The Crispin Colloquy

Robert, all...

Dear All,
just a quick note to follow up on the inquiry re: the Patrick Henry. It is very nicely furnished and clean and tidy. The lobby is a bit old fashioned but it is one of the original hotel properties here in town (hence the nice location). I went there and looked at the rooms before booking the hotel, so hopefully it will be a very nice experience. We hope everyone can attend the AGM in October!
If you have any questions or need further information, feel free to contact me at mcsagu@wm.edu
Thanks!
Miriam Saguto

Miriam,

Thank you for checking out the place. Knowing you have seen it makes me much more comfortable booking. Looking forward to meeting you all in October.

Rob.

Well, it was a hazardous evening skiving my heel and toe stiffener veg tan last night. Ended up with five bandaids on my left hand. Mostly kept stabbing myself with the point of my Tina knife. I also wore the skin off the top knuckle of the index finger of my right hand, from rubbing against the flesh side of the leather as I was skiving.

Any advice on, or photos of, the proper way to hold a Tina knife when pull skiving would be appreciated! Is it possible to stabilize the knife without rubbing a knuckle, or knuckles, along the surface of the leather?

Was sharpening my knife on the Razor Sharp system. It would be great for about 2 inches of skiving and then quickly become dull. Not sure if it is a poor quality knife (it's a "Dutch" Tina, not a Goetz) or if I am doing something drastically wrong in the sharpening process. It also seemed like the knife would cut smoothly for a very short distance and then catch in the leather.

In spite of my battle wounds I will persist! The shoes may be covered in blood, sweat and tears (literally), but I will not be deterred! Ouch!

Jenny

Jenny,

I am not the experienced bootmaker and leather worker that you are looking for but if you would allow me to point you to a reference work that I found very useful in learning tools and how to use them and sharpen them. Here is a link to Al Stohlman's Leathercraft Tools Book:

http://www.craftcave.com/leather/leathercrafttoolbook.htm

You can find it at most any leathercraft store and it is not very expensive. I tend to like reference works and most of Stohlman's are very good. I also have DW's book which I have found invaluable in this learning process.

One other thing about the knife dulling quickly. I have a horsehide strap that I keep handy. I do not use any paste or rouge on it. I simply give the knife a few strops while I am working to bring back the polish on the edge.

I hope I am not promoting here and I hope you may find some of this helpful.

Thanks,

Mark

DW, and Mark...

Mark, thanks. I already have that book (although I can't find it at the moment) and some sharpening stones. I didn't do too well with those, so I got the Razor Sharp system. Will try stropping more. Is horsehide better for that than say, veg tan insole leather? Do you only strop on the grain side?

DW, I found the picture you posted previously of how you hold the knife for pull skiving. I'll try that grip next time, but do you end up dragging your middle finger knuckle along the leather?

Needed some new ways to injure myself, so I just went to the hardware store and bought some glass to break, and later I'm going to run with scissors

Jenny

Shank alignment...If the shape of the insole/last bottom is slightly narrower by the arch area than at the widest part of the heel, how do you determine the exact alignment of the shank?

For instance, should you start it centered at the heel and then aim it along a line that would continue on to go between the second and third toes? Or is the exact angle not that critical, as long as it doesn't veer off to one side? Thanks!

Jenny

Jenny,

I center the shank to the ball and keep it slightly behind the ball, when you put your last a the correct heel height the shank should barely touch the ground. Typically I would center it on the heel as well but if it gets to close to the medial side (arch side) you could move it a little more to the outside of the heel. I would not change it in the ball area.

Hope this helps, keep up the good work.
Rob

On a standard last, if the insole is trimmed properly--the bottom paper can be a guide--you won't have much choice about where the shank support is located side to side.

As far as where it should be located front to back, my take is that the heel end should be well under the heed block...maybe an inch...and the toe end should be well behind the treadline.

The treadline is just the center of an area roughly one inch on either side of it that flexes and rolls as the shoe or boot is walked. So if the toe end of the shank encroaches to within one inch of the tread line it will be within that area.And it will interfere with the action of the shoe, at the very least and be constantly working against the rest of the insole at the worst. Moreover, it does not need to go any further forward than that. The idea is to support the foot from the heel height to the ground level. In most cases, and for all intents and purposes, the sole will touch the ground well behind the actual treadline...especially when the shoe has some weight on it.

