Squeaky pipes problem. (That's right, not LEAKY pipes ) I am lasting shoes with a squarish toe-box, and the uppers are made out of tumbled kidskin (yep, same shoes I've been working on for months, now). On one shoe I've already cemented the lasting margin to the insole. The kidskin has a shiny coating on it. The pipes are quite pronounced (DW, I just watched your toe wiping video, thanks and keep 'em coming!). I haven't skived the lasting margin and pipes yet. I notice that when I press on the pipes around the toe area, they squeak.
I am wondering if this is because of the shiny surface of the leather rubbing against itself where the pipes touch each other, and if there is any way to avoid this noise. I am assuming that skiving the pipes at this point won't make much difference in the noise problem because it will only take the surface off of the TOP of the pipes, not in between them where they rub on each other. I am also expecting that the shoes are going to squeak when worn.
I suppose the up-side to the squeaking is that everyone will notice my new handmade shoes . Nevertheless, I'd rather avoid it! Any solution to this, or ways to prevent the squeaking earlier in the lasting process?
Unrelated to the squeaking problem...before I cement on the sole, what is the best way to prepare the lasting margin of the upper to get a good bond with the sole leather? Should the shiny coating/top layer of the kidskin be skived OFF, or should I just rough it up with sandpaper? It is quite different than working with the Butterball I used on my fitter shoes.
If you are making a cement sole construction, I'd make sure all pipes are off the upper part of the shoe probably by wiping it pretty much as in the video. Then, when dry and set, cement under the vamp and use a lining plyer to squeeze those pipes into deliberate folds. At that point a french edger or just any knife will cut the pipes completely off and what's left will have no gaps but be cemented firmly to the insole or lining.
That's pretty much the way I do my full pegged sole boots--they could, I suppose be seen as a variation of a cement sole construction, anyway.
Then as I put on the outsole, I rough the vamp (the lasting margin) up with a fairly fine grade of sandpaper(80-100 grit).
As for the squeakiness, well, first thing...I'd have to say that it's not a recognized sign of fine quality in shoe leather. It indicates to me that the finish is "rubberized" or so overdone as to camouflage a poor corium or substrate. So much that seems difficult or problematic seems to fade into thin air, so to speak, when you use good grades of leather and good tools.
But beyond that, I don't think (I'm guessing and anything is possible) that if you skive and rough up the leather properly you'll have problems with the shoes squeaking. On the other hand, come to think of it, when you flex your foot the leather may rub against itself in the joint area...so it might squeak, at that...but probably not from underneath.
Thanks, DW. What is a lining plyer? One of my new favorite tools is a mini-needle nose plyer that is about 1/16" wide at the end. I can insert it right up the pipes and twist them. The grip is a little iffy, though, and sometimes they slip off the leather...Can't pull real hard with them.
The lining plyer is sometimes referred to as a duckbill plyer although I think incorrectly. The one shown in the archived post is 18th century...hallmarked and everything.
I am wondering....I was looking at the Global Footware site and thought to ask this.And maybe I asked before but never really got a good understanding.How is a " heel height "derived at and how do one get to that measuerment to determine such for a last , either the one's you have or to order a pair? And what it's over all importance in shoe building?
When a last is turned, it is turned off a "prototype'...a model. That model very likely was carved by hand by a "modelmaker." The last lathe, which is really just a "duplicator," follows the contours of the prototype and that sets the heel height (although I have been told that certain machines and a skilled operator can make adjustments in the heel height..."on the fly," so to speak...that differ from the prototype. But the heel height is set by the modelmaker and the lastmaker before you ever get it.
When measuring the heel height of a last, you have to know where the treadline is. If you do (and it can be "seen" ), you can set the last on an eye level shelf and position it so that it is setting on the treadline. A ruler positioned at the medial breast will give the heel height--measure from the shelf surface ("ground" ) to the featherline at the breast.
If you know the heel height and/or the toe spring--and the lastmaker should be able to tell you--you can use these figures as a cross reference.
