The Crispin Colloquy

Jenny

Thanks for the websites. I'll be using one

CW

Gladstone Tools web site seems to be unavailable, either temporarily or permanently.
The items I purchased from them can also be purchased here:

http://www.mannyswoodworkersplace.com/cacodi.html


Jenny

Sale price on splitting machine! Just got the Thursday special e-mail from Siegel of California, and they have a splitting machine on sale for what appears to be a huge discount (unless the list price is inflated). Its the Osborne TL86 with a six inch blade. I'd be happy to forward the e-mail to anyone who'd like to see it.

Jenny

Skiving help needed!...I started working on my fitter shoe yesterday, skiving the edges of the various upper pieces. I'm having some glitches, though.

First, I planned on using my French edger, only to find that the cutting edge seems to be dull. And of course I don't know how to sharpen it. So I switched to a Safety Beveler, which, in case anyone hasn't seen one (which I doubt!), is a tool that holds a razor blade in a curve. This worked fairly well, but the blades get dull REALLY fast. Also, I had some trouble controlling the depth, which I'm sure is at least partly due to inexperience.

Then, when I tried to skive the top grain off of the 2/3 oz veg tan pieces for the toe box and counter, the Safetly Beveler didn't work well (because of the curve, I cut right through instead of skimming off the top surface). So I ended up using some very coarse sandpaper and just scratching up the surface, hoping the breaks in the top grain would keep the leather from drawing in as I have seen described in other posts here. Looks pretty raw, I'm afraid!

So, my question is, what are people's favorite skiving tools? I have read previous posts about broken glass, which seems like a whole art in itself.

In the Euro International catalog there are two skiving knives that have bent blades. Are these a good bet?

For getting the top grain off the toe box and counter, Is there any other kind of hand tool that works, or is glass it? With the 2/3 oz leather I'm afraid of going all the way through it, as I did last night. I was doing the skiving with the leather dry. Would it be easier damp or wet?

Sharpening the French Edger...advice?

Also, would Al Stohlman's Leathercraft Tools book be a good resource for tool sharpening instructions?

Thanks.

Jenny

Jenny,

As I understand them, French edgers aren't made for the type of skiving you are probably doing.

The safety beveler- what color is the metal of the handle? The new ones that are "silver" are terrible. Some time probably last year or before, Osborne changed the metal and/or the die, now they are almost useless- bad skives, and the blades dull three times faster.

If you can find a tina type knife and learn how to sharpen them you would be better off. The site that Robert keeps on posting is probably the most likely candidate for you.

Erick

French edgers can be made to skive fairly wide swaths. But they are hard to sharpen and need a fairly experienced hand to make them "sing." They can be used on soft leather but find their best application on hard veg tans such as soiling or insoling. Wetting the leather and letting it sit for a few minutes can help in this instance.

And, as can be said about any tool...the cheaper it is the less you can rely upon it. My old McMillan french edgers are good, my one contemporary Osbourne is adequate but my set of Ron's Tools french edgers are absolutely superlative--they take and hold an edge like no others. One of the best investments I ever made.

I have nothing good to say about the little...excuse me...rinky-dink tool (Safety Beveler) that Tandy sell as a skiving tool. I've never met or known anyone that was truly good with one. As Erick said a Tina knife would be the best option but they do take time to master as well as mastering the art of sharpening. Which, of course, is the reason that people resort to the Safety Beveler. But if you ever learn to sharpen a knife...any knife not just a Tina...so that it is not just razor sharp but "scary sharp," you'll have advanced your skills and your technique by an order of magnitude. And the same can be said for learning to skive with a Tina knife. Of course...again...this is an objective that can never be realized as long a one relies on bent razor blades.

McPhereson's in Seattle can order you a Tina knife from Goetz in Goppingen Germany. And if you can find a Berg "fish" knife, it is terrific steel and will work great for pull skiving. I got several out of...I can't remember the name of the outfit, but they are a supplier of tools and shoe repair materials (cements, etc) out of LA.

One of the absolutely critical factors in learning to skive and achieving top shelf results...in my opinion...is seeing the edge of your blade--its entire length--and seeing the exact point where the edge is cutting the leather.

