One "Last" Question

[jenny_fleishman]

I can't take total credit for the idea--Someone on this board, I think, mentioned achieving bubble-free by putting their mold on top of a washing machine to vibrate the bubbles out!

re build-ups. I've added on to my Liquid Last lasts with more Liquid Last. It bonds great. Only problem is it is rather runny till it sets, so tends to drip downward. I deal with this by positioning the add-on area as horizontal as possible, and tilting the last slightly one way, then the other, to counteract the dripping. You can only build up a small amount at a time, certainly no more than 1/8."

Craig, I looked on Smooth-On's site for VytaFlex 30 and came up empty. Can you post a link to the right page? Can you use your molds more than once? Thanks.

Jenny

[romango]

I don't use foaming polyurethane products because they get hot and exert outward pressure. The STS socks will soften and deform. You can use foams with the more rigid plaster casts. 300Q gets hot too but, since it sets up in 30 sec, it it already set by the time the STS sock starts to get too warm. So the 'Q' part of 300Q is important with STS socks.

Craig: The subtractive approach would work but the toe mold would have to be leak-proof as 300Q is very mobile. I have used Bondo (nasty stuff) and Apoxie Sculpt successfully.

[relferink]

Rick,

I really should try that 300Q. I use the foaming PU. Once I have the plaster last I cast it with plaster bandages, take the last out and and add some more plater bandages, than put it in a bucket full of sand to offset the pressure of the foam pushing the mold out. With plaster the heat is not an issue but if you don't address the pressure you end up with a very discorded last.

I just now realize that in your post from April 19th you show a picture of a last made with 300Q. When I first saw it I assumed it was plaster, of course I should have paid attention to the description spelling it out.
Is the weight comparable to a wooden last?

Thanks

Rob

[romango]

300Q last is quite a bit heavier than an equivalent wood last.

[j1a2g3]

I was wondering if anyone has tried using some form of wood putty instead of plaster or 300q? It's just a thought! Joel

[jenny_fleishman]

Joel, I have used Durhams Water Putty. I actually use it to make my molds, too. I thought it was ideal for the lasts as well, because it has no shrinkage.

That is, I thought it was ideal until I was lasting a shoe and felt a bunch of lumps in the vamp area. Took awhile before the lightbulb went on, and I realized the last had cracked in two pieces at the treadline! [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img] That was the last time (no pun intended) I tried that!

I think the water putty is probably less brittle than plaster, but beside the cracking, I found little pieces would sometimes chip off at the entry point of tacks.

Durhams comes as a powder and you mix it with water like plaster.

However, I do still use Durhams to make the original last prototype. I am partway done with lasts for my sister. I started with plaster bandage casts around her feet, poured them with Durhams (1 pt water to 2 pts Durhams or it's too thick to pour), and then use thicker Durhams (1:3) to build up the toebox, etc. You can also add food dye to make the built-up areas a different color than the original cast of the foot. I have also used something called DAS, which handles kind of like clay and can be bought at art supply stores, to build up the toe area. Never tried to last a shoe on that, though, just used it to shape the prototype last.

Then I make a 3-piece mold of the last out of Durhams, and pour Liquid Last into the mold. This is where I have the slight shrinkage problem with the Liquid Last. The molds can be used several times, if you are careful, which is nice. You do have to use something for mold release--I found melting wax on the molds works best.

If anyone has tried wood putty (not water putty), I, too, am interested in hearing how it worked!

Jenny

[corvin]

Rick, duct tape and a flat piece of a milk carton to make something like a cone for a dog's head should hold the liquid long enough for it to set up. The last would point upwards. Just a suggestion to take or leave.

[romango]

I tried mixing Apoxie Sculpt A/B in ratio of 60/40, as suggested by the manufacturer, to make it a little more nailable. This worked well!

This stuff is great for forming toes on cast foot forms. It is very nice to work with. No vapors. Quite non-toxic, as these things go. For just toes, it goes a long way. So it is not costly.

