sewing machines

[dw]

Courtney,

The 134(r)is the right needle system (or one of them). Many of the needle system have several numeric designations.

The "r" indicates it is a round point needle. A round point needle will work fine on leather if the leather is not too hard. You would much rather have a triangle point needle however, as that is designed specifically for leather. I use round points sometimes, ie. when sewing delicate inlays on boots.

There are other leather points as well but they are becoming scarcer and scarcer as the manufacturers (like Schmetz) have decided to cut back on the number of needle points they offer.

A size 20 is a fairly large needle for shoe work or even boot work, but you should be able to sew quite thick.

Both your mom and pop mechanic and you are correct...it may be that the manual recommends a 16x87 but it is unlikely that a 16x87 needle system is even being made anymore. The 134 (aka 135x5) is what I use in all my 31's.

The Singer 31 class machine is unique in that it has a needle bar clamp into which the needle fits rather than having the needle bar bored for a specific shank size. This means that many needle systems can potentially be used provided that they are similar enough that a small adjustment in the height of the needle bar will bring the needle into sync with the bobbin hook.

If installing a roller foot, you don't necessarily have to change the feed dogs although it is recommended. But stripped holes may be the most disturbing thing you've mentioned so far about this machine. That said, a good mechanic ought to be able to fix that problem but it's hard to know without seeing it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tmattimore]

Courtney
134 or 135 sytems needle will work, along with many others once you learn how to set you needle bar. I currently use 134's on my 31-15 as well as two other machines, I reset them all so I would only need to stock one system
If your repair man re timed it how did he come to the conclusion that the threads on the presser foot bar are stripped? Search youtube for a video on adjusting the needle bar. This is the first and most important thing you can learn to do on the machine. If the threads on your presser bar are stripped new bars are easily obtained (one screw change out)or they can be retapped. When I bought my first machine I had a repair man deliberatly leave screws loose so I would bring the machine back. So the first thing to do is take off the side plate find the screw that holds the needle bar and see if it is tight. You now know about one third of what you need to know on adjusting the needle bar. If the machine now sews take off the plate over the feed dogs pull out the thread and cycle the machine observing the movements, pay attention to the relationship of the point of the shuttle hook and the eye of the needle. Bear in mind that there is only one screw holding the needle bar in place the relationship is changed by loosening that screw and raising or lowering the bar.I too have heard the idiocy that you heard that the repair man takes the thing apart and puts it back together. This is B.S. However there is no point in getting cross eyed with the guy just take what he says with a grain of salt. You may need to take the machine back to him some day.
Tom

(Message edited by tmattimore on November 14, 2009)

[courtney]

Thanks D.W. & Tom,

I have a feeling that the shuttle hook just was'nt tottally in good enough, is there a correct way of putting the shuttle race back together that could be communicated here?

The needle bar threads are fine, I guess one of the feed dog holes was worn on top, but I really dont trust alot of what this guy said anyway. At least he sold me needles that would work.

[tmattimore]

Courtney
Probably not with out a long and confusing instruction. Suffice it to say that I have not had to take the one on my machine apart for ten years or so.
Tom

[jnewburry]

Well I bought the correct needles and thread for my 31-15, I also found a much clearer diagram on timing the needle. Forgive me though for asking which way the grooves go, Long groove on left, with eye left to right? They are schmetz 16x2 #18 and I bought some #69 thread. Sorry if the answer is right above this post.
jim

[kieran_ionescu]

Jim,

I don't know which way the groove goes on that machine, but if you manually do a few stitches, you will know very quickly if it is oriented correctly. My machine won't complete the stitch if it is not set up right. So if one way doesn't work just try the other option. Hope that is useful and isn't advice that will damage your machine. Perhaps someone with that model will chime in...

[larrym]

Jim,

"the general rule of thumb is that the bottom scoop in the needle should face the bobbin, and the vertical groove on the other side of the needle should face away from the bobbin. The thread enters the needle from the vertical groove side and exits on the bottom scoop side."


Groove facing away from the machine, eye facing left to right.

[jon_g]

Jim,

You want to orient your needle so that the long groove is on the side that the thread come in from. I'm pretty sure that that is on the left on a 31-15. You're right the eye goes left to right.
Good Luck,
Jon

[jkrichard]

Jim,
Jon G. is correct. The long grove faces left and your thread should feed from left to right through the needle as well.

-Jeff

[jnewburry]

Thanks everyone,
I can now join two pieces of leather together , however i do have some fine tuning to do. The bobbin thread doesn't seem to be pulling up into leather as tight as top stitch. I am assuming this is a pressure issue, maybe tension on top thread not enough tension?
Thanks,
Jim

[artzend]

Jim

Yes, it sounds as though you don't have enough top tension, but before you do any adjusting, check that the thread is right in the middle of the two tension plates and that it goes through all the holes to pre-tension it.

