The Crispin Colloquy

Brendan,

We posted at the same time- Precisely the method I'm used to. I did a photo essay a while back- look near the end of archive 326-350 and the beginning of the one after.

Be careful with the welt press though- that edge is sharp and can cut into the upper leather- I'm thinking of dismantling mine and rounding the edge.

Erick

(Message edited by erickgeer on December 22, 2008)

Paul,

Sure, why not? But, the type of stitch-down (there are several) in which the lining gets cemented under the insole, I still imagine it would be best to last both layers under to let them set-up under tension, then pull the outer layer loose and flange it out, but not having made that type I'm not sure. Maybe our European Forumites can weigh-in on this?

Erick,

All I know is the factory method involves wire pulled tight around the toe and heel, and tacks going into the upper at the sides leaving leaky or unsightly tell-tale holes, neither of which appealed to me. Of course the factory-made stitch-downs never seemed tightly or well-lasted either. I think the nature of the beast is that stitch-downs will never be as nicely or tightly lasted as welted shoes

Seasons Greetings all,

As Al said there are few types of the stitch-down,the shoe above i made many years ago and worn, and all and all very happy with it and not that hard to make.

Nasser Vies
HCC-Member

Nasser,

Thank you for feeding the inspiration mill. I'm familiar with this style consrtuction from repairs in the past. I think there was a line of slip-ons called After Hours, that were popular. It seems it might well be fairly easy.

Brothers,

Thank you for affirming my thought. I've taken many apart made like this, White's Boots are so made.

I've got a pair ready to last, and it's killing me not to be able to do so, because there are more important things to do at any given moment.
But I'll post what I do, when I do what I do.

Paul

Here's a little photo essay of the method Nassar shows.

Part 2

Rick,

I like your method too, mine is slightly different,i last over an extended insole,i pull back upper leather, last lining,put the toe piece,last upper leather(using nails/tacks), rub bone/stick around feather edge of upper,using the last inside as a guide to mark the upper for easier sewing/stitching, i sew lining and upper leather and whatever is in between to insole direct without cementing the lining first like what you did above, i trim and skive to blend the lining and heel stiffener and than fold the upper leather over the insole.


Nasser

Hi all,

I wonder if someone will help me get my head around this traditional welt process. Does one insert counter, toe puff and side liners and then last the shoe. If so how do you remove wrinkles from the toe area effectively. And what should I use for a toe stiffener?

The welt I usually employ, Norwegian welt maybe, the shoe is lasted like in cement construction, the upper lifted and toe stiffener applied to the lining and then the upper leather is lasted again over the toe.

Thanks

Jon,

I last shoes with stiffener in,last the seat,tack it, sew it or Peg it and than take the top leather nails and cement lining to insole if the shoe is cement work,pull the top leather up and put your toe cap and side lining,leather is what i use for toe caps,of course you can last with with everything in if you are Tony and that's only for the rand welt sewing.

Jon, if you are welting, last with stiffener on,secure the seat and than free top leather and tack,nail your lining,put toe cap and side lining and than pull your top leather and tack it for welt sewing.

Jon, Nasser,

I pretty much do it the same way nasser does--I last with heel stiffener and side linings in place. Then I peel back the toe and add the toe stiffener. I last with the heel stiffener wet (but not sopping) the lining and upper slightly moist (I just spritz in strategic places) and when I mount the toe puff, it is wet.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Well that seems intuitive to me, so I'll give it a go. Not knowing the proper way with a traditional welt I've been watching Marcell's videos on Youtube and it looks to me like he puts it all together including toe puff and then lasts the shoe, of course to watch him do it it looks easy.

Rick, I'm afraid I'm a little behind the times, but I have a few questions about your December photo essay.

Most important, I believe I've been using identical shanks to the one in your photo. If so, one of us is using them the wrong way, and it is probably me !

I have been pointing the part of the shank that has the slight bend in the profile (or jog, as opposed to the general arc of the shank) toward the treadline, and having a hard time getting it flush against the insole. It looks like you are putting that end toward the heel. I would imagine it would be hard to get it flush there as well. Perhaps there is a purpose to that bend in the shank that I am not aware of. So I have two questions: should the bend be towards the heel or the tread area? And what, if any, is the purpose of the bend, as I spend a lot of time (usually fruitless) trying to hammer it out. Anyone feel free to jump in here!