As for skiving from the grain side...I almost never do it. Not on toe stiffeners...even thin 2/3 ounce ones, much less the 6 iron soling leather ones I use in boots. Same goes for the 10-11 iron heel stiffeners. I do break up the grainside surface with 100 grit sandpaper and a curved cabinet or shoemakers scraper...again, properly sharpened...would probably work to take off that thin layer...if you are really determined to do that. I have never seen a toe box or counter curl...perhaps this is related more to the quality of the leather we have available to us more than the truth or falsity of the ancient wisdom, I don't know, but over three plus decades I've never had a problem.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW, is this the knife you are refering to?

http://www.macphersonleather.com/sshydeduttina.htm

Is it a "flexible" knife? If so, I have something similar that came with my Wilson Gracey video tapes. During my training week, we tried to sharpen the knife per the instructions, and were not very successful.(Which is not to say it's not a wonderful tool if used right, of course!)

What is a shoemaker's scraper?

The Safety Beveler I have is dark grey or black.

Jenny

Jenny,

That knife is probably OK. But it really depends upon whether you want to pull skive (I'm assuming you do) or push skive (my preferance). In any case, Tina makes four knives that are offered in the Goetz catalog...they all look similar but there are some differences.

I like the 796 632-00 and -10...sometimes referred to as the "Tina 270." It comes in a left and right handed version. If you are pull skiving with your right hand you'd want the 00 (rechts/right); if you are pull skiving with your left hand you'd want the 10 (links/left). If you want to push skive with your right hand you'd want the 10 (or lefthanded)

I also like Tina's 796 608-xx Scharfmesser also comes in left and right--00 and 10 respectively. It's smaller and might be better for a woman's hand.

None of these knives are flexible. They are all 10-11 inches long and curved tip to butt. The 270's used to be curved side to side, as well...as if they were hollow ground.

You will have to order them from McPherson.

You might also want to look at "paring knives" from Woodware Repetitions Ltd. This oufit took over when Barnsley went toes up and still carries some of the "necessaries." But I haven't kept up with their inventory and so forth, having pretty much gotten everything I needed before Barnsley and Sons went out of business.

Barnsley used to carry a line of scrapers--very similar in some ways, and in function, to a very thick cabinet scraper, but sharpened just a little differently. Frankly, I prefer the cabinet scrapers I bought through Lee Valley (I think it was) although I did reshape them. Scrapers work the same as a piece of glass but they can be much sharper and hold their edge longer.

Barnsley also used to offer a very flexible knife they called a "veneer" knife. I think it was pretty much the same as the old orange handled Hyde knife with the really flexible blade. Lots of folks use these...pull skiving of course...but like you said they can be hard to sharpen...especially the newer ones (green handle).

I never got along with flexible bladed skiving knives. Along with being able to see the blade, I think you have to be able to depend upon the blade to control it. A firm wrist and a steady angle will give you the cleanest and most consistant cut, in my opinion. A flexible blade has its advantages but it is more difficult to control...again, in my opinion, only.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

PS...

If you talk to McPhersons...and especially if you order from him (a good source for Blau Ring lemonwood pegs) be sure to ask for a Goetz catalog--they have an English version, too.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW, thanks. I'll call them tomorrow.

Why do you prefer push skiving to pull skiving? Also, do you do it on a flat surface such as a piece of marble or wood, or something else?

Jenny

Jenny,

I push skive because I was taught that way. I can pull skive...pretty well, actually...but I feel more comfortable *pushing* a "scary sharp" knife away from me than pulling it towards portions of my anatomy that I have grown inordinately fond of over the last 60 years. More to the point, the position of my hands and the way I need to anchor a piece of leather when pull skiving, doesn't afford me the kind of control that I like.

Beyond that, I skive on a rounded surface--a 1951 Chevy pickup side corner window, in fact, although there are other, more commonplace alternatives--and push skiving on such a surface is a far more natural and controllable process.

As a bonus, I can manipulate the edge that I'm skiving so that my point of contact is almost a point rather than a swath. If you understand the concept of tangents...the knife is tangent to the curve of the "skiving dome". This is almost not possible pulling on a flat surface. And because the Tina 270 left is also curved, the point of cut is further narrowed.

But wait! There's more!! Because I'm skiving on a curved surface, the scraps slide down the dome and out of the way. There's nothing worse than skiving along and unbeknownst to you there's a crumb--a tiny, minute, insignificant, *&#@&!!! of leather--under your edge and suddenly...before the signal can go from your eye to the brain (if you've got a sharp knife)...you've got a hole in the leather, not a nicely tapered edge.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Is there any possibility these knives, particularly B, would work for skiving?

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=31077&cat=1,51222&ap=1

Jenny

Jenny,

There used to be an old saying...something to the effect that all you need to make a pair of shoes is a knife and a fork. Like the knife in question, that advice cuts two ways--it illustrates how small and how simple a kit you really need and it also implies that if you're desperate enough you can make dern near anything work.