Once that is checked then you can turn the knurled knob that puts pressure on the spring that presses on the plates. The threads should pull to the middle of the work.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

[paul]

I've also observed that there is another reason for a knot on the bottom.

This can occure when your bobbin thread is too big for the needle and top thread you're using. As in, your top thread is 33 using a size 10 needle, but your bobbin is #69.

Add to this some boardy leather and there ya go!

It's all part of a whole.

(Message edited by paul on November 24, 2009)

[artzend]

Paul

You can use different sized threads for top and bottom. I always use #50 cored thread with any of my top threads up to #21. With a nylon core it's really strong and you don't have to keep filling bobbins.

One problem you will have with top threads is if you use one that is too big for the needle, but that didn't sound like your problem.

Tim

Tim

[paul]

Tim,

I believe the problem the time I made this observation was more a matter of the needle, therefore the hole, being too small for the bobbin thread knot to pull in. I moved the needle up to a 12 and top thread to 46, and had no problem after that with my 69 bobbin.

Thanks,
Paul

[tia_brun]

Dear All,

I was wondering if anyone could tell me which machine they would purchase to get started:
Pfaff 491, Post, Roller foot
Singer 236W125 or 236G120, Post, Roller Foot
Consew 228R-11, Post, Roller Foot
Consew, 206RB-5, Flat Bed

I currently have a Singer 153W102 cylinder machine with a roller foot it's powerful and great but the stitch length will not adjust to lower than 1/8 of an inch. It drives me crazy because other than that I love the machine stitch quality and power. I've tried everything to reduce it and even called the guy I purchased it from but now i think that is one of it's refurbishing quarks as I have to adjust that myself with a screwdriver (lol).

Should I just use the one I have and or just purchase another? When I finally purchase another which should I purchase?

[amuckart]

I know this is a long shot, based on the contents of the archives, but I've just gotten my hands on a Junker & Ruh SD-28 in dirty but working condition. I've stripped it and will clean it tomorrow but it has no needles [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]

Does anyone have a source for needles, and maybe a copy or scan of the manual they could share so I can work out if the machine is actually complete?

Thanks.

[das]

Alasdair,

Congratulations! You are now the proud owner of one of the neatest little "obsolete" sole stitchers out there. I can photocopy my SD-28 manual for you and airmail it (PM for details, your snail address, etc.), but needles are another story. No joy. LMK if you find a source, my SD-28 needs needles as well. There was a sewing machine firm in the Netherlands selling all sorts of Jumker parts about 15 years ago--maybe Rob E. would know who? If you can get them, the various needle plates are good: flat work with adjustable edge depth guide; crepe rubber plate; channel plate for soles with pre-cut channel. The separate little wood handled bobbin winder crank is essential, as are spare new shuttle thread tension springs. If yours came with empty thread spools, or old thread spools, save them. You have to wind the thread onto those to fit under the machine as part of the needle thread tensioning system. Gotz used to sell linen Junker thread in two cords/sizes spooled on the right spools--works great.

[das]

While we're at it I need advice:

Landis 88 chain-stitch McKay is screwing-up. Needle picks up the thread loop fine for each stitch, but it won't let go of the loops sometimes. I can get a few good stitches, then it starts just collecting them on the barb of the needle. I have adjusted the "cast off" thingie as per the manual, but it is not covering the needle barb/hook on every stitch. There is a friction adjustment for the "cast off" but full on/off it still won't spring forcefully down over the needle barb each time. Help.

PS--I am currently using an old badly chewed-up needle plate with a worn/enlarged needle-hole for fear of messing up my good ones until I get the machine set up right in other regards. Could the nasty old needle plate be causing some of this? If the needle is flexing around in the enlarged hole, maybe it's creating a gap under the "cast off" letting the thread collect on the barb????? I'm stumped.

Oh for the old days of bribing Brother Bob Galvin to come over and adjust stuff for beers

[paul]

Al,

I've seen it where a burr on the needle plae of a Chanpion Harness Stitcher caused problems.

Maybe that's all it is. Just file it off.

Good Luck,
Paul

[dw]

Al,

A very generous fellow, by the name of Vinny Locasio (sorry if I mispelled your name Vinny), who sometimes looks in on this forum just called me from NY to suggest that you call Shoe Systems Plus over in Goshen NY. A fellow there by the name of Blaise (?) is supposed to be a real expert with these old machines. Worth a shot...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[amuckart]

Al, thanks for the response. I'll PM you with my address.

The machine I have has been rescued from a shelf in a shed where it seems to have been for the last 30 or so years. It has a lot of grime and old grease all over, and surface rust on the chromed parts but the basic mechanism is sound and the bobbin carrier is clean and rust free.

It didn't come with any extra bits, no bobbin crank, no thread spools and the tensioner on the thread spool holder is probably a goner, I won't know until I've cleaned it up.

