Jenny,
If you can do the foot outline and then place the last in front of that line by 5mm, does that put the joint of the last on the inside joint of your foot. The wedge is best ground out a bit behind the joint, it doesn't need to touch the ground, and in lots of cases it doesn't seem to sit right.
If it felt that you were standing on the waist then it may be that the heel to ball area of the last is too long.
The other post about attaching heels, anything that is not rubber/eva/crepe is not held just by cement, you need to either nail or use self tapping screws. Cement is just not good enough to hold.
Tim
One "Last" Question
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: One "Last" Question
Tim, I just wince at the thought of using nails or screws. The reason is that a I had a roommate at one point who let the heels of her pumps wear out so there was a nail head sticking out of the bottom of her shoes' heels, completely exposed. She walked around the apartment with those shoes (actually, several pair like that!) until I noticed a trail of dents in the wood floor leading to her bedroom!
The first pair of shoes I made had stacked leather heels, and I used cement only. Sounds like you think that's not advisable. Is it possible to use wooden pegs instead of nails?
re putting the last on a flat foot outline... the place where the last contacts the floor at the ball of the foot changes if you lift the heel up, so that's why I thought I should have the heel at the same height as the shoe will have. I would think putting it flat on the foot outline would be inaccurate in terms of where the shoe would really first contact the ground at the tread area...?
Jenny
The first pair of shoes I made had stacked leather heels, and I used cement only. Sounds like you think that's not advisable. Is it possible to use wooden pegs instead of nails?
re putting the last on a flat foot outline... the place where the last contacts the floor at the ball of the foot changes if you lift the heel up, so that's why I thought I should have the heel at the same height as the shoe will have. I would think putting it flat on the foot outline would be inaccurate in terms of where the shoe would really first contact the ground at the tread area...?
Jenny
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artzend
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Re: One "Last" Question
Jenny,
The nail thing in the bottom of the heel is probably not the nails holding the heel to the shoe but the nails holding the top piece. You can get away with no nails for that if you want but you really need to nail the heel from the top to hold effectively. The heel comes off if knocked when it is only glued.
I don't think that pegs would be as good either. You can always cut your nails short so they don't reach all the way to the last lift, but you will probably need to nail the last lift before the top piece back the other way. This leaves only the head of the nail flush on the surface, not sticking out. I have seen a description of the lifts having been sewn on but I could never figure out how it was done and is far too slow to bother with.
Your heel height is not that great so placing the last flat on the foot outline should be ok, if you like you can place the last in position as described and hold the paper up to the last bottom with your hand, making sure that the seat stays where it should be. Then check the lining up of the inside joint.
To find the joint position on the last, hold it against a bench with the last running parallel to the bench, not with the heel area resting on the bench too. Mark where the widest part of the forepart touches the bench. Do this to both sides of the last and you will have your joint positions.
If the last joint and the ball do not match up, then the last needs to be altered.
I covered last building up in my book http://www.shoemakingbook.com as it is an important part of getting the shoe to fit, and that section may help you.
Can you photograph the foot outline with the last in place over the top for me to see please. Mark outside the inside and outside joints, it is not really helpful to do it under your foot as it is not obvious where the positions are. Mark the joints on the last before you do it too. I would just like to make sure that if there is a problem here we can sort it for you.
Tim
The nail thing in the bottom of the heel is probably not the nails holding the heel to the shoe but the nails holding the top piece. You can get away with no nails for that if you want but you really need to nail the heel from the top to hold effectively. The heel comes off if knocked when it is only glued.
I don't think that pegs would be as good either. You can always cut your nails short so they don't reach all the way to the last lift, but you will probably need to nail the last lift before the top piece back the other way. This leaves only the head of the nail flush on the surface, not sticking out. I have seen a description of the lifts having been sewn on but I could never figure out how it was done and is far too slow to bother with.
Your heel height is not that great so placing the last flat on the foot outline should be ok, if you like you can place the last in position as described and hold the paper up to the last bottom with your hand, making sure that the seat stays where it should be. Then check the lining up of the inside joint.
To find the joint position on the last, hold it against a bench with the last running parallel to the bench, not with the heel area resting on the bench too. Mark where the widest part of the forepart touches the bench. Do this to both sides of the last and you will have your joint positions.
If the last joint and the ball do not match up, then the last needs to be altered.
I covered last building up in my book http://www.shoemakingbook.com as it is an important part of getting the shoe to fit, and that section may help you.
Can you photograph the foot outline with the last in place over the top for me to see please. Mark outside the inside and outside joints, it is not really helpful to do it under your foot as it is not obvious where the positions are. Mark the joints on the last before you do it too. I would just like to make sure that if there is a problem here we can sort it for you.
Tim
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relferink
Re: One "Last" Question
Jenny,
Does the shoe gap at the heel or have a lot of slippage in the heel when you walk in it? If the treadline is truthfully to far forward the foot will slide forward to the deepest point once you walk in the shoes, can't stop gravity. If not, it may not be so much the position of the treadline as the slope that the arch area comes up with from the tread line.
You mentioned that on one pair you stoped the wedge earlier and that seemed to have helped, that would effect the slope more than the actual position of the treadline.
If I remember correctly you lasted with a spacer to give you extra room. If you take that spacer and grind it down right in that area does it feel better when you walk on it? That would be your simplest change, if that works add to the last in that area.