Personally, I think the handle is the big problem with the knife you've linked to. I like to work with nothing but a bare blade when I'm skiving...I feel I have better control of the angle of the blade and if need be, I can get my knuckles lower.

Truth to tell, however, it's not the shape of the blade or the brand name...all those things are just personal preference and you, or someone else, might very well have, or develop, top-notch skills and techniques using tools that I wouldn't touch. There's no right or wrong in that regard.

The real issue centers around the basic mechanics of skiving--seeing the blade, the angle of the blade the sharpness of the blade the flexibility of the blade--and what you are trying to achieve. I don't do as much skiving as I used to...not only do I have two skiving machines but my wife does much of the assembly work now. But when I was doing it all and doing the skiving by hand, I used to be able to reliably skive a very even half inch wide taper to an absolute feather, with no noticeable variance in width or taper around a very complex curve...such as a vamp for derby style shoe boot. Oh, and all in one go-round, too! No brag...this is something any good shoe/bootmaker worth his salt can probably do.

But it all relies on sharpening and focus and the proper tools.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC



(Message edited by dw on March 27, 2006)

G'day Jenny, DW,
My 10c worth. In an old shoemakers toolkit I picked up some years ago, there was an old Sheffield kitchen knife that had been turned into a skiver. Now I'll see if I can explain all this clearly.
It has a round handle rather like the Frosts knives above, though longer and gentler. The blade is ground down (blunt) on the edge side,starting at the handle, for about 3/4 of it's length, leaving the end of the blade broad. This has been ground at right angles to the blade into a cutting edge. The blade has some flex to it which enables you to get the edge parallel to the surface of the leather, if you wish ,for very fine work on, say kangaroo, but will still do full depth skiving on 4.5mm.
The nice thing about the round handle is that you can use it as your angle set for sharpening.
This will be old hat for you DW. Just putting this in for those find sharpening a chore.
Place some 400grit (for preliminary grinding in) 'wet & dry' carborundum paper on a flat surface. Put the handle down on the surface next to the paper and the end of the blade flat on the 400. Once that side is perfectly flat flip over and repeat. Next is 800,1200,2000 (for ongoing sharpening I have found that the 2000 is quite sufficient). I was recently given a piece of 6000grit cloth abrasive.It puts a mirror finish on. The final sharpening, whether 2000 or 6000, I do by trailing the edge down the paper, first one side then the other 10 times or so still with the handle resting on the flat surface.
I finish by stropping the edge (trailing, trailing, trailing) on my flat open palm.

*I accept no responsability for anyone opening up their hand, getting several stitches, and loosing a week or so's work time, doing this *
Feel free to use a regular strop, or a piece of sole leather stuck down to a board with liquid brass polish on it, still trailing the edge.The palm stropping is just something I was told a few years ago (couldn't see how it would work), tried it and have been impressed with the results. It will take the finest 'wire' edge off the blade. Maybe it works partly by leaving a fine touch of oil on the blade to lubricate it through the leather. Dunno; never had them go rusty.

Anyway, that's my bit. Hope it helps.
Cheers
Duncan

Jenny,

It is fun to watch another beginner go through all the same struggles. You are asking excellent questions and the answers are helpful to all of us.

My skiving still looks more like scraping a hog than cutting leather. After trying Hyde knives, safety skivers, and home made knives similar to the Tina, I have found the ordinary hardware store utility knives with the extendable break off blades (Thanks to Tex Robin) works about as well as anything (Probably want to wear safety glasses in case it breaks,but have not had that problem). You can extend the blade to get what ever stiffness you want. I use one of those ceramic knife sharpeners which hold two stones in a "V" to touch up the edge. Replace the blade when it gets hard to sharpen. The blade is too wide for tight places like around tongues and I am still struggling with that. Maybe one of the smaller utility knives. Skiving is done on a one gallon glass cider jug (Thanks to DW) with wood blocks glued on the bottom to keep it from rolling. "Gorilla" glue seems to work better than epoxy to hold the wood blocks to the glass.

Thin leather skiving (inlays, piping, etc) is done with a french knife with the leather rubber cemented to a flat piece of glass (Thanks to Jake Dobbins). I sharpen the french knife on a hard felt wheel on an electric grinder from my wood carving days. Be careful with this; edge always down or it will fling it across the room and stick in something, maybe you. I use a green chrome compound on the wheel but rouge would probably work. The same technique works for knives but again; Be Careful.

I know I am repeating what has been said before but thanks to everyone for the help.