Pattern-wise, if the figure you determine for the heel height is off (as much as a quarter inch, it may not significantly affect the construction of the shoe or boot. But the "feel" and fit will be affected. There is only one correct heel height on a last and only one correct treadline. Both must be respected or the results will be out of whack.
Having said all that, I got this information from E.J. McDaniel, who was, before his death, one of the most respected modelmakers/custom lastmakers in the country. I also spoke extensively with Karl Kropf over the course of several years following EJ's death. At that time, Karl was considered one of the best in the world. (Karl had a heart attack..but lived...and I don't know whether he is still alive). Karl reaffirmed everything I have told you. And I am also confident that Bill Tippitt would agree with most of this...broadly, at least, if not in detail.
I certainly agree with DW's explanation but would like to add some comments of my own.
First, I will attempt to post some pictures of a last sitting in a last model maker's "trap" which is a jig that measures heel height, toe spring, and heel wedge angle and shows the tread point of the last and therefore of the boot or shoe if the proper heel and shank are used. It's been awhile since I posted pictures so I apologize if the first attempts fail.
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In addition to being a "duplicator" (not to be confused with California's Governor or a nasty creature on some Sci-Fi Channel TV shows), the last lathe is a proportional grading machine. As such, it can take the master model or data file if it is a CNC machine and grade various sizes from there. When this grading occurs the heel height and toe spring increase or decrease as sizes are graded up and down. As DW said, there were some machines which claimed to able to alter the heel height as the last as it was actually being turned but these provided a rough version which had to be cleaned up by a model maker so they were little more than "model lathes" and no one would dare send the finished product out as a production last to the customer.
Below is a graphic from my CAD system showing the increase in a style graded from a size 8D up to a 12D.
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You can see from the measurements, which are in millimeters, that some significant changes occur. Most makers I deal with do indeed fudge up or down 1/4" as DW says is possible without affecting construction but like he also said, there is a specific heel height and tread point. If you have a 12/8 heel and you use it on a size 8 last that is made for that 12/8 heel but then have a size 12 graded from the 8 and attempt to use the same heel you will either need to do some creative adjustments on the bottom of the last or be prepared to live with more toe spring and an altered tread point.
If you request a specific heel height on a specific size from your last supplier, they can provide this, albeit for an additional fee.
I was recently corrected on where to measure heel height, as you're wondering. And I know why you ask, as we share a shoe repair background.
It seems there are two standards:
First it seems the factories measure from the back of the heel. This may be because of that temptation to use a 1 1/2" heel height last for a 2" heel height.
As a custom maker tho, I've been told, we need to measure to the top of the heel base, at the breast, or front of the heel. That's because the sole thickness is the same for the forefoot and the heel, so they cancel themselves out.
The result of balance here, using the heigth of heel appropriate to the last, is support for our weight at the center of gravity.
That's when the hole in a sole is right over the tread line.
We've also seen wear on a sole way too far forward, even a big toe hole! This can be due to a heel too high. Or a hole over the end of a shank, which can be from a heel too low.
Paul reminded me that I didn't address the heel height measurement location question. Most last makers I know (at least the ones in the US) measure heel height on lasts at the breast of the heel as Paul described. Different companies or even different model rooms within a company might alter this slightly but the main height referenced is at the breast. When I was at JV (before they merged with Sterling and Vulcan), the model rooms in Missouri only mentioned one heel height, the breast (12/8, 9/8, etc.). We would measure the heel wedge angle in degrees to determine the height at the back (as shown in the previously posted pictures). However, the JV model rooms in Massachusetts would refer to both the front and back heel heights with no reference to wedge angle. For example: 12/8 x 13/8, 18/8 x 20/8, etc.
On men's lasts the point measured is generally accepted to be 2.5" in front of the end of the heel on a size 8 and on a women's size 6 it's 1 13/16" from the end. The reference point grades 1/16" per whole size.
You all have certainly given me some food for thought now to carry some of this to bed and think it over.I appreciate everything I really have some thinking going into 2007.......... again thanks.I will read these post a couple times to make sure it sink in.
I'm starting on fitting a last for a customer and I'm undecided about which direction to take. I'm hoping if I explain the problem a discussion will ensue and I'll learn something.