You asked why the contact area with the ground should not be the whole red area on your print, it could be but it will make walking very difficult. You'll be walking like a duck. The way the foot is held in the shoe (by virtue of the last shape) allows it to bend at the metatarsals and roll forward to get to toe off. If you create a large contact area at the ball of the foot you will have a very stable shoe but you will not get a normal progression in the gait. The foot will experience a lot of resistance going from the flat stable area to toe off. It's done in orthopedic shoes mostly for patients that have Parkinson's, if you give them to much momentum they don't have the muscle control to stop so the shoe needs to be stable and not allow them to go to fast.
Also remember that there's a good deal of soft tissue around the ball area of the foot, all that moves and contours to the bottom as you put weight on it but if you look at your foot non weight bearing you can see that the deepest point of your feet is a the treadline. That's dictated by the bone structure so that's what you follow when you create a last
Unfortunately it's not easy to make a new last that would have the flat bottom but if you tried it you would feel it right away and because it will not help you in your gait it will put a good deal of extra stress on the back of the heel. Reason being is that the ankle joint needs to do more of the flexing needed to walk, putting more pressure on your Achilles tendon and the back of the heel.
Hope his kind of explains it. Once you try it and feel the effects it will all start to make sense to you but it's much harder to put in words.
Heels: You can certainly peg the heel with wooden pegs but as Tim mentioned it's safe to nail as long as you do not nail your top lift and replace the top lift before it's totally worn. Your roommate, was she wearing heels? Most of the small heels do have a metal pin meted in the top lift but that's a very different type of shoe from what you make so not worries about that.
Rob
Does the shoe gap at the heel or have a lot of slippage in the heel when you walk in it? If the treadline is truthfully to far forward the foot will slide forward to the deepest point once you walk in the shoes, can't stop gravity. If not, it may not be so much the position of the treadline as the slope that the arch area comes up with from the tread line.
You mentioned that on one pair you stoped the wedge earlier and that seemed to have helped, that would effect the slope more than the actual position of the treadline.
If I remember correctly you lasted with a spacer to give you extra room. If you take that spacer and grind it down right in that area does it feel better when you walk on it? That would be your simplest change, if that works add to the last in that area.
You asked why the contact area with the ground should not be the whole red area on your print, it could be but it will make walking very difficult. You'll be walking like a duck. The way the foot is held in the shoe (by virtue of the last shape) allows it to bend at the metatarsals and roll forward to get to toe off. If you create a large contact area at the ball of the foot you will have a very stable shoe but you will not get a normal progression in the gait. The foot will experience a lot of resistance going from the flat stable area to toe off. It's done in orthopedic shoes mostly for patients that have Parkinson's, if you give them to much momentum they don't have the muscle control to stop so the shoe needs to be stable and not allow them to go to fast.
Also remember that there's a good deal of soft tissue around the ball area of the foot, all that moves and contours to the bottom as you put weight on it but if you look at your foot non weight bearing you can see that the deepest point of your feet is a the treadline. That's dictated by the bone structure so that's what you follow when you create a last
Unfortunately it's not easy to make a new last that would have the flat bottom but if you tried it you would feel it right away and because it will not help you in your gait it will put a good deal of extra stress on the back of the heel. Reason being is that the ankle joint needs to do more of the flexing needed to walk, putting more pressure on your Achilles tendon and the back of the heel.
Hope his kind of explains it. Once you try it and feel the effects it will all start to make sense to you but it's much harder to put in words.
Heels: You can certainly peg the heel with wooden pegs but as Tim mentioned it's safe to nail as long as you do not nail your top lift and replace the top lift before it's totally worn. Your roommate, was she wearing heels? Most of the small heels do have a metal pin meted in the top lift but that's a very different type of shoe from what you make so not worries about that.
Rob
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
Coming in at the tail end of this part of the discussion....
I peg every layer of my heel on boots--all the way up to two and a quarter inches. The toplift is generally rubber and is put on with nails but I have used pegs there too. Pegs will give a toplift...especially a toplift made from a dense rubber...lateral stability. It will prevent the lift from moving and sloughing off if, or as, the cement fails. And the peg, being harder than the rubber will actually wear away at a slightly faster rate than the rubber and so it will never protrude or catch on the rug.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I peg every layer of my heel on boots--all the way up to two and a quarter inches. The toplift is generally rubber and is put on with nails but I have used pegs there too. Pegs will give a toplift...especially a toplift made from a dense rubber...lateral stability. It will prevent the lift from moving and sloughing off if, or as, the cement fails. And the peg, being harder than the rubber will actually wear away at a slightly faster rate than the rubber and so it will never protrude or catch on the rug.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: One "Last" Question
OK, here go some pics. Tim, I hope I understood your directions.
Still haven't gotten a handle on getting the sizing right, so bear with me. It's always a surprise to me to see what size the photos appear!
My foot tracing:
The last on the foot tracing, 5mm from back of the foot tracing:
Rob, I do have a little slippage at the heel, although part of that may be because I can't curve the topline in at the back as much as normal because of my problem feet. Also, I think the topline stretched out a little on my shoes. I just bought some pellon at the fabric store to try around the topline of the next pair. In adjusting the lasts, I keep making them snugger around the heel area topline (sides, not the back) and down from the topline.