Chuck Deats

Thought it might help to post some photos:

The first photo is of a scrap vamp push skived, by hand, with Tina knives on a skiving dome. The second photo is the same leather and another scrap skived with a Fortuna skiving machine (in pretty good shape and pretty sharp). Even after machine skiving the edge needed to be cleaned up some (as did the hand skived vamp).



just another

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW, talked to someone at MacPherson today (Laurie) and they have a "Dutch Tina" knife in stock for $14.95 that she says appears almost identical to the ones you have. However, it does not come in both a right and a left. She thinks it is a righthanded one.

She can get the Goetz ones, but they only order from Goetz about every three months, and it'll be a couple months before they order again. If I like the "Dutch Tina" and it's for righthanded pull skiving, I may later order a lefthanded Goetz one to try push skiving...

If anyone else has a different favorite skiving tool that hasn't been mentioned, please post!

Duncan, I have some of those extendable break-off blade utility knives from the dollar store. Will give them a try.

Jenny

Chuck and Duncan...I mean, Chuck!, thanks for the utility knife tip, and Duncan for the sharpening advice.

Duncan, I'd love to see a photo of your Sheffield kitchen knife/skiver if have an opportunity to post it. Maybe it's just my own inability to visualize, but pictures speak a thousand words, or however that saying goes!

Jenny

Found more skiving tools online...Here are some similar to those DW described and posted a photo of above...They come in both right and left handed versions (the English paring knife) at a reasonable price, although I'm not sure about the width of the blade...might be somewhat wider than DWs:

http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI D=18112

If you have money to burn, here are some others on the same site:

http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI D=26041

Jenny

I scanned what ya'll wrote. no matter what style you use, there is going to be a period when you destroy leather and skin. I shived two shoe counters every day to start with. Loose shin is going to tease you for a while.

We pull shive with the the tina style knife. I have a tina and don't use it because I also have two berg knives.

The brit have knives that are sharpened on both sides, but they are not flat(looking at the end) like the tina style.

You can make a handle for is by putting a piece of leather around it. It fits in your hand this way and the blade can be pulled into the "handle-wrap"

You can also file it down so you have a lip knife.

If you want to use the pull shiv method make sure you keep one side of the knife VERY flat. Use a file to keep the other side at a flat angle. If it starts to round then you will have problems. I have a peice of wood that has a strap cemented to it. On one side there is a grinding/seating compound glued to it and on the other side the compound is mixed with leather grease to make a paste. the paste has to dry over night.

A leather strap handing from your work bench helps to. You will have to use the file alot with a tina. The metal is soft.

Hope all this helps
CW

I have three Bergs and about six Tinas...most of them the 270 left. All these knives are curved lengthwise and "crosswise." I virtually never sharpen the bottom side of the blade. But that said, they are none of them really flat on the bottom. It's interesting that you are filing them flat...I've never thought about doing that--they came from the factory slightly round and I've never had any problems leaving them like that. But I push skive and that may make a difference.

I think the real key here is sharpening. Almost any knife will work (one way or the other) if it is truly sharp. A lot of people feel the edge of a blade with their thumb and if they get any sense at all that they might cut themselves, they call it sharp. But I've never found that to be a good indicator of sharpness for anything other than whittling twigs.

There are two reliable indicators of sharpness--the first is visual and the second ...well, the second can be a little intimidating; take a knife that has been sharpened and hold it in the light so that you can sight along the blade. If you see nothing at all along the edge, the blade *might* be sharp. Any gleams, or sparkles...any light reflected along that edge equals dull.

The second test is the one I use the most...point your thumb at the floor so that the surface of your thumbnail is at an angle like this: "\" Hold the sharpened blade no more than half an inch above the thumbnail, edge down. Allow the blade to fall onto the nail. If the edge of the knife catches on the thumbnail and does not slide off...that's sharp. If the knife does not catch, it's dull...period. And if the knife cuts the end of your thumb off ...you don't need any advice from anyone about sharpening knives.

I used to cut out components--vamps and the like (technically, it's called "clicking" )--using exacto knives and various other utility knives with replaceable blades. But even exchanging blades several times during a job, they were never...right out of the package...as sharp as I can sharpen a good blade made of good steel. (Truth to tell, it's even hard to sharpen a replaceable blade.)

Clicking vamps or tops out of a piece of leather requires a sharp blade if you want any kind of precision. If you can hear tiny crackling sounds as the blade goes through the leather, the fibers are being broken, not cut...a sure sign the blade is not sharp--a truly sharp blade is nearly silent. But as sharp as a clicker knife must be, a skiving knife must be sharper.

