The Crispin Colloquy

Jenny, here's my technique for forming counters from veg tan leather that may work for your counter with a cutout for your heel issue.

This is a shoemaking technique I use for women's shoes. It will probably give all the authentic bootmakers heart failure.

I pre-form the counter, wet,over the last (before I start lasting the shoe) and let it dry.

Although I start out hammer-tapping the wet leather to conform to the last, I've found a
"bandage" system with double sided Velcro works really well to snug the counter to the last profile.

Turn the fuzzy side of the Velcro to the wet leather. Pull the straps around to control the fullness where you need. Because the Velcro sticks to itself, you can apply alot of tension.
Let the counter dry with the straps in place. I usually check in about 5-6 hours to see if everything is working and rewrap.

I also use the Velcro when I'm making shankboards from Texon and greenboard

Double sided Velcro in 25 ft rolls is available on Ebay if you can't find some in a store near you.

Georgene,

I avoided the heart failure ...but I did get a rush when I saw your photos cuz, rank beginner (in shoemaking) that I am, that's the way I would do it. Sans the velcro though.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Georgene, that's similar to what I've been doing except I use a few tacks around the edges of the counter. I'll just have to play with the cutout system, or mayble I'll just thin it in the sensitive area even thinner than the last pair I made. If the adjustments I made to the lasts do prevent slipping at the heel, it may not be as much of an issue.

I am extra anxious because I want this pair to be comfortable enough to do a lot of walking in when I go on vacation in July. The shoes I have been wearing for a couple of years have now have not only cracked through the sole, but on one shoe, the insole board. Not much holding them together at this point!

Jenny

Guys,

You dont actually need to pre form the stiffener. If you last with it wet it conforms exactly as it should and the upper and lining hold it in place where it can set. That is assuming that it is leather and not leatherboard.

Great idea for shankboard shaping though.

Tim

Jenny,

If you are worried that you can't get the counter securely to the last if you cut out part to the top that would fall over the bone there are 2 things you can do. You could not pr-form the counter as Tim suggested, just last it and let it set up with the upper holding the counter in place. This is a technique used mostly in a production setting since it safes the time of first forming the counter. Lasting is a little more challenging as your counter does not just "fall" in place on the last.
The second way is do what you have done, skive the counter really thin over the area you want to eliminate. Once the counter is set you use your grinder or a dremmel like tool took take out that area.
If you tack the counter anyway as it is setting up you could just prep the counter with the drop in the top line and put a quick tack on either side to hold it in place.

Georgene, any particular reason you use the counter "inside out" with the flesh side to the foot? My experience is when the shoe gets older the counter has a tendency to soften up some and slightly crimp in on the grain side. If you reverse the counter you will create little extra "grip" on the foot. You will have to scrape the grain side with a piece of glass as you skive the counter or the grain will become stiff and may irritate the foot. The Velcro is a great idea, I bet if you put a tack on the instep of the last you can pull the Velcro back to font to get the top of the counter securely against the last. I have used bicycle wheel inner tubes in that way. Must be a Dutch thing with all the bikes there.

Rob

Rob, do you remove the grain completely from the counter? I just broke it up with rough sandpaper, which made it more flexible, but didn't completely remove the grain. Would removing it completely make a big difference?

If you remove the grain completely, is the grain side still different than the flesh side, or wouldn't it be completely reversible?

Jenny

Jenny,

Do not remove the grain side totally, this is what gives the leather most of it's strength so don't loose that. You could use sandpaper but a piece of glass, broken off with a nice sharp edge works better. Wet the counter before scraping it with glass and it will take off just the very top layer that's to stiff. When you grind you can not "feel" the material in a similar way and you would likely take off to much. If your extremely careful with the sandpaper you will probably take off to little. To make up for that you would go with a little heavier counter than you would have to. Using glass to scrape it allows you to get a counter that has has optimal strength with minimal thickness

Rob

Tim, Rob, all
I use the pre-formed counter in lined, women's cement construction shoes. By pre-forming there are fewer things that need to fall into place or get mucked up. None of those unexpected crinkles or slightly not stuck down counter edges that really ruin your day when they want to show through.

I'm not wet lasting the upper, so the counter wouldn't be forming up at the same time.

I put the counter grain side out because that's the way I learned and I'm putting the counter onto a fully pulled over lining, usually pigskin. The counter is not touching the foot.

So from the last out its lining-counter-upper. Perhaps we're also using different terms. Frank Jones would say I'm making a pre-formed "stiffener" rather than a counter.

It's a system that works for me for shoes made a pair at a time. Georgene

Georgene,

I realize you line your quarters and probably the whole shoe but I would still turn the counter to have the grain side to the foot. It will never touch the foot through the lining. He shape of the counter however is meant to secure the rearfoot in the shoe. By putting the grain side to the foot it's my experience that the counter will maintain it's hold on the heel longer.
I do agree that pre-forming your counters is easier but it would be good to learn both techniques so if you are ever in a pinch you have the option of going either way.. Do you always use leather counters?

Rob

Georgene,

As far as I am concerned the way you put the stiffener in is correct, and I never wet last either, there is no need. The reason for the flesh side in is that it can bond better to the counter lining, as the flesh side will hold paste better than the grain side does. You don't need to scrape the grain side, I never have. With a good bond to the counter lining you don't get the counter lining letting go later so the bagging problems shouldn't arise.

I am just finishing a video on lasting and it will be online soon, hopefully it will answer some questions.

Tim

This is the great beauty (and strength) of this forum...we all have different ways of doing things and as long as they respect the materials and the Trade and the people we serve, they all have their attraction and their place. In my not-so-humble opinion, I think that almost no technique is wrong as long as you can justify it in terms other than convenience.

Making boots, I always turn the grain side of the stiffener toward the foot. And when I make lace-ups, I make them the same as I make pull-ons--no counter pocket and the stiffener grain-side to the foot.

I hear and see the rationale for turning the stiffener flesh-side to the foot, as Tim describes it, and especially with paste...although I might wonder if substituting all-purpose cement might make that a little less compelling.

On the other hand, I hear and see Robert's rationale for turning the stiffener grain-side to the foot...it is the way I was taught and the way I would do it if I were to take my best shot in the absence of all other input.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

I always use paste because you need slippage when lasting, and the slow drying properties mean that if you need to pull things to bits and re-last, you have time. Once it all dries, it forms a good bond and remains solid.

With cement, you lose both those factors, not to mention the fumes. I have lasted using cement but it is not as easy when lasting conventionally. When I made roller blade boots and had to last an upper to a carbon fibre base, I used wet contact cement and it worked as long as I did everything right and fast, but the fumes were just too much and I don't think they were healthy to work in.

Tim

Tim, what kind (brand) of paste do you use, and is it strong enough to hold together a cement-down construction shoe, including the sole?

Jenny

Jenny,

The paste I use is a PVA based woodworking glue mixed in with some sort of cereal paste, such as wallpaper paste or just a children's play paste for sticking paper together. If you just use PVA on it's own it is a bit sticky and really needs a bit of slippage added,as it is water based it mixes ok.

I have at times used Dextrin and rye flour paste with a bit of carbolic acid to stop mould. I have seen people using latex to dip stiffeners in but that was in a factory situation and we were using pre formed stiffeners made of leatherboard. I found latex goes off too quickly anyway. I have seen tins of lasting paste, but figured that it was really only pva and wallpaper paste or something like it.

The paste is only used for bonding the upper, stffener (and toe puff/box) and lining together. You still use contact adhesive for bonding the upper to the insole and attaching the sole.

Tim

Sounds like a lot of work. What I have done with the counters was use Barge, but put the pieces together right away instead of waiting till they are tacky. That way it is possible to do a little repositioning if necessary.

However, I've been curious how this affects the bonding of the two pieces. For heel counters I figure it's not that critical if the bond is a little weaker, but still curious. Anyone know? Thanks.

Jenny

DW

As for stiffeners/counters being 'against' the foot/heel, This is the correct method for old timey boots at least.
Here is why: 1- The rough flesh side against the heel prevents slippage. 2. If the grain side is against the heel it will eventually crack from sweat etc., the flesh side will never crack. 3. As in the heyday of great bootmaking, I use heavy innersole or sole leather for my counters. The flesh side has to be pared (skived) all the way around. This leaves a bevel, and if the counter were to be attached to the inside of the boot 'flesh in', grain to the heel, you would get an unsightly ridge where the counter was pared.
I also set my innersoles flesh up to the foot when I do the odd welted soles. This is for several reasons: 1. Sweat from the foot won't crack the leather. 2. It is stronger to stitch a welt through the grain side. I also heavily wax my flesh up innersoles so they are really smooth.
JesseLee

Tim, Jenny,

I think HirschKleber is used for this kind of application by some shoemakers. It is technically (a tip of the hat to Frank Jones) a glue but I'm not sure what the base is. Heck, it might be potato starch for all I know.

Certainly in the same category as dextrine and rye flour paste.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Jesse,

Hmmm...I've never tried it like that...just wasn't taught that way. But you make some good points. I've been told that the German shoemakers often mount the insole flesh to foot. I'm gonna have to try that and the flesh to foot heel stiffener, too.

But, I will say that if one breaks the grain as Robert suggests, I have never, in 35+ years experience, seen a heel stiffener that cracked. Not ot say that it couldn't and doesn't...I've just never seen it with mine. And as far as insoles go, I tallow my insoles so I don't see much cracking there either except after long years of wear and heavy perspiration. Although I used to see cracking insoles a lot on commercial boots (back when I did repair).

That said, what do you wax your insoles with? Would you mind sharing the technique...I, for one, am intrigued.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Jenny,

BTW...commercial wallpaper paste is essentially a flour paste or starch paste. It should mix up and function just about like any of the old time recipes for rye flour or potato starch glues.

Now that I think about it I think HirschKleber is a hide glue.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

Yes any starch paste is fine but I thinik it is better if you add PVA to it.

I have never scraped the grain side of the stiffener, I can't remember what Golding said but I don't think he mentioned it. George Koleff never did it either. I have never seen a stiffener crack, it doesn't get any work once it is in place and dried.

I always sand or scrape my insoles and put the grain side up. I know they crack if you don't scrape them.

Tim

Tim, do you sand your insoles with fine sandpaper, or is it better to have deep, visible gouges in the top grain from rough sandpaper? Thanks.

DW, this has probably been addressed before, but how do you tallow your insoles? Is treating them with Lexol Neatsfoot Oil good enough, and if so, do you just treat the grain side? Might treating with Neatsfoot Oil make the Barge not adhere as well?

Jenny

Jenny,

I sometimes just scrape the surface of the damp insole or use a medium paper and just take off the shiny surface. You should not need to gouge it.

For the sort of shoe you are making I would not use tallow or anything else on the insoles. Your glue will not adhere. DW makes an entirely different sort of footwear and it is probably more applicable for him to treat his insoles. Also, if you are going to put socks in your shoes, any grease will stop the paste from sticking.

Tim

Jenny,

I simply warm rendered sheep or beef tallow to the point of clarity and paint it onto the scraped (or sanded) grain surface of the insole. Most of it will be absorbed into the insole. some of it will not but a very judicious application of warm air from a careful proximity to the hearth (or from a hairdryer) will drive the surplus in. One application will be enough but sometime I can put as many as three coats on and it will all be absorbed. I do not coat the flesh-side, so cement is not a problem. That said, I do cement heel pads into my boots on occasion. The cement will stick fine as long as the tallow has been fully absorbed. I've always maintained that if you use no nails and sand the insides to eliminate any peg tips, you don't need heel pads. But the customers expect them, so I put them in.

Tallowing the insole is an old process that not only encourages the formation of a footbed, but creates a reservoir of conditioning in the insole that prevents drying and cracking. It must be remembered however, that heat is the great enemy of veg tanned leather and that hot oil holds heat better than water--it is easy to damage an insole with heat and/or hot tallow.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Georgene,

Apropos of "stiffeners" vs. "counters," I am currently trying to scan another volume of Golding for conversion to pdf and posting on the home page. As I was perusing the chapters ahead of me... there, on pp.133 of Vol. I, was this sentence:

"The general rule now is for the stiffeners, or counters as they are often called...." (emphasis mine)

Circa...what? 19-teens? (no date in this volume) But that pretty much validates "counter" as an acceptable alternative to "stiffener" in my view.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Just for fun! Came across this novelty clock site while looking for travel alarm clocks. Check these out!

http://www.miniclock.com/store/mini-clock-miniature-country-western-cowboy-boot- p-1803.html

http://www.miniclock.com/store/mini-clock-miniature-ladies-enamel-high-heel-shoe -p-1499.html

I'm off on vacation for a couple days. Didn't quite finish my shoes--one more layer of soling to put on. Darn!

Jenny