The shoes I just finished weren't too bad, but when I put the orthotics in (both the ones I made and the ones you made for me), the orthotics press out around the heel counter, and then the topline spreads open and doesn't grip the heel as well as without the orthotics. I'm thinking I need to grind the orthotics narrower, not at the insole surface, but around the top edge...Also, I think the wedge sole is more rigid than a stacked heel and thus may cause more slippage at the heel as the shoe doesn't flex as easily (?).
Jenny
Still haven't gotten a handle on getting the sizing right, so bear with me. It's always a surprise to me to see what size the photos appear!
My foot tracing:
The last on the foot tracing, 5mm from back of the foot tracing:
Rob, I do have a little slippage at the heel, although part of that may be because I can't curve the topline in at the back as much as normal because of my problem feet. Also, I think the topline stretched out a little on my shoes. I just bought some pellon at the fabric store to try around the topline of the next pair. In adjusting the lasts, I keep making them snugger around the heel area topline (sides, not the back) and down from the topline.
The shoes I just finished weren't too bad, but when I put the orthotics in (both the ones I made and the ones you made for me), the orthotics press out around the heel counter, and then the topline spreads open and doesn't grip the heel as well as without the orthotics. I'm thinking I need to grind the orthotics narrower, not at the insole surface, but around the top edge...Also, I think the wedge sole is more rigid than a stacked heel and thus may cause more slippage at the heel as the shoe doesn't flex as easily (?).
Jenny
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Re: One "Last" Question
Part 2--with the 5/8" heel under the last, which does move forward slightly the spot where the last contacts the ground at the ball of the foot.
Jenny
Jenny
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Re: One "Last" Question
Jenny,
You don't need to put the heel there for this exercise. It looks to me that the heel to ball length is out. If your last is only 5mm/3/16" in front of the line around the heel, then the joint is not sitting on your joint marks for your foot.
This would explain why you felt that you were walking on the waist. You probably were.
When taking your measurements always put your orthotics in place before measuring. If you mark the last joints, you will be able to see how much too long the back of the last is.
You may also be able to reduce the overall length of the last as the front of the last only needs to be 12mm/1/2" longer than the front of the last.
Your orhotics (orthoses) are a source of problems. Yes if you can grind them down on the sides they will fit in the shoe better and not cause the gaping that you are experiencing. I am not an expert on these things but it seems to me that the people who make them have no idea what they are doing inside the shoe.
I don't think that they need to be any wider than the tread line outline of the foot. The shoe holds the foot in place, it isn't just sitting on a platform. A lot of the time the orthotics will force the foot forward in the shoe and that is another place that need to be ground back.
The bottom of your last is not too curved from the photos so the orthotic should sit ok on the insole.
Tim
You don't need to put the heel there for this exercise. It looks to me that the heel to ball length is out. If your last is only 5mm/3/16" in front of the line around the heel, then the joint is not sitting on your joint marks for your foot.
This would explain why you felt that you were walking on the waist. You probably were.
When taking your measurements always put your orthotics in place before measuring. If you mark the last joints, you will be able to see how much too long the back of the last is.
You may also be able to reduce the overall length of the last as the front of the last only needs to be 12mm/1/2" longer than the front of the last.
Your orhotics (orthoses) are a source of problems. Yes if you can grind them down on the sides they will fit in the shoe better and not cause the gaping that you are experiencing. I am not an expert on these things but it seems to me that the people who make them have no idea what they are doing inside the shoe.
I don't think that they need to be any wider than the tread line outline of the foot. The shoe holds the foot in place, it isn't just sitting on a platform. A lot of the time the orthotics will force the foot forward in the shoe and that is another place that need to be ground back.
The bottom of your last is not too curved from the photos so the orthotic should sit ok on the insole.
Tim
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Re: One "Last" Question
Jenny,
The orthotic is made to your foot and the insole pattern of the original last, it does however come up around the heel to hold your heal and control your heel motion in gait. The height it comes up on the site may be to much for the shoes and the new last, in that case you can grind it down.
That's the reason I make my shoes around a last that has the orthotic attached. That way I don't have to try to retro-fit and run into space constraint and fitting issues.
The bottom contour of the last is minimally accounted for in the orthotic. That's something I will do at dispensing. Since most comfort shoes that are used for orthotic these days do not have a well defined waist curve I don't grind much in to begin with. It can be ground in easily as needed.
In the last sets of pictures it does seem that the tread line is slightly forward. Considering the squareness of the heel (you don't come in much at the feather line) bringing it 5 mm forward is to much in my opinion. You want to place the last on the heel height and bring it slightly forward, the higher the heel the further forward you bring it. There is probably a formula for that. However I just place it where it makes sense to me ant that works well. Sorry; the promise of knowledge that comes from experience is all I can offer.
If you consider changing your last I would consider taking material of the back and if needed build up the front of the cone slightly, much easier than fooling around with the bottom profile and as Tim pointed our, the toe allowance seems plenty long so you won't have to add much there if anything at all to compensate for what you take of the back.
You're doing the right thing by taking in the width of the cone. It will create a better grip on your foot without increasing the pressure in the back of the heel.