And if the sole doesn't add some rigidity and stiffness to the bottom of the shoe...aid and abet the shank support, if you will, then the shank is gonna rip right out of there anyway.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Thanks, all. The shank goes pretty far back under the heel because I could only find one size shank (doesn't quite stick out the back, though ). I know someone here said you can break a piece off a shank to shorten it, although that seems like an impossible task, unless I could cut it with a jigsaw. (??) Still would like to find a place to mail order different length shanks, that will sell to someone without a business license. If anyone knows of a place, please let me know.

It sounds like there is a difference of opinion on how far forward the shank should go. If I have a chance in the next day or two I'll post a drawing of my interpretation of your descriptions!

I finished my revised fitter shoe, and my adjustments to the last made it fit better in some ways and worse in others, so I've made some more adjustments to the lasts and am working on a new pattern. Will make fitter shoes for both feet this time, and hope to only have to revise the lasts one more time, because I REALLY need a pair of shoes I can wear! My current one pair of "comfortable" shoes has a crack along the treadline on one foot, and every time it rains, which has been a lot lately, the inside of that shoe, and my sock gets sopping wet! Let's not even talk about the smell...

Jenny

Jenny,

I don't know that there is a disagreement...maybe more just a matter of how you look at it.

The treadline is supposed to be identical with the ball joint--where the metatarsal heads meet the phalanges...right down to the varying angles from medial ball to lateral ball that occur on individual feet. But that juncture...that "line"...really just half the story with regard to the joint. The joint is a hinge and the hinge itself is quite a bit wider than the joint. The "knuckle" on either side of the joint moves and is intended to move, as part of the hinge which, in turn, moves and rolls with the movement of the foot. Call it the tread "area." It extends roughly an inch on either side of the treadline. If you examine the foot you will see a heavy pad on the plantar surface of the foot that cushions this hinge/tread area. Nature designed it to be roughly one inch (coincidence?!! I think not) wider than the treadline, for a reason. If there were no movement on either side of the treadline, there would be no pad. If the forward end of the shank support encroaches on the tread area--that hinging area--the shank...which doesn't move...will have a tendency to bust out through the sole.

And you could use your grinder to cut half an inch or so off a shank without seriously altering the curvature or the fit.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW, the point at which the sole rises off the floor (on the shoe before it is worn)...should that be AT the treadline, or an inch back, at the beginning of the "hinge" area?

Jenny

Jenny,

This depends on the heel height as much as anything, I would think. But on an inch and five-eighths heel the sole is distinct from the floor at roughly one inch back from the treadline.

The really important point is that the shoe or boot should sit on the treadline and nowhere else. the curvature of the sole should be tangent to the floor at the treadline. And you can't really...not really...make a boot or shoe heel higher than the last it is set for. Not even a quarter inch. Yes, some folks do it, but it is brinkmanship and not strictly kosher no matter how you cut it. And, what's more it's disrespectful of the last and the lastmaker's science.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Jenny,

My experience is in shoerepair. So, I don't want to pretend that I know any more than what I've learned from observation and listening to my customers.

From experience I've learned that a shank any closer than an inch or so from the treadline, will breakout of the sole as DW is describing. I've seen it for years.

From my customers I've learned another matter, to add to this. If I'm not mistaken, it's dancing shoes you're all about in this shoe making context.

Well, the thing that comes to mind is my Rodeo Bronc/Bull riding customer. He wants to point his toes, to hold his stirrup. Of course I know you're not ridin' any broncs, but you still want to point your toes. So you don't want a shank that comes so far forward it digs into your foot when you point it.

I'm sorry to add to any confusion, but shoes are relative to what you're doing in them. Heck, if the heel isn't too high, you could do without a shank entirely!

PK

Paul,
A lot of bronc riders prefer to have the shank entirely removed from their boots. I had the shoe repair guy look at me with the hairy eyeball some 25 years ago, and said "You want what?!" It does help you to hold your stirrups better. I think Barstow probably still sells bronc riding boots with no shanks. They are a little different to walk in though - high heeled slippers. Just drop me off by the gate, thanks.
I am now older and wiser(?) looking at two bronc trees, and only one is a firm order. My wife is a little quakey about the spare tree sitting there like a siren song.

