Marcell,
Was it an Hungarian book that had this pattern? If so you are the only source to unlocking the secrets.
I assume the three bottom sections have some relation to the last length?
Are you considering making this boot?
I wonder, just like Georgene if this boot would have been crimped? It is hard to imagine that it could have been shaped in the lasting process but I wouldn't rule it out either.
Out of curiosity, for a size 42 how wide is the widest part of the pattern?
Thanks for sharing this.
Rob
Pattern making
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marcell
Re: Pattern making
So many questions.. I try to answer. Yes it was for peasant in that time, when Hungary didn't know shoes, everyone had boots (boot nation - that was us). The original construction of this boot was turned - very hard and fast work - if not fast enough, you weren't able to turn.
The original name of this boot was crimped peasant boot. Goergene - in some version they made creases on it.
Here is some versions:
Rob, 42 (french stitch) - its lenght. And sure, it has been crimped.
The original name of this boot was crimped peasant boot. Goergene - in some version they made creases on it.
Here is some versions:
Rob, 42 (french stitch) - its lenght. And sure, it has been crimped.
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marcell
Re: Pattern making
The man in boot, woman barefoot.. (which was to normal "footwear" at that time.
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das
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Re: Pattern making
This "history guy" would love to chime in, however I'll have to wait until I'm at my office at the museum tomorrow to download the photo in question. My home computer won't open it 
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large_shoemaker_at_large
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Re: Pattern making
Hi Marcell
Interesting pice of history. Looking at the pattern then the photos, the photo in the middle seems to be closer to the pattern ie no side seam or seperate vamp. The boots all have a higher heel style this would reduce wrinkles in the leg? Was this made with todays leather, or something less processed that would give more?
When you speak of a turned shoe I assume that it is lasted and stitched inside out , turned and the outsole and heel attached? If I am near to the process how did they attach the outsole?
I was asked to repair a boot like a Blundstone from Australia it is about 6 inch tall slip on boot with elastic goring. It had one peice constuction and the sole and insole were attached with brass pegs. I scratched my head on how they made the pattern and assume it was crimped maybe in the back also.
I also resoled a Kosack dance boot that looks like the photo of the man and women. It had a soft foot part the boot shaft was much more stiff. Nice looking boot is there any function to the stiffer shaft of fashion?
Regards
Brendan
Interesting pice of history. Looking at the pattern then the photos, the photo in the middle seems to be closer to the pattern ie no side seam or seperate vamp. The boots all have a higher heel style this would reduce wrinkles in the leg? Was this made with todays leather, or something less processed that would give more?
When you speak of a turned shoe I assume that it is lasted and stitched inside out , turned and the outsole and heel attached? If I am near to the process how did they attach the outsole?
I was asked to repair a boot like a Blundstone from Australia it is about 6 inch tall slip on boot with elastic goring. It had one peice constuction and the sole and insole were attached with brass pegs. I scratched my head on how they made the pattern and assume it was crimped maybe in the back also.
I also resoled a Kosack dance boot that looks like the photo of the man and women. It had a soft foot part the boot shaft was much more stiff. Nice looking boot is there any function to the stiffer shaft of fashion?
Regards
Brendan
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marcell
Re: Pattern making
Brendan.. Here is a picture about turn-boot. There is no attached outsole - They stitched the upper to the outsole directly. In some place this boot was called "stepping on clouds (heaven)". because this contruction was very light.
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angel
Re: Pattern making
This story of the one piece boot is more than interesting for me. I´m considering to try to make a pair. Not turned, surely!
I wonder how did they turn the boot with the outsole in place and stitched? Isn´t it too hard to turn? When you say it is a fast work, is it because the leather had to be soaked? And how did they replace the sole when needed???
Thanks Marcell
I wonder how did they turn the boot with the outsole in place and stitched? Isn´t it too hard to turn? When you say it is a fast work, is it because the leather had to be soaked? And how did they replace the sole when needed???
Thanks Marcell
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large_shoemaker_at_large
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Re: Pattern making
Hi Marcell
Thanks for the explanation. Were they made left and right or straight lasts. Would you have to wet them to turn them? Last question. Was the upper let into the insole so you wouldn't feel the seam?
To all
years ago I saw a pair of boot made in England. They were a man's boot he reffered to them as" Jodpers" i am not sure of the spelling. They had a one piece vamp and shaft and a strap that went around the ankle. The rear part of the boot was only attached to the vamp well into the waist of the boot to facilitate putting on. I always wanted to make a pair but time has fogged the old brain. Can anyone help me on this one? the term Jodpur was it the style or manufacturer? Thinking late 60's early 70's
Regards
Brendan
Thanks for the explanation. Were they made left and right or straight lasts. Would you have to wet them to turn them? Last question. Was the upper let into the insole so you wouldn't feel the seam?