Just my
Rob
The orthotic is made to your foot and the insole pattern of the original last, it does however come up around the heel to hold your heal and control your heel motion in gait. The height it comes up on the site may be to much for the shoes and the new last, in that case you can grind it down.
That's the reason I make my shoes around a last that has the orthotic attached. That way I don't have to try to retro-fit and run into space constraint and fitting issues.
The bottom contour of the last is minimally accounted for in the orthotic. That's something I will do at dispensing. Since most comfort shoes that are used for orthotic these days do not have a well defined waist curve I don't grind much in to begin with. It can be ground in easily as needed.
In the last sets of pictures it does seem that the tread line is slightly forward. Considering the squareness of the heel (you don't come in much at the feather line) bringing it 5 mm forward is to much in my opinion. You want to place the last on the heel height and bring it slightly forward, the higher the heel the further forward you bring it. There is probably a formula for that. However I just place it where it makes sense to me ant that works well. Sorry; the promise of knowledge that comes from experience is all I can offer.
If you consider changing your last I would consider taking material of the back and if needed build up the front of the cone slightly, much easier than fooling around with the bottom profile and as Tim pointed our, the toe allowance seems plenty long so you won't have to add much there if anything at all to compensate for what you take of the back.
You're doing the right thing by taking in the width of the cone. It will create a better grip on your foot without increasing the pressure in the back of the heel.
Just my
Rob
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: One "Last" Question
Rob, in spite of the fact that the lasts look a lot longer than my foot tracing, I'm hesitant to remove material from the heel to change the tread line. I've done so much revision to try to get the heels comfortable, I'm reluctant to change them. I'm afraid if I have to make adjustments to the tread line I'll do it the hard way on the bottom surface. But then, I do EVERYTHING the hard way! 
Tim, it actually looks to me like the last's joint line is at the same place as the joint line on my foot tracing in the first photos. Why is this still not the correct place?
When I put the heel under the last, the joint line moves farther forward, which is why I thought I should do that in the first place. Then it appears the joint line on the last is too far forward???
Jenny
PS--When talking about lasts is the joint line and tread line the same thing? I have been using them interchangably.
Tim, it actually looks to me like the last's joint line is at the same place as the joint line on my foot tracing in the first photos. Why is this still not the correct place?
When I put the heel under the last, the joint line moves farther forward, which is why I thought I should do that in the first place. Then it appears the joint line on the last is too far forward???
Jenny
PS--When talking about lasts is the joint line and tread line the same thing? I have been using them interchangably.
Re: One "Last" Question
Jenny,
You'll have better luck with your topline not stretching if you use topline tape. It's designed to maintain the dimensions of the topline as in this pump I made to keep the fit from stretching away. Comes in a variety of sizes and a roll with manny meters on it is under $l0 a roll. Pellon just doesn't have enough ooph to it.
Regards,
Georgene
You'll have better luck with your topline not stretching if you use topline tape. It's designed to maintain the dimensions of the topline as in this pump I made to keep the fit from stretching away. Comes in a variety of sizes and a roll with manny meters on it is under $l0 a roll. Pellon just doesn't have enough ooph to it.
Regards,
Georgene
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artzend
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Re: One "Last" Question
Jenny and Rob,
First, I don't see why the orthotic needs to cup a heel, in any other shoe the heel is not cupped and sits flat with a small amount of space behind it. When an orthosis has a cup to hold the heel it sits proud of the heel, quite often all round and this causes the foot to be pushed forward away from the back of the last. The cupped back of this to my mind serves no purpose, the foot can't move any further back anyway. Maybe I am missing something. When it is too wide at the sides too, it pushes on the stiffener and causes distortion at the front edge of the stiffener, creating gaping.
Jenny, you should have topline tape glued and if possible stitched between the upper and lining, any sort of thin synthetic tape you get for tying up presents works ok for this. If you can put it inside the fold (with glue on both sides) it will never be seen and will stop any stretching. Has that been a problem or am I just answering too many posts here.
If you hold your last parallel to a bench and mark where the joint touches the solid surface, and then do the other side and mark that it will be easier to see the relationship between the last and your foot joint lines.
Rob is right when he says the material needs to come off the back. Leave the bottom of the last alone, that does not appear to be your problem.
Yes, in this case either term will do (for me anyway), they are the same thing.
George Koleff used the 5mm in front of the back line of the foot outline and I always use that, it worked for an awful lot of shoes.
Rob may be right about the curve in under the heel, but I would not think it made much difference. Sorry to cause you so much angst but until the joint line marks line up, you will probably have a problem with wearing them.
Do you have anyone close who could look at the lasts and help you? It is a bit hard to tell you to reduce the heel to ball without actually handling the last and your foot pattern.
Tim
First, I don't see why the orthotic needs to cup a heel, in any other shoe the heel is not cupped and sits flat with a small amount of space behind it. When an orthosis has a cup to hold the heel it sits proud of the heel, quite often all round and this causes the foot to be pushed forward away from the back of the last. The cupped back of this to my mind serves no purpose, the foot can't move any further back anyway. Maybe I am missing something. When it is too wide at the sides too, it pushes on the stiffener and causes distortion at the front edge of the stiffener, creating gaping.