Give it a try, if you are interested. http://www.avesstudio.com/

[paul]

I hope I'm not presuming, by moving this here. I just want to get it right.

I have been one of those waiting patiently, (for an eternity it seemed) for last orders to be filled. But along I knew Bill had much to offer me in my search for the perfect fit time after time. Olga is the result of all our waiting. ANd so much more, as Bill deilvers the fruits of his own labors. We'll think of these as the old days, very soon.

I recently had the opportunity to take Olga for a spin, as a guinea pig. At least that's how Bill called me. I said I like Beta test better. No matter. But I'd like to share my experience with you all.

First of all, I use DW's last models for my boots;

So, the conversation with my customer included his wish for 10/8" heel, so GFS 242. I highlighted that first on Olga's Search page. Then I began to fill in my "Available Fit Points". I had previously converted all my measurements to metric (by multiplying inches and their fractions by 25.4. It's that simple. My customers ball measurement, for example, of 10 3/8" (10.375&#34 X 25.4mm, equaled 263mm (rounded down). And so forth


So I entered each of those measures in the boxes provided. I got pretty quick with practice. When all the fields were full I clicked Search. There were many choices of sizes showing how close different stock sizes were to my search criteria. I decided that, since I wanted to build my inventory of stock lasts, I'd order the one requiring the least grind off. My best choice was 10B, and all it wanted was a reduction of 1.8mm in the Low Instep. Look at a ruler, it ain't much. So I'll not worry about that.


Now I will have considerable build up in the ball. It wasn't even filled in in the results column, but we usually have to do that anyway, don't we? I was told a few years ago that we get faster at this with experiance. My most recent two pair of lasts in preparation, went much faster because of my sequencing of my layers. (I'll gladly share my approach to building up lasts anytime.)

But I feel this is finally a solution to our dilemma of learning 'last speak'. How frustrating it has been for me to learn how to ask for what I want to receive. If I had used a Ritz Stick or even a Brannock Devise to order a last for Jim, it would have probably been a 12.5D, and he would have been swimming in 'em!

But using Sabbages System and being deliberate about where I took my measurements from the foot, I'm able to tell Olga Jim's exact measurments and know just what I'll have to do when it arrives, in what Bill has told me could be as little as 2 to 4 weeks. Won't that be fantastic!

Thank you, Bill! I know I'm not the only one ready for all that this could become.

PK

[relferink]

Bill,

Awesome tool. It's not quite fare to dangle a piece of candy like this in front of us and ask for patience but I completely understand that you don't want to roll it out before it's ready. Based on the video it seems worth the wait. Great plan to incorporate Lightbeam.
Does Olga stand for something or just chosen as a fond memory of an old flame?

Rob

[btippit]

Rob,

No Russian or Swedish memories here. OLGA is an acronym for Online Last Grading Application. Travas came up with that one so maybe he's the one with the memories. I thought it was a great way to describe the program.

I'll try to get our little debutante ready for her grand arrival as soon as I can. I really appreciate your enthusiasm and kind words.

I should also say that once OLGA was ready for a test drive, Paul was very helpful with the test drives, giving me a bootmaker's perspective and several of the changes that were made have been as a direct result of his suggestions. Even after it's officially released we'll keep making adjustments as often as we can and of course, fix the inevitable bugs.

Bill “The Last Man Standingâ€

[shoestring]

PK,
Am I reading you right as to say that giving measurements to OLGA has made a "Ritz Stick or Brannock" almost obsolete in custom shoe making.

Ed

[btippit]

I hope no one minds if I jump in here. Ed, OLGA is only intended to relate the foot measurements entered to the corresponding measurements on each last size returned in the results page. Any interpretation of how any of this relates to the Ritz or Brannock is up to the boot/shoe maker. Personally I don't see any connection between either of those sizing instruments and custom footwear. With the decrease in quality and fit standards over the last 20 years and the lack of attention paid to last development by so many manufacturers, those devices barely relate to mass produced shoes anymore, let alone custom shoes, which by definition are no size at all. That last part of course, is just my opinion.