To all
years ago I saw a pair of boot made in England. They were a man's boot he reffered to them as" Jodpers" i am not sure of the spelling. They had a one piece vamp and shaft and a strap that went around the ankle. The rear part of the boot was only attached to the vamp well into the waist of the boot to facilitate putting on. I always wanted to make a pair but time has fogged the old brain. Can anyone help me on this one? the term Jodpur was it the style or manufacturer? Thinking late 60's early 70's
Regards
Brendan
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amuckart
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Re: Pattern making
That's a very interesting pattern to me. There are 15th century boots I've been looking at lately that are built from a very similar pattern. They have no heel and they aren't crimped, the excess material over the instep is taken in as a fold and buckled down at the side of the foot to fasten the boot.
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marcell
Re: Pattern making
Brendan, I have some old patterns, but my English is not enough to understand you terminology. Can you give a simple draw about it?
They didn't made right-left boots, it was one form - change every day to last longer. I don't know what they felt, but most probably - as they didn't wear socks but a thick, soft material wrapped on their feet. (Sorry I don't know the English name its an old Hungarian word: 'kapca').
They didn't made right-left boots, it was one form - change every day to last longer. I don't know what they felt, but most probably - as they didn't wear socks but a thick, soft material wrapped on their feet. (Sorry I don't know the English name its an old Hungarian word: 'kapca').
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relferink
Re: Pattern making
Brendan,
Do you mean Jodhpur boots? That's an interesting boot. I don't know all that much about it and never made one. Here's what a quick Google search turned up: (this is the sales pitch version, take it as such)
"These boots were originally made in India, according to British requirements for privileged colonials, who named them “jodhpurs” in honor of the town of Jodhpur in Rajasthan where they were made. Today, the jodhpur boot is the smart ankle-boot for men. They come from Portugal and are made from high-quality, supersoft, brushed calfskin.
Goodyear-welted.
The front and heel are each made from one piece of leather, giving them the effect of a fine, slip-on shoe under trousers. The cut and excellent fit remain unchanged and perfect. And, just as before, the jodhpurs are edged with stitching, as are the most expensive of shoes.
Quality that will last virtually forever. Adjust the leather strap around the soft leather ankle area to fit your foot and feel comfortable. Upper and lining: genuine calfskin. Sole: genuine leather. Colour: antique brown. A perfect shoe for a sporty look with canvas trousers, chinos or jeans."
source: proidee.co.uk
A couple of different variations on the cut taken from the internet:
I seem to remember some link to Afghanistan for these boots as well but can not find any info on that and I could be mistaken.
When you do a Google search for these a lot of Chelsea boots show up (elastic on the side) No idea if that is an accepted variation on the theme or simply mislabeled, anyone?
Looking at the samples pictures the patterns aren't all that complicated, the main thing being a stay type stitch where the vamp and quarters come together.
Rob
(Message edited by relferink on February 14, 2008)
Do you mean Jodhpur boots? That's an interesting boot. I don't know all that much about it and never made one. Here's what a quick Google search turned up: (this is the sales pitch version, take it as such)
"These boots were originally made in India, according to British requirements for privileged colonials, who named them “jodhpurs” in honor of the town of Jodhpur in Rajasthan where they were made. Today, the jodhpur boot is the smart ankle-boot for men. They come from Portugal and are made from high-quality, supersoft, brushed calfskin.
Goodyear-welted.
The front and heel are each made from one piece of leather, giving them the effect of a fine, slip-on shoe under trousers. The cut and excellent fit remain unchanged and perfect. And, just as before, the jodhpurs are edged with stitching, as are the most expensive of shoes.
Quality that will last virtually forever. Adjust the leather strap around the soft leather ankle area to fit your foot and feel comfortable. Upper and lining: genuine calfskin. Sole: genuine leather. Colour: antique brown. A perfect shoe for a sporty look with canvas trousers, chinos or jeans."
source: proidee.co.uk
A couple of different variations on the cut taken from the internet:
I seem to remember some link to Afghanistan for these boots as well but can not find any info on that and I could be mistaken.
When you do a Google search for these a lot of Chelsea boots show up (elastic on the side) No idea if that is an accepted variation on the theme or simply mislabeled, anyone?