Jenny, you should have topline tape glued and if possible stitched between the upper and lining, any sort of thin synthetic tape you get for tying up presents works ok for this. If you can put it inside the fold (with glue on both sides) it will never be seen and will stop any stretching. Has that been a problem or am I just answering too many posts here.
If you hold your last parallel to a bench and mark where the joint touches the solid surface, and then do the other side and mark that it will be easier to see the relationship between the last and your foot joint lines.
Rob is right when he says the material needs to come off the back. Leave the bottom of the last alone, that does not appear to be your problem.
Yes, in this case either term will do (for me anyway), they are the same thing.
George Koleff used the 5mm in front of the back line of the foot outline and I always use that, it worked for an awful lot of shoes.
Rob may be right about the curve in under the heel, but I would not think it made much difference. Sorry to cause you so much angst but until the joint line marks line up, you will probably have a problem with wearing them.
Do you have anyone close who could look at the lasts and help you? It is a bit hard to tell you to reduce the heel to ball without actually handling the last and your foot pattern.
Tim
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: One "Last" Question
Georgene,
I had gotten a bunch of samples from Avon Tape that are made for the shoe industry, and experimented with cementing them on samples of leather. Will all of them I had problems going around the curve of the topline, and it actually caused some stretching or bulging of the leather as a result. I even tried making little snips along the bottom edge to try to get it to take the curve better, but it still didn't lie flat on the leather. There must be something obvious that I'm missing, because obviously topline tape is used successfully by others.
I think someone on this board suggested stiffener from a sewing store, because it could be cut to the shape of the topline, so I thought I'd give it a try. But if I can find out how to make the tape take the curve, that would be great.
The shoes I am making now will not have turned edges. I decided it takes too long, plus the kidskin I'm using this time is very stretchy. However, I am resigned to having the topline tape slightly visible if it can't be avoided. The pigskin lining I have now is not struck through, so it shows white in the middle anyway. Until I get the lasts and fit perfect, I decided it's better to do faster production and be less particular about the appearance of the shoe!
Tim, I don't know what you mean by "hold the last parallel on a bench." Wouldn't one of the ways I photographed the last on my tracing (either with or without the heel) be the same thing?
Jenny
I had gotten a bunch of samples from Avon Tape that are made for the shoe industry, and experimented with cementing them on samples of leather. Will all of them I had problems going around the curve of the topline, and it actually caused some stretching or bulging of the leather as a result. I even tried making little snips along the bottom edge to try to get it to take the curve better, but it still didn't lie flat on the leather. There must be something obvious that I'm missing, because obviously topline tape is used successfully by others.
I think someone on this board suggested stiffener from a sewing store, because it could be cut to the shape of the topline, so I thought I'd give it a try. But if I can find out how to make the tape take the curve, that would be great.
The shoes I am making now will not have turned edges. I decided it takes too long, plus the kidskin I'm using this time is very stretchy. However, I am resigned to having the topline tape slightly visible if it can't be avoided. The pigskin lining I have now is not struck through, so it shows white in the middle anyway. Until I get the lasts and fit perfect, I decided it's better to do faster production and be less particular about the appearance of the shoe!
Tim, I don't know what you mean by "hold the last parallel on a bench." Wouldn't one of the ways I photographed the last on my tracing (either with or without the heel) be the same thing?
Jenny
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artzend
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Re: One "Last" Question
Jenny,
The topline tape only needs to be 3mm/1/8" wide, just cut it to length and then dip it in some glue and hang it off the bench to dry, Then, before you fit your lining to the upper, run it round just below the edge of the topline and press it into place. You won't have to do anything else. I have used the cord that some folding machines use and that goes inside the fold easily.
I would also suggest that practice skiving is as important as anything else you are doing and a raw topline looks crappy most of the time. You will definitely need tape for the kid.
This is what I mean by parallel to a bench:
You can paint dye on the raw edge of the lining after you have finished to reduce the obvious edge.
Tim
The topline tape only needs to be 3mm/1/8" wide, just cut it to length and then dip it in some glue and hang it off the bench to dry, Then, before you fit your lining to the upper, run it round just below the edge of the topline and press it into place. You won't have to do anything else. I have used the cord that some folding machines use and that goes inside the fold easily.
I would also suggest that practice skiving is as important as anything else you are doing and a raw topline looks crappy most of the time. You will definitely need tape for the kid.
This is what I mean by parallel to a bench:
You can paint dye on the raw edge of the lining after you have finished to reduce the obvious edge.
Tim
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: One "Last" Question
Thanks, Tim.
When you say "glue" do you mean Barge or other AP cement, or is there some other kind of glue that works better? I just pulled out my tape supply, and realized it is already sticky on one side. Does putting more glue or cement on it help in some way?
Still looking for more comments on evaluating the lasts with or without the heel under them. Without the heel, I thought the treadline might be in the correct place (first set of photos).
Jenny
When you say "glue" do you mean Barge or other AP cement, or is there some other kind of glue that works better? I just pulled out my tape supply, and realized it is already sticky on one side. Does putting more glue or cement on it help in some way?
Still looking for more comments on evaluating the lasts with or without the heel under them. Without the heel, I thought the treadline might be in the correct place (first set of photos).
Jenny
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: One "Last" Question
Hmmm...just noticed I'm still getting puckering of the topline tape...
