The Crispin Colloquy

here's the lasts

Courtney

Courtney,

Did you last dry or wet? I know that some folks last dry, I can't wrap my noggin around that. Lasting wet may get rid of that problem.

Cheers,

JesseLee

JesseLee,

Dry, I had thought maybe wet might help, Do I just soak the whole uppers?

Thanks,
Courtney

Courtney,

That may be the problem. Firstly, the pattern should just fall on the last. I only soak my uppers up to the ankle. Luke warm water, fit the upper on the last, mold with thumbs making sure the side seams are alligned. Set the back with 2 tacks and pull the toe, then the arches. I always get a perfect lasting with these steps.

Cheers,

JesseLee

Is there any sort of adhesive that could be used when lasting fitters which could then be debonded and redone if the process reveals that further adjustments to the last are needed? For example, use hide glue and then heat it with a heat gun while working a dull knife underneath?

All purpose, Barge, etc. and then just like you said.
Someone more experienced might have a different answer though.

Courtney

That wasn't supposed to happen! I made my first try at lasting a dance shoe in leather, just using my fingers with no lasting pliers, and I still managed to tear the leather just in front of the lateral joint. So I adjusted things and put it on a bit crooked to get the tear barely into the area that will be covered by the suede dance sole.

Should I not have lasted it wet? Did I get a bad piece of leather? Or is making a shoe out of 3-4 oz calf just going to be a much more delicate process?

I'm also having a problem with the ankle opening streching open, hence tacking the corners to the last. I ended up with a small synthetic ribbon which I thought would prevent stretching sewn in as I attached hand-skived topline tape, but maybe it stretched anyway. Or maybe I stretched the leather as a sewed it on. Should I make the opening in the pattern undersized?

I'm trying to use up most of the stretch of the leather in the lasting process, so the shoes won't stretch that much more in use (pruchased pairs don't seem to have much stretch left, and end up ultimately tearing wherever there is stress on them). Many commercial ones have a cloth backing, maybe I'll need to do that as well (though I don't like the idea, as it tends to delaminate quickly)

(Message edited by ccs on January 19, 2011)

Chris,

Leathers of a given thickness will vary widely in their stretchiness and strength (quality). Much of what I find locally was made with upholstery or garments in mind.

It is possible to use these more stretchy leathers for shoes but you then need to have a more stout liner. Trying to take all the stretch out of a very stretchy leather, or really any leather, is not that desirable. You're just stressing it to the breaking point.

You can also use reinforcements between the liner and the outer leather in the form of thin pieces of leather, cloth or reinforcing tapes to control undesired stretch.

Rick, thanks for the warning on overstretching. Does wetting it and letting it dry change that at all?

Reinforcing could be difficult as this is really an unlined style of shoe. Sometimes you see them with cloth doubling, but that's undesirable as it tends to come unglued and wear holes in the fabric, then the edges of the hole start to bunch up.

Making the actual shoes out of fabric is starting to look more tempting.

My first try isn't necessarily unusable, but I need to get a heel on it (and probably make its mate) before I could seriously evaluate it.

(Message edited by ccs on January 20, 2011)

One of the things a liner does for you is to allow effective reinforcing elements. If you're going to be unlined, a stouter leather may be what you want.

Any leather that will tear with just a finger pull's worth of force, is unsuitable for any purpose, much less shoemaking.

Chances are very high that it was dry split to a specific weight. If you are buying from job lots, it is well to remember that these can sometimes be leathers that turned out unsuitable for whatever purpose they were intended for. Sometimes these can be pure junk, as who should say.

Of course there is another although somewhat less likely issue...ie. that your patterns are enough off that you have to pull too hard in a given area to bring the leather down to the wood. This still does not exonerate the leather however. I have pulled 2-3 ounce leather over the waist (where "bridging" is most likely to occur) with bulldogs and never torn it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Hello Crispins,
We back everything. Vamps and Qtrs. Some call it plumper, or doubler, or backer. Whatever...it will reinforce the shoe so it won't stretch out of shape after customer wears for a week., as well as give the shoe a nicer fuller look, kind of even out some little transitions at seams. We used a nonwoven twill,very little stretch in it, which I don't know where you might get anymore. In the athletic shoes, we have a chinese supplier. Freedman might have some. Even womens pumps or dress shoes, always backed them. Makes a much better shoe.
Tim

Any leather that will tear with just a finger pull's worth of force, is unsuitable for any purpose, much less shoemaking.

Even if it's wet? I may end up reducing and rounding the last some in the area where it tore anyway.

But maybe I got a bad piece - no real harm as it was a learning experiment anyway.

Something I'm contemplating at the moment is cutting out a piece without an ankle opening and not doing the back seam, wetting it, and sort of pre-lasting it with some kind of fixture extending the heel of the last. Then after it dries taking it off and doing the ankle opening, lacing area, and trimming the back so the heel seam will make it a bit tight on the last - then lasting the front for real and cementing to the insole and all. Another reason for this is that I'd really like to do a split sole design (full soles invariably come unglued in the arch), which means the arch area would have a sewn seam rather than be lasted. Domestic sewing machine seems to handle the leather fine, but it's not going to get into tight corners of a partially assembled shoe the way a specialized one might.