I have a customer whose measurements are almost perfectly a 9 1/2 D. Ball, waist, instep, heel measurement, heel width...everything is right on. BUT, when I lay a 9 1/2 D last on his pedograph the pedograph imprint is quite a bit wider on both the medial and lateral side. To match his width I'd probably have to go down to an A width and build it up only on the sides so I don't add any heighth. Then of course I'll have to worry about redoing the instep and the heel measurement and width.
Has anyone ever had this problem? What did you do?
BUT, when I lay a 9 1/2 D last on his pedograph the
pedograph imprint is quite a bit wider on both the medial and
lateral side. To match his width I'd probably have to go down to an
A width
But if I'm awake enough, I'm reading that the pedograph--the imprint--is wider than a 9½D last. So why would you go to a 9½A last? If the "D" is narrower than the pedograph, the "A" will be narrower yet, wouldn't it?
I think you must have typed this wrong...I find myself doing that all the time now that I've past 60 and I have to re-read everything twice before I post it to make I wrote it correctly. But just in case, I think I'll wait for a clarification from you before I comment further. Maybe the same "confusion" that makes me mis-state in the first place is causing me to misunderstand in this case.
DW,
The reason I was thinking I'd have to go down in width is this: A 9 1/2 D gives me the right measurement, but last isn't as wide as the pedograph. If I add to the sides to make it wider I'll also be adding girth--the measurement will get bigger. But if I started out with an A or B, the measurements would be too small and it would be too narrow. If I put all of the build-ups on the sides of the last I could add both girth and width.
Does that make sense or am I just looking at this from the wrong angle?
OK, I understand now...no, you're not looking at it wrong, I'm just making it more complicated than it was.
Here's what I would do...either make the boots on the 9½D last and figure that the foot will roll the vamp out over the insole...
Or build the 9½D last up so that the bottom matches the imprint--featherline to featherline--and then cut the last over the joint and waist to come back to measure. That way you preserve all girths to the rear of the waist while matching the measurements at the joint and waist, AND you match the actual weight bearing print of the foot..which means that you will cut an insole to the actual weight bearing width that the foot wants.
I know, I know...it's cutting the last and I am an advocate of never cutting the last unless you have to. But in this case it is not only the easiest approach, it is, in my opinion, the most logical and the most certain.
I suppose you could start with the "A" but then as you say, you'd have to deal with the short heel and instep, etc.... pretty iffy and much, much more exacting trying to come back to both width and girth.
DW,
Thanks! That's an approach I hadn't thought of but it makes a lot of sense. I try to avoid cutting on lasts too, but to be honest I try equally hard to avoid choosing a last that's completely wrong in the heel measurement/width area! This guy has two pairs of boots on order, so I guess that would make grinding on a last slightly less painful.
I've been doing some research into lastmaking, and I have a few questions which I would love to get some feedback or opinions on.
In thinking about the design of the insole pattern for a last, one key decision is the location of the 'center line' of the forefoot of the last, which in turn is a function of two points that are connected -- the center point of the heel and center point of the toe. So, my first question is what do people think is the best location for the center of the toe? For example, Koleff centers the toe of the last in front of the 2nd toe. I believe others may center it in front of the space between the 2nd and 3rd toes, while Carl Lichte prefers to center it between the big toe and the 2nd toe. So, what do people here prefer, and does this vary based on the customer's toe shape or other factors?
Likewise, there is an issue as to where to locate the beginning of the forefoot center line -- Koleff does this at the back of the heel tracing. Carl likes to start it at a point more forward, at the implied/hypothetical center of the heel based on the rear half of the heel imprint. Any opinions or experience out there?
And finally, how much do people try to get the last's heel curve to correspond to the tracing and pedograph? As an example, Koleff uses a 5 mm heel curve, but in my case my pedograph print is 9mm in front of my heel tracing -- so, if you were fitting me, would you endeavor to actually have the last have a 9 mm heel curve, or what?