Jenny
Jenny
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dw
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Re: One "Last" Question
Here's a comment from the peanut gallery...If the lasts are made from a cast of the foot, the treadline nearly has to be in the the proper place relative to the back of the heel. The caveat is that if you have added substantially to the back of the heel, thinking to accomodate a heel spur or some other anomaly, that may have changed the shank length.
I'm in agreement with both Tim and Robert in that it appears there is too much toe. Too much has been added at that end of the last but that will not affect fit much...certainly not in the joint area.
Looking at the photos posted, it seems to be that the last fits the tracing (more or less) on the medial side but not so certainly on the lateral side.
The real trouble is that trying to fit a foot and a last is never as straightforward as setting the last on the tracing. All kinds of things can throw the tracing off--the pencil width; the angle of the pencil; weight on, weight off--a tracing alone doesn't yield enough data. I thought you might get away with it being as how you cast your own foot to make the last, but it's hard to go back and pinpoint the problem without knowing what kinds of mods you made to the cast. Without empirical data such as stick and even Sabbage's Sectionizer...we're all just guessing.
And...
third time's a charm...yes, jointline and treadline are the same!
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
(Message edited by dw on August 06, 2007)
I'm in agreement with both Tim and Robert in that it appears there is too much toe. Too much has been added at that end of the last but that will not affect fit much...certainly not in the joint area.
Looking at the photos posted, it seems to be that the last fits the tracing (more or less) on the medial side but not so certainly on the lateral side.
The real trouble is that trying to fit a foot and a last is never as straightforward as setting the last on the tracing. All kinds of things can throw the tracing off--the pencil width; the angle of the pencil; weight on, weight off--a tracing alone doesn't yield enough data. I thought you might get away with it being as how you cast your own foot to make the last, but it's hard to go back and pinpoint the problem without knowing what kinds of mods you made to the cast. Without empirical data such as stick and even Sabbage's Sectionizer...we're all just guessing.
And...
third time's a charm...yes, jointline and treadline are the same! Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
(Message edited by dw on August 06, 2007)
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: One "Last" Question
DW, I started out with casts of my feet, but then made so many ill-informed changes to them (I think this might be about the 7th or 8th revision) that I probably lost the original shape. I am now just making revisions on them based on how they fit my feet at the present time.
At one point I had actually moved the treadline forward, because shoes made on the lasts seemed to not be snug to the bottom of my foot just behind the joint area.
Jenny
At one point I had actually moved the treadline forward, because shoes made on the lasts seemed to not be snug to the bottom of my foot just behind the joint area.
Jenny
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: One "Last" Question
Tim and Rob, I've been rereading your posts and I apologize for having missed some of the details the first time re heel or no heel under the lasts. I guess there is more than one way to accomplish the same thing!
I am also comforting myself with the knowledge that at one time shoes were symmetrical, so obviously the treadline couldn't match the foot perfectly, and yet the human race survived!
I still am looking for info on how to eliminate the puckers in the topline tape (see photo a few posts above).
Besides narrowing the cone and using topline tape, are there any other ways to reduce heel slippage (that won't make my heels hurt!)?
Jenny
I am also comforting myself with the knowledge that at one time shoes were symmetrical, so obviously the treadline couldn't match the foot perfectly, and yet the human race survived!
I still am looking for info on how to eliminate the puckers in the topline tape (see photo a few posts above).
Besides narrowing the cone and using topline tape, are there any other ways to reduce heel slippage (that won't make my heels hurt!)?
Jenny
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artzend
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Re: One "Last" Question
Jenny,
Narrowing the cone is not likely to assist here unfortunately. The problem, as it appears to me is that the back of the shoe is too long. With your heel in the back of the shoe, the ball of your foot is going to be in the waist. Without seeing the mark on the last showing the joint, I would say you need to bring the heel in by about 10mm/7/16" if not more. Don't worry about the outside joint mark, it is not important for this exercise, but the inside one is.
How thick is that tape. I used the coloured synthetic tape you get from $2 shops for present wrapping. It shouldn't matter if you do get some wrinkling, when you last up, any wrinkles will go.
Is the tape specifically for shoemaking? What is it made from? Is it a single or double thickness?. I only ask because of the mention of glue on one side. You need glue (barge should be ok I think. We don't have that brand name) to stick the lining on once the tape is in place. You can put it in and then paint the glue on later if you want.
When we get the last fitting right we can approach the heel problem. I think that can be sorted by adding buildups on the back of the last in the appropriate places to keep the back of the shoe off the tender areas. That should be the easy bit.
Tim
Narrowing the cone is not likely to assist here unfortunately. The problem, as it appears to me is that the back of the shoe is too long. With your heel in the back of the shoe, the ball of your foot is going to be in the waist. Without seeing the mark on the last showing the joint, I would say you need to bring the heel in by about 10mm/7/16" if not more. Don't worry about the outside joint mark, it is not important for this exercise, but the inside one is.
How thick is that tape. I used the coloured synthetic tape you get from $2 shops for present wrapping. It shouldn't matter if you do get some wrinkling, when you last up, any wrinkles will go.
Is the tape specifically for shoemaking? What is it made from? Is it a single or double thickness?. I only ask because of the mention of glue on one side. You need glue (barge should be ok I think. We don't have that brand name) to stick the lining on once the tape is in place. You can put it in and then paint the glue on later if you want.