Looking at the samples pictures the patterns aren't all that complicated, the main thing being a stay type stitch where the vamp and quarters come together.
Rob
(Message edited by relferink on February 14, 2008)
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elstoof
Re: Pattern making
There's a few more here on the John Lobb website
http://www.johnlobbltd.co.uk/catalogue/fullsize_images/Website_shoes_boots/Websi te_boots/Jodhpur/jodhpurthumbhumb.htm
Nick
http://www.johnlobbltd.co.uk/catalogue/fullsize_images/Website_shoes_boots/Websi te_boots/Jodhpur/jodhpurthumbhumb.htm
Nick
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elstoof
Re: Pattern making
As I understand it, jodhpurs are the tight trousers worn while horseriding and the boots of the same name also derive from this activity. As the front of the shoe is a whole piece of leather from the toe to the ankle and the only seam faces the rear of the boot, the foot is kept dry when it brushes through wet grass and the like. On many examples of this style the seams angle downwards (if you see what I mean) so no water can rest on the ridge and soak through.
Nick
Nick
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relferink
Re: Pattern making
Nick,
Thanks for pointing those out. Are these made with a back seam or are both quarters one piece? Or maybe the customer gets to choose?
I don't know why I keep thinking about an Afghan connection to these boots. Maybe I'm just confused or maybe when the British tried their hand at ruling Afghanistan the Jodhpur was in it's heyday. If anyone can help me out on that I'd appreciate it.
Rob
Thanks for pointing those out. Are these made with a back seam or are both quarters one piece? Or maybe the customer gets to choose?
I don't know why I keep thinking about an Afghan connection to these boots. Maybe I'm just confused or maybe when the British tried their hand at ruling Afghanistan the Jodhpur was in it's heyday. If anyone can help me out on that I'd appreciate it.
Rob
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das
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Re: Pattern making
Marcell,
I was confused (it happens). I thought you'd posted a picture of the 100 year old one-pirce boot pattern itself on the Forum, not just B&W photos of those people in folk dress.
Maybe you can scan the image in the book, and post it small size here, just so I can see what you're on about. There are some complete and fragmentary boots of a similar nature (I think) from around Praha, CZ, and that region as well, dating from the 1500s.
I was confused (it happens). I thought you'd posted a picture of the 100 year old one-pirce boot pattern itself on the Forum, not just B&W photos of those people in folk dress.
Maybe you can scan the image in the book, and post it small size here, just so I can see what you're on about. There are some complete and fragmentary boots of a similar nature (I think) from around Praha, CZ, and that region as well, dating from the 1500s.
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marcell
Re: Pattern making
D.A. I did that at: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 01:29 pm - check it! If you want I can send it to you in eps format.
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das
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Re: Pattern making
Marcell,
Ah yes, now my computer downloaded your diagram. Thanks. Just had so-so results crimping (blocking) virtually the same one-piece boot for a lady customer. They were a very supple, glovey, chrome leather upper with a light lining. I gave up trying to crimp them by hand on a board--none of mine were wide enough to do the whole piece. I had recourse to an Italian (brand?) hydraulic steam crimping machine, but the angle of its aluminum "board" ("L" shaped thingie) was not a sharp enough right angle, so there are still a few wrinkles at the very break-point.
Back to the drawing board [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]
The antique boots from Praha were side-seamed on one side only, but otherwise all one piece in the upper--not quite as straight forward as the one you showed. As to a "history guy's" input then, I've not seen any quite like you show, but I've spent too little time in Central and Eastern Europe looking, and most of my time in England and Western Europe.
Somebody did ask about the rigid leg linings, etc. (soft at the ankles): as far as I know by about 1820 the French and Western Europeans called the two-piece, whole-cut boots (side-seamed) with the molded-in wrinkles on top of the instep (not round the ankle) "Hussar" boots (botte a la Hussard) introduced from Hungary; and the similar cut boots with very stiff leg linings (none at ankle for flexibility) "Prussian" boots (botte a la Prussienne), after the Prussian uniform. These were crimped (blocked) smooth with no wrinkles on top of the instep or around the ankles. Both boots had the fancy curved top-line with the notch or dip in the front. The English first adopted the side-seamed, so-called "Austrian" or "Hessian" boot, in the 1794-5 [Rees:1813 p.120], copying a German version. They smoothed out the wrinkles in crimping (blocking) the front, eventually drafted-out (reduced) the side-seams to shape, to bring the ankle in (rather than merely blocking out the back of the leg for shape), and thus gave us the famous "Wellington" boot.