Bruce Johnson

DW,

It is working great for me. I have gotten all of your posts via email notification.

Thanks,

Mark

Works for me DW.
Cheers.
T.

Mark, Tom,

Thanks for letting me know...I did a debug function last night and found out that everyone that has Open Forum enabled for email was getting sent messages...wait for it...except me (and one or two others)! And then there were two names, not registered members who, were getting sent messages who shouldn't be getting anything from the board.

???!!!

Go figure. I got a request for support into the developer but other than those small problems things are looking good.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Hey DW,
Sorry just saw your test message...

Posted by DWFII on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 05:47 pm:

test again


I received this at 8.24pm yesterday (Sunday)
but when I clicked on the link to the CC, I came through to this thread but your test email isn't here??

More power to y'awl
T.

Tom,,

Well, that's 'cuz I think...I hope...I've got most everything squared away again, and I deleted the test messages.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HC

Lip knife technique question...I just used a lip knife for the first time to trim the outsoles on my shoes. It was tricky to sharpen the knife, but I got it pretty sharp (although think there's no such thing as "sharp enough"!).

In my limited experience, most knives seem to cut more easily if you do a slicing motion as you cut. However, in order for the lip of the lip knife to protect the shoe upper, I gather one should force the knife straight through the leather at an even level.

I found this difficult and did raise the knife occasionally so I could slice downward as I pulled the knife along the edge of the outsole. As a result, in spite of being careful, I did knick the upper in a few places [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img].

Any advice or suggestions? Thanks.

Jenny

Jenny,

Using a lip knife is a skill that even the best sometimes never master.

Several points...first, brace the thumb up against the edge of the sole well ahead of the blade of the knife. Draw the knife towards your thumb with a closing action of the hand...do not try to pull the knife with your arm and shoulder!

Second, if you keep the knife angled back a little the action will be a slicing motion. Trying to force the edge of the blade through the leather without this slicing action is a fool's game and very hard to do.

Third, nestle the blade in the crook (middle joint) of your index finger and the top of the knife should be just barely exposed. Yes, that means that you'll be holding the knife blade almost more than the handle.

Fourth, nowhere does a sharp (I mean scary sharp) knife assume greater importance than when using a lip knife. If the knife is dull you'll cut the shoe and your thumb so often and so severely that you may think it impossible.

But if the knife is sharp, it is one of the most useful tools the maker has.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Thanks, DW. Will try to refine my technique per your directions on the next pair of shoes! I did find myself drawing the knife toward my thumb, and then tried not to as I kind of like my thumb intact. But I guess that's what bandaids are for!

Jenny

DW...I just tried to watch the Hammer-Jacking video again, as I am about to start on my heels. The link doesn't seem to work, although I was able to watch it previously. Is this a result of the change in the Web site, or is there some trick to it? Thanks.

Also, is it possible to put links to all videos on one thread so they can be found easily?

Jenny

If you're looking at t6he video at this address: http://www.thehcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4345&p=17908#p17908
Then I would guess the problem is something in your system. I just watched it..worked fine.

As for placing all videos in one spot, I've had several requests for this but as I think about it, I don't see a benefit beyond the obvious gathering it all together. And that may seem, at first glance like it is all the reason one would need but a video is just another form of photo. If we gathered all the photos together in one spot they would lose all relevance to the text that accompanied them and the discussions that ensued. Either that or everything---discussions, comments photos and videos would end up in one thread and there would be no compartmentalizing at all.

I suggest two things...one for those posting videos (and for the foreseeable future that will alwasys be me, even if I'm posting for someone else) a short description including the extension--wmv--be added to the post. This will allow folks to search for these videos using the keyword "wmv." [Or, I found the above by searching for "hammer jack" using the "and" qualifier in the search]

And the second thing is that if you think you will ever want to view the video again either bookmark it or download it. I might add that everytime you view the video in real time, you are, in fact, downloading it to your machine. Why not download it permanently? As long as you don't distribute it or claim it as your own there should be no copyright issues.

Emmett...

Well, here they are, my first pair of lined, wearable shoes! What a journey. They are a little ragged, at little wounded, but all in all, I'm pretty excited about it!


Jenny