When we get the last fitting right we can approach the heel problem. I think that can be sorted by adding buildups on the back of the last in the appropriate places to keep the back of the shoe off the tender areas. That should be the easy bit.
Tim
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: One "Last" Question
Thanks, Tim. Can someone (probably Tim or Rob?) post a picture of a last sitting on a foot tracing that has the jointline marked so I can see how it should match up? (so I can compare it to the pictures I posted)
It seems to me that if the treadline on my lasts are moved back 1/2" they would be too far back! Ah, the incredible, moving treadline....
Jenny
It seems to me that if the treadline on my lasts are moved back 1/2" they would be too far back! Ah, the incredible, moving treadline....
Jenny
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artzend
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Re: One "Last" Question
Jenny,
Sorry I don't have a photo at the moment but these may assist until I can get one done. The first one shows the position to place the last when first assessing it for fit. The other shows the last in place (from the wrong side) but with an arrow showing where the joint position is.
Conversely, the amount to be reduced can be ascertained by placing the joint marks together and then working out how much to take off the back, which has to come back to the 5mm mark.
Tim
Sorry I don't have a photo at the moment but these may assist until I can get one done. The first one shows the position to place the last when first assessing it for fit. The other shows the last in place (from the wrong side) but with an arrow showing where the joint position is.
Conversely, the amount to be reduced can be ascertained by placing the joint marks together and then working out how much to take off the back, which has to come back to the 5mm mark.
Tim
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relferink
Re: One "Last" Question
Tim,
Based on the picture it looks like the 5mm offset at the heel you mentioned before is based on the position of the feather line, not the back of the last. That would explain why I think 5 mm is to much at the heel height Jenny is using. Let me know if I see it wrong but that's what it looks like in the pictures.
A quick comment on the post from Aug. 5th on the orthotics, you're right that when the heel on an orthotic has to much rounding in the back it rarely serves a function and often does pull the foot forward, out of the shoe's heel counter.
The cupping on the sides of the heel however are important in controlling the foot.
When making orthotics for factory produced shoes you need much more heel cup to be effective. In custom shoes made on custom lasts the fit of the shoes is much better so there is less rotation to begin with so you need less material to control that rotation.
Just as with heel counters in a shoe, the sides get structural strength from the 3 dimensional shape around the heel so you can not totally take away the cup in the back and expect the sides to stand up. The key is to keep it as low as possible, grinding them off will negatively effect the function of the orthotics and the comfort of the shoes.
Another excellent reason for a rounded bottom of the heel, as you find in orthotics, is that feet are much more comfortable on a contoured footbed. It helps with pressure distribution and supports the feet. With small adjustments you can correct excess proration, increase stability in the rearfoot and offload the forefoot.
When talking about orthotics it is important to know what the intention of the orthotic is. Often an orthotic that is made with a sizable heel cup has the purpose to control the heel position at heelstrike. If the position of the heel is controlled when the foot first hits the ground it will not deviate as much from the "ideal" position so you have to force less correction in a later stage of the gait cycle.
Making the shoe with extra space and retro fitting an orthotic is not an ideal situation in my opinion. Personally I would prefer to build a custom last based on the contour of the foot and build a footbed and a shoe over that. Not that retro fitting can not work but it's unnecessary complicated and there are simply more things that can go wrong.
Jenny, a picture of custom orthopedic lasts won't be all that helpful. I have some stock lasts in storage, will try to get to them by the end of the week and see if I can snap some pictures if no one els has been able to get one up. (If anyone wants to post a picture I'd be happy to add the comments, I'd be looking for a shot from the top straight down with the last over the outline with marked treadline)
The topline tape has a tendency of bulging up, especially if you use glue on it, just use the self stick side, no extra glue needed. If you feel it needs some use rubber cement, it won't make the needle gum up as much when you sew through it. As long as the tape lays reasonably smooth the remainder of the puckers will come out when you last as Tim pointed out.
I disagree with Tim in that narrowing the cone will increase the grip of the shoe on the foot. Sure if the last is to long it won't do much good but nothing will sort of correcting the length of the last first. With the narrower cone the top part of the counter (as long as you make the counter long enough) will grip the heel from the sides above the heel bone. Over time this grip will soften but as long as the shoe is well balanced and has a good shank it will re-grip the heel as soon as the foot presses the sole to the floor.
Be sure to check your measurements when you narrow the cone more and adjust where needed!
You started out with a very wide last based on the mold of your foot and did at first not take in the sides. If you remember how that was compared to what you have now you will see and feel that the current shape has a better grip on your heel and put less pressure on the sensitive area in the back.
At one time shoes were “invented”, before that there only was barefoot and humanity survived. Thank goodness for innovation or we'd all be unemployed here.
The just of it, don't settle and keep looking to improve!
This got a little longer than I had expected. I really did not mean to climb all the way up the soapbox
and hope I didn't unnecessary complicate the issues. Thanks to all who stuck with it and read down this far.
Rob
Based on the picture it looks like the 5mm offset at the heel you mentioned before is based on the position of the feather line, not the back of the last. That would explain why I think 5 mm is to much at the heel height Jenny is using. Let me know if I see it wrong but that's what it looks like in the pictures.