Ah yes, now my computer downloaded your diagram. Thanks. Just had so-so results crimping (blocking) virtually the same one-piece boot for a lady customer. They were a very supple, glovey, chrome leather upper with a light lining. I gave up trying to crimp them by hand on a board--none of mine were wide enough to do the whole piece. I had recourse to an Italian (brand?) hydraulic steam crimping machine, but the angle of its aluminum "board" ("L" shaped thingie) was not a sharp enough right angle, so there are still a few wrinkles at the very break-point.
Back to the drawing board [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]
The antique boots from Praha were side-seamed on one side only, but otherwise all one piece in the upper--not quite as straight forward as the one you showed. As to a "history guy's" input then, I've not seen any quite like you show, but I've spent too little time in Central and Eastern Europe looking, and most of my time in England and Western Europe.
Somebody did ask about the rigid leg linings, etc. (soft at the ankles): as far as I know by about 1820 the French and Western Europeans called the two-piece, whole-cut boots (side-seamed) with the molded-in wrinkles on top of the instep (not round the ankle) "Hussar" boots (botte a la Hussard) introduced from Hungary; and the similar cut boots with very stiff leg linings (none at ankle for flexibility) "Prussian" boots (botte a la Prussienne), after the Prussian uniform. These were crimped (blocked) smooth with no wrinkles on top of the instep or around the ankles. Both boots had the fancy curved top-line with the notch or dip in the front. The English first adopted the side-seamed, so-called "Austrian" or "Hessian" boot, in the 1794-5 [Rees:1813 p.120], copying a German version. They smoothed out the wrinkles in crimping (blocking) the front, eventually drafted-out (reduced) the side-seams to shape, to bring the ankle in (rather than merely blocking out the back of the leg for shape), and thus gave us the famous "Wellington" boot.
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elstoof
Re: Pattern making
Rob,
Yes, all the examples there have a back seam, but I don't see why it's essential. Lasting might be a problem as there's no curve already sewn into the heel from the seam, but there's an old old shoe in what we call the museum with no seams at all...
Nick
Yes, all the examples there have a back seam, but I don't see why it's essential. Lasting might be a problem as there's no curve already sewn into the heel from the seam, but there's an old old shoe in what we call the museum with no seams at all...
Nick
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large_shoemaker_at_large
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Re: Pattern making
Hi All
Thanks for the info on the Jodhpurs! and the historical referances. I will try to tackle a pair as time allows. I think a new longer crimping block will come first.
The largest hurdle will be getting some supple calf. Up here in the great white north good leather is hard to find especially buying over the phone.
I looked at the Lobb site and the variations are interesting.
Once again thanks. This forum sure make the world a smaller place.
Regards
Brendan Balon
Thanks for the info on the Jodhpurs! and the historical referances. I will try to tackle a pair as time allows. I think a new longer crimping block will come first.
The largest hurdle will be getting some supple calf. Up here in the great white north good leather is hard to find especially buying over the phone.
I looked at the Lobb site and the variations are interesting.
Once again thanks. This forum sure make the world a smaller place.
Regards
Brendan Balon
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marcell
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relferink
Re: Pattern making
Nick,
I would also love to see a picture, but only if it is not going to cost you your job. Do I understand you correctly that those shoes are in arguable one of the most sacred places of shoemaking, the (unofficial?) museum at John Lobb in London?
Any information you have on those shoes and the way the are made is highly appreciated.
Marcell gracefuly shared a recent experiment on a one piece seamless shoe with us in this post.
Rob
I would also love to see a picture, but only if it is not going to cost you your job. Do I understand you correctly that those shoes are in arguable one of the most sacred places of shoemaking, the (unofficial?) museum at John Lobb in London?
Any information you have on those shoes and the way the are made is highly appreciated.
Marcell gracefuly shared a recent experiment on a one piece seamless shoe with us in this post.
Rob
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elstoof
Re: Pattern making
All,
There's a showcase in the centre of the shop (the central case here http://www.johnlobbltd.co.uk/main/shopinterior.htm ) which is dubbed "the museum". There's some real treasures kept in there, the seamless boot is sort of victorian ankle button boot in style. I'll ask more about it next week and see if I can grab a few snaps of it.
Nick
There's a showcase in the centre of the shop (the central case here http://www.johnlobbltd.co.uk/main/shopinterior.htm ) which is dubbed "the museum". There's some real treasures kept in there, the seamless boot is sort of victorian ankle button boot in style. I'll ask more about it next week and see if I can grab a few snaps of it.
Nick