like the inlay must be stitched with this same kind of precission. I have collected several close up pictures of other folk's work and it appears to be mighty close and delicate work.

Paul Krause posted two fine pictures using "FAUXING" techniques.

Please don't hesitate to share whatever intelligence you have acquired in this subject and I will wait patiently in my pit of ignorance to receive further light and knowledge on inlay.

Thank you for tolerating me.

Larry Peterson

You may get differing opinions/advice depending on who you ask but there are some basic pointers that, if you take the time, can improve not only your inlay work but many other aspects of your work. My comments are general. I've never seen a picture of your inlay work to date...or if I have I don't remember it well enough to have a comment specifically.

First you need to choose firm leather for your background. Some leathers...notably kidskin and goat and some water buffalo and sometime too soft to do clean work. But choosing firm leathers (up to a point) should be on your list of priorities anyway--for all parts of the boot.

Second you need to choose a thin and firm leather for your inlay leather. Some kidskins, goat and kangaroo are all suitable. Note that kidskin and goat can be either too soft or just right...depending on how it is tanned and handled.

Third, you need to buy a very narrow french skive (Ron's Tools sells one that they have named after me because I contributed a few ideas to the way they are made).

Fourth, you need to make and learn to use a cutting needle...in a 31 class Singer flatbed (another purchase if you don't have one).

When you get a pattern drawn out, you make sure that it is on a white typing paper or something similar. We just use laser printer paper.

Trim the pattern paper fairly close to the pattern. And then cement it to the leather you want to cut out. Don't say I didn't warn you if I tell you that you need to test the cement on the leather to make sure that it will come off clean when you are done cutting. We use rubber cement in most circumstances but not all.

When the pattern is in place you can try to cut it out with a very sharp clicker knife. But the better way, in my opinion (and hey!!it actually saves time and work!!) is to stack several tops together with a small amount of strategically place cement and cut the pattern with a cutting needle. If the leather is firm enough and thin enough you can actually cut four layers all at once.

A cutting needle is a, say, size 14 needle broken off just long enough to barely break the plane of the needle plate. It is then sharpened from both sides to create a tiny blade. Used in an 31 class machine set to nearly zero stitch length, it will cut and pivot and follow the tiniest detail...and do all this straight down.

Once the pattern is cut out, the plug is saved. It can be mounted grainside down on a piece of folder stock or a piece of glass with rubber cement again....for skiving.

the top must be cemented grainside down to a piece of galss or the folder stock. In this case you do not need to cement more than a little ways beyond the cut edge. Cementing simply anchors that edge to make skiving easier and more accurate.

The flesh-side edges of both the top and the plug can...should...be given an very narrow skive with the french skive. This is about a thirty-secondth of an inch wide--or more or less depending on the thickness of the leather. On the top, the most important part here is that the edge have full thickness at roughly the same distance from the edge as your first line of stitching will be. From there it should be skived to very nearly a feather. The same process is done on the plug.

The inlay leather is cut...larger than the cut out...and the edges given a good full skive. This piece is cemented to fleshside of the top and the plug is positioned so that it fits back in the space from which it came but behind the inlay leather. It, too, is cemented in place and hammered solidly.

The lining is mounted and using a size 12 round point needle, one line (preferably) of small stitches are run around the periphery of the inlay cutout...on the grainside of the top. Some will add another line. I think that is over-kill and often makes a good job look clumsy. Some will add another line inside the cutout. Same objection.

Done correctly everything should come back to the original level and you should be able to close your eyes and run you fingers over the inlay and feel almost nothing except the thread standing proud. The same can/should be said of inlay done on wood or metal.

If your fingers fall into a depression...a sunken spot--what I call a "buffalo wallow"...and you can feel the edges of the cut out, you're doing it different than I would.

I don't know what "FAUXING" is, but I'm sure Paul can answer that.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

D.W.,

Thank you! I have never tried an inlay before but I will follow your instructions to the letter. You ststed that a #12 roundpoint needle is satisfactory. Would ypou suggest any particular size of thread? I use #46 thread for the top patterns. Is this also adaquit for inlays?

I do have a 31 class flat bed singer and even though I have never used a "cutting needle" I understand the principle and will proceed to make the set-up.

Thank you again for the direction.

Sincerely, Larry Peterson

Larry,

No, think that with a size 12 needle you need a size 33 thread. Sorry I didn't mention that. You could use a size 14 needle and a size 46 thread but it's a bit coarse for inlay work. I use a round point needle for inlay because sometimes I'm stitching deep into a narrow point of leather and a leather point needle will often split the point of leather at the very tip or deflect to the edge. Neither is good.

BTW, another thing I didn't mention...the top or the stack of tops, needs to be rubber cemented to a piece of folder stock before you start cutting. This gives a clean cut all the way through and out the fleshside of the top. No loose fibers.

Also, make sure the blade of your cutting needle is as perfectly in-line with the direction of stitching (line of dance) as possible before you start cutting. This may take a little fussing but it is worthy it. Perfectly aligned equals smooth cut. Unaligned equals tiny "jaggies" in the cut. When the needle is aligned correctly the machine will cut a smooth line in a piece of folder stock--one cut slightly overlapping the last...you follow?

We use a lot of folder stock.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Larry:

A few years ago on this colloquy Jake Dobbins did a pictorial guide to doing inlays. See it here: The Crispin Colloquy: Open Forum: Techniques, Crans and Visualizations: Top patterns/stitching: archive 76-100.

I think it will do a great job in supplementing what DW has written above.

Look forward to seeing pictures of the completed effort.

Lance