Bill “The Last Man Standingâ€

[paul]

Well, you make a good point with your opinion, Bill.

Ed, my point in referencing those devises was to show how far off I would have been, had I not learned what I have about custom boot making and the lasts we use for this.

Once I started seeing the truth behind the edict to custom makers to "fit what's there", I realized any number from any devise was going to be useless to me in finding the best last for any individual person.

As custom makers it is virtually beside the point to us, to ask 'what size are they?". The only reason I have a Ritz Stick in my shop is for the handmade fire boots made by White's Boots of Spokane Wa. I am a dealer for them and have found it works with the last models they use, and that it is the basis of the grading chart they provide to their dealers. And even so, I'll often prefer to fit a half size shorter, depending on the toe outline.

This chart was actually my attraction in the first place, to the concept of Olga, way back a couple of years ago when Bill and I started working thru my last education. There is alot of the mysterie taken out of the learning curve by Olga and what Bill and Travas have worked up for us.


PK

[shoestring]

Bill & PK,

You both have cleared up the cloud in my head,thanks for answering and clarifying and size/fit.

Ed

[jenny_fleishman]

I need help! I want to make the final adjustments to my lasts, and am having trouble determining the proper place to start the tread area.

My second and third pair of shoes both have wedge soles, which are unforgiving if the tread area starts too far forward.

In an attempt to determine the proper area, I made a heel the proper height for the lasts, put it at the back of a box, and made a footprint of the ball of my foot with my heel on the heel, and against the back of the box. The footprint is a little messy (OK, perhaps lipstick is not the best stuff to use for that!), so I then marked with blue pen the back of the area where the ball of my foot was contacting the ground.

5261.jpg

I then set my lasts on the heels with the back of the lasts against the back of the box, and compared where the forefoot of the last first contacts the ground. I found the spot is farther forward on the last than it is on my footprint.

In the following photos, "1" indicates where I'm thinking the tread area should start (ie contact the ground), and "2" is where it currently contacts the ground.

Here is the outside of the last:

5262.jpg

5263.jpg

Here is the inside of the last:

5264.jpg

5265.jpg

The difference is more pronounced on the outside
of last, but both outside and inside are off, if this is an effective method of determining the tread area. I think I might have started the tread area at the treadLINE, but it seemed OK with my fitter shoes with stacked heels. At one point I thought I had the tread area too far back and moved it forward (big mistake??).

Basically, I have no idea if my logic is correct, so all advice appreciated! Thanks.

Jenny

[artzend]

Jenny,

I would think from those photos that the tread lines that you have marked on the outsides of the last are too far back.

This may be the reason you are having problems with the shoes fitting properly as the heel to ball distance looks wrong. I would say that the tread position looks as though it should be about 3/4" forward of those #2 marks. I am not sure what the number 1 mark is but that should not be on the ground at that position unless the photo is a bit distorted.

Is the blue line where your joint is? Or is it behind the joint line? It will be hard to match up if you don't get your joint positions lined up.

It is probably not accurate to try to line up your last that way. If you have a foot outline, place the seat of the last 5mm/3/16" forward of the outline at the back and both the joint of the last and your foot joint should be in the same place. It is not necessary to stand on a heel to work that out.

That will give a better indication of what to do next.

Tim

[dw]

I would say from the lipstick print (not all that different from a pedograph) that the blue line at the back of the lipstick smear might...might...represent the back of the tread area.

The tread line is probably about an inch forward--right in the middle of the medial bulge that seems to be in the lipstick smear, and running across the paper to the lateral bulge that looks to be at about a 17 degree angle from the medial joint.

If I am interpreting the data you've presented here correctly, the last is about right. But, if I can offer this reminder (which you may not need) the treadline is that line that describes the joints as they go across the foot. As such, it is in the middle of the "ball" and in the middle of the tread area. We like knowing how wide the tread area is but, at least at this level, it is almost inconsequential in comparison to knowing where the treadline, itself, is.

Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't. But I hope it does...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

PS....looking more closely, I would agree with Tim's observation that the medial #2 is too far back both for the last and for the foot. And the lateral #2 is just about right.



Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, but I still don't understand [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img] why (or if) the shoe sole should start rising up from the ground at the jointline, even though the sole of the foot doesn't. The foot continues to contact the ground behind the jointline. Shouldn't the sole of the shoe have the same contour, and not start rising up farther forward than the foot does?

Is the treadline AT the jointline?

It seems logical to me that the whole tread AREA of the last should contact the ground, and start rising behind it, but if the last starts rising up at the treadline instead of the back end of the tread area, this wouldn't be the result.

It sounds like you are both saying that the last should rise up starting at the treadline, or am I misinterpreting your responses?

I am so confused! (If part of the problem is that I'm misusing terminolgy, please correct me!)

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

On the last, when it is sitting at the proper heel height, it should make contact with the "ground" (shelf, table, whatever) at the treadline only.

The foot, inside the shoe, is supported all around the treadline...the tread area...by the insole. In theory, the foot is contacting "ground" throughout the tread area, it's just not contacting the horizontal surface upon which you are standing.

The fact that the tread area contacts, and lipstick prints, when you are standing...even with a heel block...is due to the fact that the foot is not properly supported in the arch/shank area.

All that said, the last does not make an abrupt trasition from the treadline to an ascending line going toward the heel...or the toe. It is a fair curve...meaning that the transition is gradual. On a foot or on a shoe this gradual trasition may seem to produce more of a tread area than a tread line but on a hard static last it really is a line tangent to "ground.'

Think of a billiards ball versus a soft rubber ball...when the cue ball hits a billiards ball it is making contact at one point and one point only (understanding that and where that point is is 90% of the game of pool) and you can see that point if you have sharp eyes. But substitute a soft rubber ball and when the cue ball makes contact, it will seem as if it is making contact across a wider area (at the actual instant of contact it is not, but a nanosecond later the rubber ball compresses and the area of contact broadens considerably).

Probably a better illustration is to realize that the backpart of the last is the ground under the backpart of the foot raised to heel height. And the forepart of the last is the ground under the front of the foot raised to toe spring. Both these areas are inclines that intersect at the treadline and then rise to their respective heights.

I don't know if any of this helps but that's the best I can explain it right at the moment. Remember that the last is not the foot and should not be thought of as being even a model of the foot. The foot should be able to be found inside the last but they are not the same....neither in function nor in esthetics.

Yes, the treadline is the same as the joint line.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

Jenny,

Yes the tread line/joint line is the important bit. The toe of the last should start to roll up from there. The only bit of the last that touches is the joint line. The upward rolling angle is to aid in walking in a shoe which behaves differently from a bare foot. In effect you start rolling the shoe forward when you start walking. This is the toe spring in action.

Don't worry about getting the terminology wrong, I think you are right with that.

Tim

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks again. Tim, it's not the toe spring I'm concerned about. It's the other side of the tread line (towards the heel), that seemed to cause a problem with the first pair of wedge-soled shoes I made. I felt like I was walking on the wedge with the ball of my foot, concluding that the sole started sloping upward (toward the heel) too far forward.

The next (most recent) pair I made, I didn't change the last, but tried to end the wedge farther back, which seemed to help.

My inclination right now is to leave the treadline where it is and make the next pairs of shoes with stacked heels, which I think are more forgiving, as long as the shank doesn't come too far forward.

I'll bring the lasts to the HCC meeting and hope to get some expert opinions there.

But if anyone has any more suggestions, advice or comments now, please go ahead and post! Thanks.

Jenny

[paul]

Congratulations Jenny,

Your perseverance is commendable.

I know it's very satisfying for you.

PK

[jenny_fleishman]

Yes, and hopefully someday soon, satisfying for my feet, too!

Jenny