The Crispin Colloquy

Marcell,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting.

I'm sure there are many of us interested in Hungarian shoemakers tradition.

Six generations! Wow! I'm also sure many of us would be interested to hear what that is like. Your observations and stories that have been passed down would be of interest too.

We look forward to hearing from you again.

Paul

Marcell,

Welcome! Glad to have you aboard. If you have any questions about how to use the forum, don't hesitate to ask. I can help.

Emmett

Marcell,
Welcome again and looking forward to what ever you bring to the table.

Ed

Marcell,

Welcome to the colloquy, great to have another shoemaker here. Nice website you have. I tried an on-line translation but that's not going anywhere, I'll wait patiently for the English version. The work on there looks great.

Rob

Thanks for the warm welcome. Actually I made the website myself, and this is just kind of a draft. I'm planning to make a better soon (and this time, as I promised, with English too). The text that's on the site is mainly about shoemaking, and the characteristics of the types of shoes, so nothing new for professional shoemakers. BTW I would like to know how many shoemakers are here?
I also make some videos - you can find it on Tim's website or in youtube (search: how to make a shoe)

Rob, Tim...the photo of the back of my shoe was to show the problem I am trying to correct on the lasts now. The bottom of the last curved in too much around the heel, which caused the exact problem you mentioned above when I added the spacer. So I have widened it with more Liquid Last.

I am also now trying to adjust the treadline backwards--on the bottom, contrary to much advice here!

The wrinkles behind the treadline I can't quite figure out. I think it is partly the difficulty I am having maintaining the toe spring when the shoe is on my foot, which I suspect is partly because my lasts are straight across from side to side and do not curve up at the edges. However, I choose to do that for comfort.

The reason I think this may be the cause of the loss of toe spring...consider if you cut a hollow rubber ball in half, and try to turn the half inside out. It will resist, because of the curves. Take a flat piece of paper, and you can bend it any which way you want.

Rob, the lasts are indeed the umpteenth version of the ones I had at the meeting last year. One of the major changes is narrowing the cone in the heel area to grip the heel better.

Re making the last bottom straight across from side to side:
At the ball of the foot this is because I have had pain in my forefoot from wearing shoes that I believe was caused by the curve of the shoe across the treadline disagreeing with my jointline. Solution--eliminate the curve.

My lasts are also flat across the heel. While I have realized that if you are NOT using an orthotic, having a curved heel footbed must stabilize the position of the heel inside the shoe (among other benefits), I have had some problems trying to use orthotics in shoes in the past (in addition to pain at the topline). I found that the contours of the shoe's insole changed the fit of the orthotic significantly. My solution (remains to be seen if it works!) is to remove as much of the contour of the shoe's insole as possible, to eliminate distortion of the orthotic when it is put in the shoe.

However, note that with all my "solutions" I still don't have a pair of shoes I can wear

Jenny

Marcell,

Excellent Video. Since youtube occasionally cleans up it's archives it may be nice to talk to DW about getting the video's on the Colloquy.
It will also keep me from spending all day on youtube going from one video to the next.
What type of cement do you use for the counters and toe box?
You seem to dry last but than as the upper is set on the last with a couple of nails you wet the upper? Just water or do you add some alcohol? How long does the upper sit before you fold back the toe to cut the pipes off the toebox (and counter)? Just the time it takes to last the other shoe or overnight?
It's been a long time I've seen anybody do as nice a job lasting with the counter and toebox in place. I've gotten away from that and usually fold back the upper to apply toebox and counter after the upper is set on the last. You make it look easy.
Do you make your own uppers? Is that going to be the next video?
Sorry for all the questions, such a great job you did. Can't wait to see more.

There are more shoemakers here and with time you'll get to see some of them occasionally step out of the shadows. Not sure about any number.

Rob

Jenny,

I suspect once you correct the tread line it will have a positive effect on the wrinkle and likely on the toespring. All the shoes I make have an orthopedic footbed that is flat on the bottom from the medial to lateral ball. Don't have a problem with toespring disappearing. Do you used sidelinings?

With the orthotic you have to find a balance between the removal of insole contours and shaping the orthotic to follow those features. Not as easy as it sounds but it can be done.

Just my

Rob

Dear Rob,

I have already offered my videos to the Colloquy, so soon you can have it from this site.

Cement: it is called 'Hirschkleber'. you can buy 600 gramm for 4-5 USD, but I also use my own recipe. If you are interested I will translate for you - this is an original 100 years method to make paste. (which was actually a secret of each manufacture in that time)

I use simple water (if I can call 'simple' that upper water comes from my very dirty pot ). I use it because it helps to cease the redundant tensions in leather. Anyway, I will keep the upper at least 7-10 days on the last, so I don't need to hurry to dry.

The video is - more or less - as it is. I didn't wait more than what you saw in the video with the toe. BTW it would be impossibile to put the counter after lasting with my uppers - and it has no meaning. Lasting is really easy with it too. And you don't need to cut off the pipes of the counter for goodyear method. You will see why in the next video.

I just design my shoe uppers, but sewing is a different profession here. I promise once I will record it too and put it to youtube. (the next video will be welting, and sewing the sole, the end part: building the heel and finishing)

Thank for your appreciation - I really don't deserve it. I am sure that all the shoemakers can make it this way.

Sorry for my poor English, I hope you could understand everything.

Rob, I have not used side linings. Neither of the video/dvds I have show them being used, so I'm not real familiar with how to make them--what type of leather to use, what area they should cover, etc. I also am still having difficulty with getting the edge of the toe stiffener to blend in, so am concerned that I'd have the same problem with side liners. But I'm willing to try it with more info!

Jenny

Marcell
Great videos! There´s no better way to learn than seeing an expert doing the job.
Hope they will be added to the HCC videos library. They would make an excellent complement to those already sent by Tim and DW.
If you don´t mind, I´d like to know that paste formula you mention.
I´m interested in home made solutions.
Thanks in advance,
Angel

What is the link to these videos?

Angel, the recipe is this:
Take a flour and gluten 1:1 and mix it with water in an old pot and put it to the fire. In the same time take some starch and mix it also with water. wait until the previous mix start to boil (mix countinuosly!) and slowly mix it with the strorch-water mix.
It will get dense in 2 seconds then boil it two more minutes and you are ready. Use it quick - within a few days and keep it in fridge.

Link to the videos:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6LsE4nsEOJk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tqQ9zWxBfg8

Marcell,

First, Welcome. Great Videos and a very nice website. That is the beauty of boots and shoes. They speak a universal language. The quality and craftsmanship shows in your work in any language.

I am looking forward to your participation. And by the way that was the fastest shoe making I have ever seen.

Mark

Mark,

Thank you!

(Fast? Video cut makes wonders...)

Marcell

Marcell,

You did a fine job making that video and the shoes I have just learned to use that Iron you used have it but not knowing it's use,the green is slowly peeling away with folks like you all.Looking forward to more.Another thing looking at you skiving upwards looks more controllable than reading about it.

Ed

Jenny,

The midliners as they are officially called (or so I'm told) help you blend in the edges of the toebox, they fill the "gap" between toebox and counter. If you don't set the counter that far forward they travel across the metatarsal joint and get skived down to nothing to blend in.
Once you adjust your tread line I think using them will have a positive effect on maintaining your toespring.

Take a look at Marcell's video, he uses the midliners. They are normally a piece of chrome tan leather, scrap that you have laying around. Weight proportionate to the upper to make them blend in easier.

Rob

Marcell,

Thanks for the info and the recipe. It's been some time since I worked with Hirschkleber, I remember it to be much thicker.

I would think adding some alcohol to the water mixture would make it get into the leather easier since you only apply it to the grain side, than again as you use the hot iron you probably do not want it to get all that wet.

The reason I generally fold back my upper to put the counter and toebox in has to do with the orthopedic lasts I use. It gives me the chance to "tweak" the upper unto the last just right.

Do not apologize for your English. Mark put it well, calling it a universal language of beautiful shoes and boots. I'm not a native English speaker either and I'm sure it shows in many of my posts. So far I've been able to get my point across pretty well and that's what it's all about.

Rob

Rob - you are right. Hirhsckleber is think, but try to use it with wet brush

Jenny, Rob - I use the midliners to ensure the shoes to keep the good form, and don't let it stretch along - before you use ALWAYS check the elongation direction (just like all the leather, even soles and midsoles). Actualy in the video I used veg tanned leather, but Rob is right - chrome tanned can be better. Skiving must be very smooth and wide.

Ed - I am not sure I understood you well (because of my poor English). I am skiving upwards, because I learnt this way from my masters (and they from their ones.. and so on), I never tried any other technics. It is funny to realise why one technic is practical - thank you for showing me! I hope that on the other video you can also find something like this.

FWIW...I have thinned HirschKleber. In fact, I had several jars that sat around for literally years before I started taking it seriously...the contents in both were nearly dried out--even had cracks. I just poured some water in there and let it sit. The water kind of soaked in and the glue came a long way back to its original form--getting soft and resiliant. After that, I added more water and started stirring it up...unitl I had a slurry. Let it sit overnight and the stuff was good as new.

I don't know what everybody else does about toe caps (broguing) but I use thinned Hirschkeleber (thinner than it is originally) to mount the toe caps prior to stitching. The HirschKleber is, of course, water soluable so it doesn't clog up the perforations. Or, if it does, it can be "washed" out...unlike rubber cement or AP.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW:

Any ideas where to order HirschKleber here in the US?

Thanks,
Lance

Lance,

I think McPheresons in Seattle can get it--they deal with Goetz in Germany. And I'm pretty sure that O. Baltor carries it, too. Might be more expensive at Baltor but he might have it in stock.

I still have two half full jars, so I'm not sure where you would get it currently.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I have a problem trying to understanding something.I have just taken a measurement of my foot and around the ball it's 26mm and I just measured this last around the ball of it an it's 24mm.Now here's what have me confused.I just pulled a shoe from that last and it fit snug as a bug in a rug.What am I not understanding here if I place build-ups in the ball area to meet my measurements I am afraid it may become to large.HELP somebody............sitting here confused.Oh!!what I need to mention also is that a slight build-up is needed at the instep.

Ed

Ed:

I hope you meant cm, or you must have the tiniest foot on record!

As you know I'm no expert, but I think some lastmakers do tend to make the ball something like 1/4" smaller than the measurement, although that would be more like 1/2 cm, not 2 cm. Of course, it also depends on how tightly you pull the tape on your foot, and whether you measure sitting or standing. Further, the foot is pliable, so it can fit into a smaller space than static measures might imply.

I look forward to the experts' replies.

Lance

Ed,

The leather will give a little and that probably accounts for the snugness. There is also a bit of cushioning in the foot unless it is really skinny and will compress a bit too. Did you measure around the last in exactly the same place and angle as you measured around your foot. By that I mean did you mark on the paper both sides of the tape on both sides of your foot and then place the last in position and then measure using those marks to give you the measurement. If you don't do that, and the tape is moved a little bit one way or the other, the measurement can easily be out. The treadline on feet are not often on the same angle as the tread line on a last.

To go with Lance, the measuring should be done standing with your weight balanced.

Tim