Here's my take...none of those arbitrary points or lines is necessarily the center of the foot nor does the centerline of the foot mean much...or contribute much...to the fitting of a shoe/boot.
Of greater importance, in my view, is the LOMA (line of muscular action) and Carl's method comes closest to that. On my lasts, and with a normal foot, the center of the toe of the last will fall directly over the LOMA when the last is positioned correctly over the footprint.
But if you're dead set to find the center of the foot, a better, more scientific, and more logical/rational, way is to run a line along the side of the tracing (or, better, the footprint) touching at medial ball and side of heel and another on the lateral side touching once again at lateral ball joint an side of heel. Extend these lines behind the heel until they intersect. Use a protractor to measure the degree of angle. Split it in two. Draft another line that begins at the intersection of the two outside lines and runs through the split angle point. Extend beyond the toe. This will be the center line.
A good read on this subject is Golding or better Rossi.
I would like to share my recent experience making boot lasts. I purchased the last making book from Larry Waller and got right to work cutting and planeing the peices of wood. I glued them togather and rough cut them on the ban saw. I then put a 36 grit belt on my knife grinding machine and went to work. In the mean time, I purchased a really nice run of boot lasts from larry and another bunch off the inter-net. One of my first patrons had a very wide and big frontal foot. After many houres in the shop I went to my last boxes and found a real nice pair of lasts that I was able to build up and with the help of a trial boot, was able to fit him. As I compare the time in my shop grinding to the time fitting a last, I had a flash of inspiration. I can not possibly live long enough to build lasts for every ones special requirements.
The handmade last project ended up in the wood burning stove. I discussed this entire business with a boot builder friend who lives 15 miles up the road, and we both decided that charging a one time lasting fee is the best policy. One call to Bill T and a final tweek and we are ready to do the deal. This way I keep the last and patterns and next time he or she wants a pair of boots, a quick re-fit and tweeking will hopefully get us ready to cut leather.
Well I hope I didn't crumble your cooky. I realize that sometimes a bootmaker just has to do what a bootmaker has to do. I am glad I had the experience and I hope it works out for you. In the mean time I will return to the WAR my sewing machines have declared on me. I am still trying to train them to sew in a straight line and to keep running.
If I have poked my nose where it don't belong, please forgive me. I really appreciate the information shared.
This is what I've been doing for the last few years. I tell the customer they will have their own last, and several have put a deposit down right away to get in the queue for next year.
Thanks for your replies. DW, I understand that the 'centerline' is of limited import, but I think it has relevance in the design of the forefoot/toe of the last, which certainly has some importance. What would the Rossi citation be? I googled him and found some articles and his book about 'The Sex Life of the Foot and the Shoe', but I assume that is not the one to which you refer. I did learn that his library was donated to an organization in Brockton, Mass, which I hope to be able to go and investigate this summer when I'm in Rhode Island. By the way, the term "Line of Muscular Action" is the same one Carl used, so I assume you got the term from the same source -- which would be ______?
As to the suggestion to modify a set of existing lasts, I have severals comments and one question. I am interested in making shoes, not boots, a fact that I think complicates matters, since (it seems to me) that the variety of possible toe shapes, heel heights, shoe types (lace up vs slip on), etc. increases the number of lasts that I would need, unless I became incredibly good at modifying them. Of course, there is the option of using Bill Tippit, but I'm not sure his library of production-oriented shoe lasts is quite what I'm looking for vis-a-vis the bespoke shoe shapes I might desire. Further, unlike in the realm of bootmaking where there seems to be ample knowledge of what old lasts are 'good fitters,' I don't know if the same knowledge base exists where shoes are concerned, given the paucity of custom shoemakers in this country. Of course, I'd be happy to be contradicted on either of these assumptions/beliefs!
Now, as for my question: my impression is that most bootmakers have one or a few models of lasts that they prefer. I presume these lasts each have a characteristic insole shape. So, given the variation in customers' foot shapes (e.g. verying degrees of inflare vs. straight vs. outflare), how do you handle this fact if you want the center of the last's toe to line up with the LOMA? Do you search for a last that has the right shape (and, if so, how many different last/insole shapes do you have), do you live with some imprecision in this area, or do you try to modify the last to the extent of changing where its toe is centered? Or, is there in fact relatively little variation in your customers' forefoot shapes?