Unrelated to the shank, but regarding the method of construction in the photos...basically, you end up with a leather insole, a leather mid-sole and then the outsole, correct? Does this make the shoe kind of stiff and inflexible at the joint?

It looks like you are not filling the area between the lasting margins of the lining before applying the mid-sole. Is this not necessary because of the curve of the bottom of the lasts (of course mine are flat from side to side, sigh...)?

I like the idea of having the upper sewn to something without using a welt. Is there a reason for not doing it all the way around the heel area of the shoe as well, or is it just a preference because of style and appearance? Thanks!

Jenny

Jenny

I think that that shank is back to front, normally the convex shape on the end of the shank faces forward.

You will still need to hammer the shank to get it to fit your lasts though. I always assumed that the little kick at the end is to follow the curve of the bottom of the last just before the joint. If it was left flat it would stick outwards when the bottom of the last curves upwards again.

Tim

Jenny

I agree with Tim and you. That shank looks like its backwards. When I need to change the shape a little, I work it on an anvil or something like it.

Don

Jenny,

Depending on the shank sometimes it's really easy to shape it up, using a hammer and my iron repair last. Other times I add a little heat with a small blow torch and then do the same to shape it.

Jon

Jenny,

The shank is backwards in those photos. Not sure why I did that bur these shoes did have a very flat bottom, so I guess I hammered the kink out.

I use a fairly flexible piece of leather for the midsole. I suppose, that in general, thicker sole arrangements means a stiffer break but it seems any thickness (of leather) will eventually give under continuous bending.

These shoes were not for me but I have made this style for myself and have not noticed them being particularly stiff.

Correct, no filler is needed because additional bulk is distributed between layers.

This style is commonly stitched all around the heel. It's just a style choice.

Thanks, all. I'm going to try out some heat activated shank material I just got from Georgene.

My lasts have a 3/8" heel height. Even so, I do want to use a shank. But because of the low heel height, I have had trouble with the front end of the shank with the little "kick" in the end not clearing the floor unless I put it pretty far back from the tread area.

Jenny

Let me show a small tutorial (part I.) about toe puff lasting and shaping. The idea is: transfer the last form exactly to the final shoe. If you don't do these steps - no problem with the rounded toes, but you can loose all the nice edges on the last, with the thick layers - this method can save them.

I didn't use this method on my videos, but as I use some really sharp-looking last, I use it more and more.

1. step - lasting the shoes, without the toe puff. You have to make a perfect edge at the heel, and do take extra care for the toe. (Sounds good, no? )


2. you start to last the toe puff. Maybe it sound crazy, but it is just easy. If you have some experience, you don't even need to use nails on the top - at least I don't do that.


3. Make the wrinkles, and put nails at the top of the wrinkles. Do not worry about them: they will disappear easily if you made a nice work with the skiving.


4. And now the tricky part: you have to form the toe puff to the shape of the last. If you have a similar last front of you, that means a great help.


rasp, then glass.


5. and ready.



to be continued..

Marcel,

I am looking forward to the rest of this tutorial...what a lovely shoe, BTW, I really like the colour...but so far this is almost identical to the way I do it (what a relief!), except I put the toe puff over the side lining figuring that I can blend the hard leather of the puff into the side lining easier than vice versa.

Are you gluing the puff to the lining and are you going to glue the vamp to the puff? What glue will you use?

Thank you for posting this tutorial it is really helpful.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Marcell,

I second DW's comments, thank you for this.

It seems like in step three you can see the thickness of the leather, is it about 2-3 mm? Is it the same thickness until the skive where it blends into the shoe?

Very nice lasts.

Jon

Then here is the next part. (evn if the previous didn't generate a so big interest. Never mind, the silent audience will find it one day..

So the next step is to work out the feather edge (?).


You cut the bigger wrinkles, then rasp them down, to make sure that you have a sharp edge. That will help a lot, to make a nice welting.

On the last picture you can see what I mean, with the nice edge. Before we achieve that we put the HIRSCHKLEBER (so this is the glue I use) on.


Make sure you leave 5 mm on the top edge without any glue!


Then fold the upper back, and last it the usual way. (No that is not glue - I have an opinion about that method, but I think I would get more warnings for it. )

Work, work, work.. then you have the perfect edge! (not so much work isn't it? It absolutely worth the efforts.)

The main purpose to make these much work is to make a sharp look. What we want to avoid: th e"undercut" design, when the feather edge is 90 degrees to the welt at the toe.

I mean this:


(it is a welted shoe)