(Message edited by ccs on January 20, 2011)

Was just looking at the scraps cut off the lasting allowance - half of them tear easily with finger pressure, the other half don't. I'm betting the failed area and tear-able scraps were from near the edge of the piece of leather I started with and somehow damaged. I should probably do layout with an eye to quality more than efficiency - keep trying to conserve and forget that I'm investing hours of work on maybe $3-4 worth of raw material.


(Message edited by ccs on January 20, 2011)

Yes, even when it's wet. I wet last all of my boots...with pincers.

It just occurred to me...although this may not be a factor...that the leather might be a corrected grain or "split."

Dry splitting beyond say 10-15% of the original thickness can reduce tensile strength as much as 50%.

When a thick leather is split...dry or wet...sometimes the split itself--the substance removed--is sold as a "split" or as "suede" or sometimes it is even given a plastic top coat to make it look like top grain leather. Such leather might be very fragile.

But again remember, we're not just talking about tearing, we're talking about tearing with no more effort than the fingers-all-by-themselves can exert. Now maybe you have gorilla hands but I've been doing this for near onto 40 years and I have pretty good hand strength...I wouldn't entirely trust any leather I could tear with my hands, much less fingers-all-by-themselves.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Chris,
The leather could have come from a place like India. I've had saddle flaps (on 'English' saddles) made from 10oz full grain veg tanned leather that I could rip in my hands. Although their leather is better now it can still be dodgy. Some manufactures use leather tanned by English companies but get their goods made in India.

What tannage is your leather or what animal is it from? Goat for example is very light and you might rip that. In fact it looks like goat or Kid as it's called.

More power to y'awl.
Tomo

I don't know what it is... I would have said a small cow as it seemed similar to the stores larger pieces that were clearly cowhide. Apparently it was the last of a lot, so it was cheap. But maybe it was kid. I have another slightly thicker piece from a different source I can try, then may try ordering some when I get apron splits for more suitable soles.

On further comparison to my other piece, it probably is kid... Will have to try making a shoe from the other piece.

Trying to decide if I want to try dancing with mismatched shoes ;-) Can't be worse than one shoe and one sock, which has happened before.


(Message edited by ccs on January 20, 2011)

(Message edited by ccs on January 20, 2011)

Chris,
Kid is usually about 2, 3, 4 sq feet =/-, not very big usually, although some might be larger. The stuff I've had usually has a courser hair cell than say calf, but plating could hide this.
T.

Coarser hair cell sounds about right, and the size for a full hide (which it seems to be by shape) is plausible. That would make the torn portion near the belly edge. Going to try the other piece, with denser pattern which I think is cowhide.

I've been having problems with the thin, flexible insoles I want to use slipping out of place during lasting.


Best idea I've come up with so far is to bind them on with thread. The shoes tend to turn inside out as I pull them off the last anyway so it was easy to clip the threads. And in this case I was actually making a turn shoe to get a pair from one last. (that's actually the ballroom outsole being used as a lasting insole, flesh side will be out when finished)

But would be curious if anyone has other ideas of how to secure the insole in the area under the lasting margin. Given that the last is basically made out of bulk iron-fusible adhesive web, I could probably iron it on, but delasting might be a bit challenging then.

(Message edited by ccs on January 25, 2011)

Not sure I'm understanding the issue but the normal procedure would be to use 3 nails much in the manner of your push pin in the photo.

Rick,

My problem is that the insole is very flimsy, since I want the ballroom outsole added later to the be the primary structure - if I was doing the shoe normally instead of inside out, I'd be lasting the upper to a piece of pellon nonwoven interfacing. But even the 5 oz chrome tanned leather outsole-to-be that's functioning as an insole in the turnshoe picture likes to creep out from under the lasting allowance if secured with tacks only in the area that the upper won't cover. So my lasting process ends up being tug on upper, stuff insole back under, nail before either slips.

The thread binding seems to work okay, it just seems "odd"

(Message edited by ccs on January 25, 2011)

(Message edited by ccs on January 25, 2011)

When I was working with my shaper layer (first mid-sole to replace puff, side shapers and heel counter) I used pieces of t-shirt material to hold the leather and help shape it. In hopes that a picture's worth a thousand words I've included two.

This first picture is my first attempt at a shaper. I used cording (I didn't yet have a supply of the right nails) but I wasn't happy with the result as it wasn't smooth (I had some minor pleating) and the cord left marks (valleys) in the leather. This effort won't go to waste as I will use it as the base of some birkenstock style sandals at some point in the future. Trimming the top of the shaper down will remove the worst of the pleating.


This second image is the improved method. I used a single piece of t-shirt cotton which I pulled up over the soaked shaper and nailed to hold the t-shirt knit snuggly. I worked carefully, taking up slack (twisting and nailing) and hammering to smooth out bumps and pleats. This was a lovely success.


The end result was a wonderfully smooth shaper that was easy to skive and fit beautifully onto the bottom of the lasted lining. I will use this technique to shape moccasin bottoms when I get to the point I decide I need a pair.

And, the next time I use this technique I will have enough confidence to barge cement the shaper onto the lasted lining instead of using all purpose glue.

Nori

Here's one more picture. It shows the other side.


Wadly's gotten me a car inner tube. I think I can use pieces of it for shaping. Rubber bands are great but I don't have a big selection and the ones I have aren't quite as strong as I'd like. For some things I think it will work great. For others, it's going to slow down the drying which may slow progress.

Nori

Nori,
Never tried what you are doing. Would an ACE type elastic bandage be helpful with the forming?
Chuck