How to get there is another matter.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I use a Don Carlos straight for skiving and I am a puller not a pusher. I guess it's what you get used to. I will push a little when the tip gets dull. As far as the exacto blades... they will last along time and you can sharpen them. Just take them over to your buffing wheel and hit them a little on each side, and bingo, sharp blade. You can do that until the steel starts to round off on the edge. Throw it away and get a fresh one. I started hitting the new ones on the wheel before I even use them.
That said, I would advise anyone in this trade to spend the time necessary to learn to sharpen ALL of your tools correctly before taking the exacto route.

Good advice, Jim.

I learned to sharpen the "old fashioned" way...grindstone (or finisher) then on to a series of flat stones--washita, arkansas and black arkansas. Finishing on a strop or a piece of leather loaded with tripoli or rouge. Then I tried a felt, and subsequently a leather, wheel loaded with triploi or rouge. No doubt about it that was slick and it sure sped things up.

One day I saw a guy at the Sheridan Leather show using a RazorSharp System. My first impression was that it was a gimmick, and I passed it by. But a year or two later I had heard enough good things that when Jerimiah Watt recommended it ("instant razor," he said) I tried one. I've been using it for maybe ten years now and it's the best thing since sliced bread.

But that said, a person can ruin a knife in a big hurry with the RazorSharp if you don't know what you are doing. Understanding blades, edges and how to sharpen, is essential in this business and almost a prerequisite of using a system like the RazorSharp.

When it comes to exactos and such, well, my experience is different than yours. They're OK...in a pinch. I have more than a half dozen clicker knives with the extension blades scattered around the shop. Some are British, some are German, some are antiques. One handle is even running old BSMC blades (excellent, excellent steel) and I can sharpen them better than the exacto blades and they will hold that edge longer. Now that's just me...if a feller is convinced that a tool won't work, it probably won't--at least for him. That probably describes my situation as well as anything. And what works for me may not work for someone else. But I love tools...especially old tools that have seen many pairs of hands and felt the currents of creativity and dedication flowing through them. I guess I don't have much use for "disposables" and the compromises we have to make to use them. Compromises like never learning to properly sharpen a knife or even just lowering the bar for what really, and truly, is sharp.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I am awaiting the arrivial of my "Dutch Tina" knife. Hopefully it should come by Tuesday. DW, I can't quite picture what you describe about your Tina knife being curved in various directions. From the photos you sent me from the catalog, they looked flat. I guess when I receive mine it will become clear!

I've also ordered a 7 minute video about tool sharpening.

I have a 3 inch bench grinder that I am hoping to adapt to take the wide sanding wheel that I posted a link to earlier, as well as various sanding, buffing wheels. It came with stone wheels, which I don't plan on using. Trouble is, the arbors are 10mm, and I'm hoping with the help of my local helpful hardware man to figure out what parts can be used to extend the arbors, add a chuck, etc. The RPMs are 0 to 10,000, but when you start it, it is going pretty fast (but I don't know how fast), and I'm concerned that it may be going faster than what I gather is the recommended 1,500 to 1,750 RPMs for buffing etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong on recommended speeds!

I've been looking for alternatives, and the best one I've come across is this Baldor:

Specs:
http://www.baldor.com/products/specs.asp?1=1&catalog=114&product=Grinders%2FBuff ers&family=Buffers%7Cvw%5FGrindBuff%5FBuffers

Photo:
http://www.baldor.com/products/detail.asp?1=1&catalog=114&product=Grinders%2FBuf fers&family=Buffers%7Cvw%5FGrindBuff%5FBuffers

Don't know if the 1/4 horsepower is adequate.

Basically, I'm looking for a small grinder/buffer, that I can attach various wheels to, to use for sanding, sharpening and buffing, 115 volt, with appropriate RPMs.

I've looked at Sani-Grinders on-line, but gather you can't really put a variety of wheels on them.

If anyone knows of anything else, or has opinions on the Baldor grinder above, I'd appreciate any input!

Jenny

Jenny,

Some are flat. The Bergs are all "dished", however...at least all mine are. Older Tina 270's are all cross-section curved, but I saw a newer one a couple of years back that was flat.

Maybe it makes a difference, maybe it doesn't...maybe it's just what you're used to. I wouldn't use a flat blade if I could help it--just because of the angle of attack and the controllability.

As for the Baldor...great products, my 2hp finisher motor is a Baldor. But for buffing, or better yet the RazorSharp system (I don't have any vested interest...don't even own stock), a cheap Sears buffer/grinder would be more than adequate and cost you a lot less...a heck of a lot less.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC