The Crispin Colloquy

SD.28 Channel guide III

SD.28 Channel guide IV

Alasdair,

Pedersen parts made to order sound like they'll be pricey, but keep us posted. So far mine is not missing any and none are broken/wore badly *touch wood*. Needles are my main interest, and if #7 and $8 are it, LMK prices (PM) and availability. Groz Beckert were the last manufacturer of Junker needles, so by all means see what might be lurking in various old stores before you try to make your own.

BTW, your front needle-plate (1 screw missing) is marked "5&6" for those needle sizes. It will not stitch well with #7 & #8 needles, as they rub on the back of this plate which flexes them into contact with the passing shuttle hook point. IOW the 5&6 size plate will push a 7&8 needle too close to the shuttle.

Yes the lip of the channel gets mashed a bit in passing, but being damp (always stitch soles damp with this machine) it can be massaged easily back into shape and closed over as usual. I've never had a problem just hand-cutting the channel by-eye, just make it pretty deep and well defined, burnish it open with a bone/stick so the "tab" rides freely in it and the surface of the sole rests on the needle plate rather than held up in the air by the "tab" or you will get feeding problems by dragging on the "tab". Experiment on a lot of scrap to get the channel just the right depth. If you had extra needle-plates, you might dress another "tab" with a file for shallower channels, but the standard one works perfectly well in most cases I find.

Time zone difference is wild! "Call me yesterday....". PM a time or date to try, and I'll sit by the phone.

[post content deleted. I got an error trying to post the pictures]

(Message edited by amuckart on January 13, 2010)

I just heard back from Detlef who says that Groz Beckert are now totally sold out of everything except the #8, of which they have about 9000 left. This makes me sad, but I'll keep hunting. I'm going to order some #8s from him but probably not until March or so.

Thanks for the information about the front needle plate. I'm guessing that explains this damage to the shuttle carrier on mine:




I've got 306 photos of mine coming apart including detail photos of pretty much every bit of it. I'm in the process of annotating them and putting on Flickr. It hasn't had an easy life by the looks of things but it's restoreable. I just have to think about how much effort to put into it if I'm never going to be able to get useful needles for it.

[image post threw an error again]

(Message edited by amuckart on January 13, 2010)

Damage to my sd.28 shuttle carrier:

Alasdair/Al,

Thanks for all the great information posts!

I now believe I know enough on the needle plate to use it after some extended practice and possibly reproduce the plate if Alasdair ends up with high quotes from pedersen.

I may just have to try to reproduce one this week. It looks like two pieces of metal, cut out properly (which I can use my current needle plate as a reference for), ground down, bent a little, and welded together would give me something real close and not be too difficult.

You might take a look at the front needle plate. My plate has 5/6 on one side, but the plate can be rotated for 7/8 needles; 7/8 is printed on the other side. When flipped the 7/8 side is flat against the inside, while with the 5/6 there is a slight raised area.


Terry

Terry,

It's been so long since I messed with my Junker... good news that the little needle-bearing plate is reversible for the other 2 needle sizes. But the missing screw (metric threads) ought to be replaced for solid mounting. The needle actually rubs on this plate during operation, and if the wrong "squeeze" is used, it sure could jab the needle into the shuttle, or shuttle carrier

Alasdair, can you PM me with the price of those 9000 #8 Junker needles?

Why do feel like the only one using a Singer 153w102 cylinder bed to sew uppers (lol). I have the manual but does anyone have experience with this machine?

Tia

Hi Tita,

I don't sorry.

My experience is very limited, but from what I have seen I'm not sure how much walking foot machines get used for shoemaking. It seems to be a mix of roller feed for uppers and needle feed for outsoles.

If there's nobody on here who uses one you might have some luck over on the forums at leatherworker.net. They have a wide range of machines on there but it isn't specifically shoemaking.

Do you use it with the walking foot, and does that cause problems marking up the upper leather?

I finally got some needles for my Junker & Ruh today, courtesy of Mr Gordon Disher up in Auckland who was kind enough to sell me three of his store of #7 needles. Having seen them now I understand why the #8s are of limited use, they must be huge!

What I don't have for my machine though is a thread spool. Is there any chance someone who has one of the old wooden ones might be able to take measurements of it so I can turn one up?

Thanks.

I posted some pictures of my Junker & Ruh before and after I degreased and cleaned it. Here's one after stripping it down to individual components and getting the rust off:



It isn't cheap, but Evapo-Rust is magic for this kind of thing. Easier and cleaner than electrolysis and leaves a better surface on the cleaned parts. It also won't strip plating like electrolysis will.

Terry, I think the reversible needle plates might be a Pedersen innovation. My Junker & Ruh doesn't have any markings on the reverse side and doesn't seem to fit well if I turn it around.

I haven't heard back from Pedersen-spares yet. I sent the quote request in about 4 days ago.

Tita
I have used a walking foot post machine for years and have sewn hundreds of pairs of uppers on it. I have also used a cylinder arm for some pretty heavy brogan uppers. I have not used the machine you mention but with a cylinder arm you will have to do more manipulation of the upper as you sew it. They are great for oxfords and lining gibsons and derbys. If you are not sure how to sew a new style think it thru first and then see if you can manipulate the piece with out sewing yourself into a corner.
Tom

Dear Alasdair and Tom,

Thank you so much for your feedback. It is a roller foot walking needle? machine. I don't know the difference between walking foot and walking needle but the sewing shop I bought it from kept calling it a walking needle machine. It sews ok so far but I never hear anyone on the board speak of using a cylinder bed, walking needle machine. Tom you are right though you do have to maintain control of and manipulate the leather you're sewing or you'll be disappointed (lol). It does sew stiffer and heavier leather very well.

Tia

On a walking foot the foot has two parts that move indpendently a roller foot as the name implies has a wheel for a presser foot that does not move. There are machines that have a needle feed only where the work is moved for the next stitch by the action of the needle but they are mostly in heavier machines. Many walking foot machines also have a needle feed.
Tom

Hi all,

Well, I got the quote back from Pedersen-Scansteel for the SD.28/#308 spares. It was a bit eye-watering to say the least.

The total quote for two of each throat plate, two needle cover plates a tension disk and two veldschoen presser feet and shipping to New Zealand came to just shy of €2300! That's about an order of magnitude more than I'm comfortable with, but if anyone is sufficiently desperate for the parts I can forward them the quote and the contact details of the person I've been talking to. Like terry I think I'm going to hunt out decent pictures of the various presser feet and throat plates and have a go at making my own.

This is another case where getting a lot of people together and sending them a true bulk order would be beneficial. I imagine much of that unit cost is de-mothballing the machinery and the setup costs which just isn't worth it amortised over less than several tens of units at least.

It's just a shame they can't tool up, build 100 of everything and keep them in stock. If prices were 5-10% of what they quoted me I bet they'd sell out in under a year if word got out of their availability.

Alasdair,

You done an excellent job of cleaning up your SD-28. I will have to get some of the Evapo-Rust and clean up a few tools. Thanks for the information and post.

If it will help, the reverse side of my front needle plate is totally flat as in the above image. I have not tried to sew with it, but it seemed to position ok on the machine.

When I ordered some needles from Groz-Beckert, with Detief's help, I was able to get size #5, #7 and #8. As well my machine came with a needle in it.

In case if would be of interest or use, I used a caliper to measure the needles. I took the measurement even with the hole for the thread as a reference.

#5 - 1.52mm deep x 1.72mm wide
#7 - 1.94mm deep x 1.9mm wide
#8 - 2.07mm deep x 2.21mm wide

Given the lack of markings on the needle in the machine when I purchased it, it does not look like it was a groz-beckert needle. All the groz-beckert needles have some markings on the shank, and the other needle does not.

When measured, this needle was 1.96mm deep x 1.90 mm wide. This would place it at a depth equal to the #7's but a width more like a #6. This makes me wonder how standard the needles were.

Terry

Hi All,

I have been talking to a chap in Canada who has a small number of Junker & Ruh / Pedersen #308 parts to sell, including a couple of shuttle carriers. The parts aren't going real cheap, but they're a lot cheaper than buying them from Pedersen-spares!

If you're interested in getting hold of him please PM me with your email address, or email me on silver at where dot else dot net dot nz and I'll pass on his details.

I'm going on vacation in about 14 hours for a week, so I may be a little slow to respond, but I'll get back to you when I return.

Cheers.

My singer 31-20 does not want to sew light material!

I have tried lowering the roller foot and fooling with the tension but so far so not good.

Sews fine on the non-skived areas.

Help! any ideas before I destroy my uppers?
[besides not sewing on the uppers till I figure it out , ?

Courtney

How close is the roller to the needle? For light work you may need to bring it closer to the needle than with heavier work. What is happening is that the work is raising up slightly and either not forming a loop in the thread or distorting the loop to where the hook is catching the thread and creating the "Dread Thread Barf"
Tom

Thanks Tom, I stayed up late last night fooling with it and eventually got it to sew, [mostly], but I think moving the wheel will help, I will try that.

Thanks again,
Courtney

Did you get my letter?

In the same vein, you could also try tightening the presserfoot tension (downward pressure)

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Thanks D.W., I did that, I also moved the whole foot bar down a little. and lowered the thread tension alot.

Something I did helped a little.

I worry a little about too much pressure on the feed dog, should I?

I also said little in all 3 sentences.

Thanks