In any event and back to my original question, it seems to me that the ability to draw an insole shape, based on the principles of lastmaking, can only be a useful skill whether applied to actual lastmaking or the selection of an appropriate last for a given foot.
Finally, three other questions. First, does anyone have any good references for lastmaking, beyond the Golding that DW has scanned and the Koleff book?
And second, referring back to foot shape. In one of the Rossi articles I found, as well as (IIRC) a book on shoe fitting (also by Rossi?), there is an assertion that most shoes don't fit because the last is too inflared while most feet are relatively straight! My impression is that this is exactly backwards. Anyone have any comments or thoughts.
And finally (I promise!), is the Munson book on feet worth spending $40 for? What information does the book actually contain, e.g. does it give any data on the distribution of different foot shapes, size of heel vs. joint, etc?
Lance,
Thanks, you have taken many words from my thoughts, so now I know that I am not the only one comming up with some of the basic questions about shoe lasts. After reading alot of the archives on lasts, I have decided to build my own last copier. The reason was exactly as you put it in that no two shoes that I plan on creating will use the same last. I plan on starting with a life cast and coping it on my machine. I then plan on adding material to this wood until I get a usable shape. I can then copy it again in wood and then copy a left from the right with the machine. It seems to me the dificulty is not the creation of the first shape but rather the creation of the mirror image carving. I will have to make a seperate life cast for each heel hight planned. I am with in a couple of days of posting photos of my machine. I will then start the experimentation. This is just a "hobbie" so I can afford to experiment and violate the rules. If something works, maybe someone will get some benifit if not just from the hummor of me screwing with things.
Lyle
I don't know the title of the Rossi article. I have a copy somewhere...if I can dig it out I'll let you know.
As for the LOMA, it must have been Golding...in the end it always seems to come back to Golding.
The Munson book...Al Saguto swears by Munson lasts and he's as knowlegable about the foot/last connection as anyone I know. Dragging him out of hibernation to comment may be difficult, however.
As for Rossi's comment...well the healthy, natural foot is generally straight along the medial side at birth and insofar as our feet remain healthy during our lives, one would expect them to remain straight. So Rossi's comment makes sense to me. And I use lasts to make footwear that Rossi would probably describe as too inflared. Certainly Al Saguto and the proponents of Munson lasts would.
An interesting note...that may or may not affect your thinking regardless of your interest in shoes or boots...I had a pretty good last maker tell me at a time fairly early in my career that a good bootmaker ought to be able to convert any size last into any other size last. While a bit of an exaggeration, I would have to agree on the basic principle. And that goes for any shape as well. I run across feet that are inflare and outflare and pes cavus and so forth. I hate converting the lasts I use to accommodate these feet but not because it cannot be done but rather because the results are seldom to my standards of esthetics (and I am quite particular...and a fair hand...in that regard).
Knowledge of the last and how to shape or convert it starts with the foot and not the other way around. Which tends to validate the premise offered above, and makes me inclined to agree that modifying existing lasts is probably the best way to reach the primary objective...creating a last for a customer...while learning about how the last and the foot are related.
Having said that, I might also observe that if you want to be a lastmaker or a modelmaker you are on the right track but if you want to be a shoemaker or a bootmaker, it might be wise to come to terms with the idea that lastmaking is every bit as complicated, and as involved, and time consuming as boot or shoemaking--and vice versa. It is the very rare person indeed that will live long enough to master either one of these disciplines much less both.
) I am lasting shoes with a squarish toe-box, and the uppers are made out of tumbled kidskin (yep, same shoes I've been working on for months, now). On one shoe I've already cemented the lasting margin to the insole. The kidskin has a shiny coating on it. The pipes are quite pronounced (DW, I just watched your toe wiping video, thanks and keep 'em coming!). I haven't skived the lasting margin and pipes yet. I notice that when I press on the pipes around the toe area, they squeak. 