I do want to get it going again but even if I can't I enjoy working on machines like this so it'll be fun either way.

[amuckart]

Hi all,

I recently made contact with a chap in New Zealand who used to run a small shoe factory and has some machines for sale and I'd like to get some advice on what might be good 'starter' machines for someone wanting to start making modern shoes. Assume at this stage I would be closing uppers by machine and making by hand including the outseam unless I can get my SD-28 going[1].

My first question is what types of machine should I look at. He has flatbed straight sewers of various flavours, one flatbed zigzag that will also sew straight, post bed machines and cylinder arm machines - all but one of which is set up as a binder.

All of the machines have been mothballed for 15 years or more but they have tables and clutch motors and will get assembled and verified as at least working if not finely tuned before I buy them. Most of them have varying amounts of fine surface rust on the exterior but turn over smoothly. He's asking around NZ$350 for each machine (head + motor & table). I don't know if that's reasonable or not. Here's a picture of the top of the post of the 236W111 that is fairly indicative of the state of the machines:

10766.jpg

The post beds are two old black Pfaffs I stupidly didn't note the model numbers of, and two Singer 236W machines, one W111 with a horizontal lining trimmer and one (I think) W100 without any fancy bits. From the archives these seem like good machines so I'm leaning towards the 236W100 but I might see if he'll throw in the W111 head as well for a little extra.

Again, based on the archives of this board Singer 31-* machines seem like popular flat beds. He has a couple of 31K-48 machines with roller feed and roller feet. I don't know if these will accept one of Dick Anderson's gimping attachments.

This is the 31-48

10767.jpg

The other roller-foot flat beds are random Pfaffs. He also has a Singer 107W1 zigzag machine that also sews straight. It has a standard presser foot and oscillating feed.

He has two Cylinder arm machines, one Pfaff 335-H2-17/01 (set up as a binder) and one Singer 17-30 with a roller foot. Are cylinder arm machines also useful things to have? It isn't a universal feed patcher, just a regular cylinder arm machine.

[1] He has a "Standard Engineering Co. Ltd" outsole stitcher model 355CEMO but I have neither the 3 phase power, hydraulic pump, nor the space for it and I don't think it'll ever go again having seen it.

[tjburr]

Alasdair/Al,

I also own an SD-28 Junker & Ruh. Though I have not used it yet to sew shoes, it worked wonderful on a set of motorcycle bags.

When I purchased my SD-28 last year I was concerned I only had one needle so I purchased a few needles when this post was put on the Colloquy original post.

The gentleman mentioned in the post was very helpful and acted as a facilitator. He did mention that there were only limited supplies except for one size (I believe size 8 which seems fairly big when being used - maybe Al would be able to tell you how useful this size is). He purchased these from Groz-Beckert which may be the place Al was referring to.

I also have a manual. The manual is for a Pedersen model 308, but I believe this is the same machine developed as a reproduction. I have seen no differences between the manual and the SD-28 I own. If you and Al would prefer to avoid the airmail, I can scan this into my computer and email as a PDF document. The quality would not be as good as a photocopy, based on past experience, but will be quite readable. Just let me know if you want me to.

If you happen to find some of the other parts Al mentions, I would be interested as well after you and Al make your selection.

Terry

[das]

Alasdair,

I'll look for your PM on the Junker manual.

Old factory machine head "as-is" over here were right round $200 USD ea. last time I asked around, but a good solid motor and stand are worth the extra I guess--not out of line.

I love my 236W100. The head has several internal rubber belt drives. When restoring be sure to paint them liberally with automotive liquid rubber belt dressing. This not only makes the head silent running, but also more speed sensitive--it will run nicer at slow speeds, otherwise it seems to know only two: "stop" and "full speed". Made in the '50s, 236W parts are less hard to find.

I have a 17-class cyl arm too, and love it as well. Mine has dual flip-down presser wheels, so you can sew to either the right or left of the needle--very handy. It's a great machine for fine stitching delicate uppers, where a 236W100 will power through almost any weight (I've sewn Highland sporrans on mine). "Obsolete" by Singer in 1935, 17-class parts a few and far between.

Both machines can run a Schmetz 128x2, or x4, needle system, and these are still readily available in 14, 16, 19, etc. as of this writing.

Thanks for the advice on the McKay too. I'll follow-up with Blase Knable and wait to see if Vinny posts.

Terry, not sure which two needle sizes I have, #5 and #6 ring a bell though. No, the Junkers spare parts were from a small outfit in Holland that dealt in shoe machines or old sewing machines. Olaf Goubitz turned me onto them. I know where another SD- is living nearby un-used. If I can shake it loose it might be a good parts machine and the guy might have needles.

[artzend]

Hi guys

I have been contacted by a lady in north Melbourne, Australia, who has some lasts and machinery heels etc to give away by this weekend or they are going to the dump. Anyone interested can email me and I will put them in touch.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com