A quick comment on the post from Aug. 5th on the orthotics, you're right that when the heel on an orthotic has to much rounding in the back it rarely serves a function and often does pull the foot forward, out of the shoe's heel counter.
The cupping on the sides of the heel however are important in controlling the foot.
When making orthotics for factory produced shoes you need much more heel cup to be effective. In custom shoes made on custom lasts the fit of the shoes is much better so there is less rotation to begin with so you need less material to control that rotation.
Just as with heel counters in a shoe, the sides get structural strength from the 3 dimensional shape around the heel so you can not totally take away the cup in the back and expect the sides to stand up. The key is to keep it as low as possible, grinding them off will negatively effect the function of the orthotics and the comfort of the shoes.
Another excellent reason for a rounded bottom of the heel, as you find in orthotics, is that feet are much more comfortable on a contoured footbed. It helps with pressure distribution and supports the feet. With small adjustments you can correct excess proration, increase stability in the rearfoot and offload the forefoot.
When talking about orthotics it is important to know what the intention of the orthotic is. Often an orthotic that is made with a sizable heel cup has the purpose to control the heel position at heelstrike. If the position of the heel is controlled when the foot first hits the ground it will not deviate as much from the "ideal" position so you have to force less correction in a later stage of the gait cycle.
Making the shoe with extra space and retro fitting an orthotic is not an ideal situation in my opinion. Personally I would prefer to build a custom last based on the contour of the foot and build a footbed and a shoe over that. Not that retro fitting can not work but it's unnecessary complicated and there are simply more things that can go wrong.
Jenny, a picture of custom orthopedic lasts won't be all that helpful. I have some stock lasts in storage, will try to get to them by the end of the week and see if I can snap some pictures if no one els has been able to get one up. (If anyone wants to post a picture I'd be happy to add the comments, I'd be looking for a shot from the top straight down with the last over the outline with marked treadline)
The topline tape has a tendency of bulging up, especially if you use glue on it, just use the self stick side, no extra glue needed. If you feel it needs some use rubber cement, it won't make the needle gum up as much when you sew through it. As long as the tape lays reasonably smooth the remainder of the puckers will come out when you last as Tim pointed out.
I disagree with Tim in that narrowing the cone will increase the grip of the shoe on the foot. Sure if the last is to long it won't do much good but nothing will sort of correcting the length of the last first. With the narrower cone the top part of the counter (as long as you make the counter long enough) will grip the heel from the sides above the heel bone. Over time this grip will soften but as long as the shoe is well balanced and has a good shank it will re-grip the heel as soon as the foot presses the sole to the floor.
Be sure to check your measurements when you narrow the cone more and adjust where needed!
You started out with a very wide last based on the mold of your foot and did at first not take in the sides. If you remember how that was compared to what you have now you will see and feel that the current shape has a better grip on your heel and put less pressure on the sensitive area in the back.
I am also comforting myself with the knowledge that at one time shoes were symmetrical, so obviously the treadline couldn't match the foot perfectly, and yet the human race survived!
At one time shoes were “invented”, before that there only was barefoot and humanity survived. Thank goodness for innovation or we'd all be unemployed here.
The just of it, don't settle and keep looking to improve!
This got a little longer than I had expected. I really did not mean to climb all the way up the soapbox
and hope I didn't unnecessary complicate the issues. Thanks to all who stuck with it and read down this far. Rob
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relferink
Re: One "Last" Question
A quick question on the intellectual property of lasts. Am I correct that they are subject to copyright as they are a tangibly expression by an “artist”? Do the same copyright laws apply that govern writings and music with the same copyright expiration policies?
Thanks
Rob
? Do the same copyright laws apply that govern writings and music with the same copyright expiration policies? Thanks
Rob
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artzend
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Re: One "Last" Question
Rob,
Yes you are right about the featherline, sorry, I always had a last to show people what I was on about before.
I have dealt with a lot of orthotics over the years and a lot of them were too wide, sticking way out past the foot. I was not allowed to cut them back and had to make shoes to fit the things. I have no problem with them being cupped, but they don't need to extend out past the foot surely. The heel is so fleshy that it spreads out and is held by the inside of the shoe, therefore the orthotic would not need to be bigger than the last. You would not feel the edge of the cup I wouldn't think. It would make the job of fitting them into a shoe a lot easier. I worked on adding material to the cone because the orthotic regularly pushed the foot forward quite a lot.
I didn't mean that narrowing the cone would not tighten up the fit of the last, but in this case it won't help if the heel to ball measurement is not fixed, as this looks like the main problem.
Tim
Yes you are right about the featherline, sorry, I always had a last to show people what I was on about before.
I have dealt with a lot of orthotics over the years and a lot of them were too wide, sticking way out past the foot. I was not allowed to cut them back and had to make shoes to fit the things. I have no problem with them being cupped, but they don't need to extend out past the foot surely. The heel is so fleshy that it spreads out and is held by the inside of the shoe, therefore the orthotic would not need to be bigger than the last. You would not feel the edge of the cup I wouldn't think. It would make the job of fitting them into a shoe a lot easier. I worked on adding material to the cone because the orthotic regularly pushed the foot forward quite a lot.
I didn't mean that narrowing the cone would not tighten up the fit of the last, but in this case it won't help if the heel to ball measurement is not fixed, as this looks like the main problem.
Tim