Lasting

[jenny_fleishman]

Thoughts and questions. What is the "holdfast"?

re why cork might be used when leather scraps are lying around and free...my guess would be it's a timesaver in terms of the labor involved.

Question re leather scraps as filler...are you all describing using multiple small pieces that don't fill the whole area...and overlapping them? If so, might the forefoot area end up feeling lumpy, even if sanded down?

This is related to my next question regarding using leather filler, which I just did--overlapping the lasting margin of the upper, and skiving it down to blend it in.

Because of the different consistencies/properties of the different leathers (veg tan for filler, layers of pigskin, veg tan, and kidskin for the lasting margin of the upper, including toe and heel stiffeners), as the shoe is worn, wouldn't the different types of leather compress differently, leading to an uneven thickness?

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

First, "multiple small pieces" ain't in it. Two pieces...one for the forepart, another for the shank cavity. The "splice" ending up slightly inside the shank cavity and well behind the tread area.

Second, it's not the filler that is supposed to conform to the foot...it is the insole itself. Cork does, indeed, take on the shape of the foot...to its detriment, in my mind. Where the foot is making a deep impression in the insole, the cork will migrate out from under, leaving no cork or cushioning under that spot on the insole and forcing the insole leather into direct contact with the outsole. Lots of potential (almost certainty) for creaking.

One wonders what is gained...and, more importantly, what is lost...when haste impels us to make unnecessary expenditures or take short cuts.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dearbone]

Al,DW,

Thank you for your insight in clearifing the causes of sqeaking,few years ago i changed to bubberized cork for the foreparts for cost reasons and i had a customer for the first time complained about one of his four pairs squeaks,although i got rid of the squeaking by replacing the soles,but did not understand why the squeak on the first place,i think i know now and will go back to using leather for filler.
Nasser.

[homeboy]

Jenny,

I've gotten out of the habit of "marking" my pics to identify certain parts, but here's a pic of an insole. The "holdfast" is the strip of the insole between the feather (outside edge of the insole) and the "inside channel" (the awled strip closest to the middle of the insole).

7244.jpg

My two cents on the "filler" comments. I agree wholeheartedly with D.W., for the reasons he has mentioned. I have tried cork! It migrates and bottoms out!

[mack]

Covers.
These can be a great help when working with delicate materials. Some leathers ( analine, crust ,suede etc....) mark so easily it makes sense to use a cover which is easy to do and easy to remove showing no trace its been there.
In the old days paper was used. Some makers like to use a material like a cotton bed sheet.
This is pretty easy to fit but very difficult to remove cleanly so I dont favour it myself.
Next are various plastics which I like best as they are flexible and remove without trace.
Clingfilm works well but needs to be used in a treble layer to prevent tearing,other makers I know swear by using feeezer bags but I have not tried these myself.
As far as I can see the methods I will describe are only suitable for sewn work.There may well be a method to use with stuck work but I dont know it.
The cover is put on when lasting is complete.If you last wet or use a lot of moisture in your making I suggest you let the leather dry overnight before adding the cover.
The cover is gently pulled over the shoe ,you can do this with your fingers and is tacked on with lasting nails. Depending on the plastic you use an application of heat may help but be careful as heat guns can be powerful and leather and heat do not mix.You only need a few nails to hold it in place as you can allways pull it a little tighter as you sew the welt.You may find welt sewing a bit trickier at first as the bristle can snag on the material but you will soon get the feel of it and when finished you have a perfectly protected shoe or boot.
You do need to protect the cover from warm tools
so run a strip of masking tape along the edge where the fudge and waist iron will touch.
You can now stitch, apply ink and use edge tools without fear of marking the leather. When you want to remove the cover there are two ways.
1.use a v.sharp pointed knife and with the tip onto the bottom leather not the upper leather it will peel away very easily but the pressure must be very light to avoid damage.
2 Using a hot dull knife, same method applies but no risk of damage unless the knife is too hot.
I am not at work at the moment due to illness but when I return I will take a couple of photos to show how to cut the plastic to shape for a cover and pulling it over.
Hope this may be of some use
Regards Mack.

[dearbone]

Mack,

This is very intersting,using plastic for covers,I will try it next time i need to cover,having said that,when i was a maker for Fred Longtin,we made some covered shoes using thinest cotton canves(not bed sheet) and i think it was for stuck work and it can work well on sewn job,the canves cloth was cut as two main formes of the shoe/boot and sewn in the middle and lasted and finished as you described. i think the reason for using cloth is that it sticks better to the sole than plastic,but i see no such issue for sewn work. I wish you full and quick recovery Mack.
Regards Nasser.

[das]

All,

This talk about covering uppers reminded me...

A few month's back I was re-bottoming a pair of chocolate brown suede Oxfords (Lobb's) for a customer, and noticed what looked like bits of rag hanging out of the welt-uppers crevice. Upon closer inspection it turned out to be cheap cotton sheeting sewn into the inseam--I guessed from an uppers covering for cleanliness as you're discussing. I managed to pick most of it out, as it looked like hell. It was even sewn in around the seat-sewing (that peculiar overcast whip-stitching holding the quarters to the under side of the insole).

I've examined 18thc. women's silk shoes still with bits of a paper covering sewn into the inseam remaining, so the concept dates back into the 1700s.

[mack]

Al,
Yes, Lobbs use cotton sheeting for covers and while it can be cut off pretty cleanly the threads left behind can keep appearing as you wear the shoe.
Keeping work clean without a cover can be done
and I remember when an apprentice seeing a maker preparing for and lasting a delicate shoe.
A clean apron was put on ( quite an event ) and a thin pair of cotton gloves.All had been prepared beforehand and he worked very quickly.
I only saw him last the shoes but I later saw the finished shoes and they were clean and neat.
This was done in the old Meard St workshop of John Lobb which was really like something out of Dickens,I loved visiting there it was living history.
I have always found covers a safer bet and plastic seems to leave very little trace
What do you do Al for delicate work ?
Regards Mack.

[das]

Mack,

Thanks for those details. My master's-master, a delightful old German named Frederische Engelke (his family firm made boots for Kaiser Wilhelm before Fred left Germany) bequeathed to my master (which passed to me) his "spare" tool kit--mostly a wonderful assortment of immaculately-kept edge irons and fine bottom-finishing tools. But, in the chest were several white cotton webbing stirrup straps. I asked my master what they were for, and he said they were for women's shoes, to keep them clean--we all know how dirty our regular leather stirrups get.

What do I do for "delicate work"? *Hahahaha*, I largely try my best to avoid it. Seriously though, no, I put a clean linen towel on my thigh in lieu of an apron (dirtier than the work usually), keep a slip of paper under my stirrup strap for cleanliness, and make all my threads the day before, so my hands are not covered in wax the day I'm going to actually sew/stitch. As for welt-stitching I lay a rub-strip of clean leather all around the vamp at the welt, to act as a stand-off guide for the stitching-awl, as well as to protect the upper from the awl blade rubbing on in, or from streaky trails of wax if the stitching thread drags across it in pulling the stitches in.

But mostly I just try to avoid "delicate" work. We use mostly black waxed-calf uppers, or greasy curried leather, so even bringing fine, light colored uppers--forget textiles--into the shop would be suicidal. Besides, we heat with an open fireplace, so everything gets covered with wood ash if we're not careful

[big_larry]

Friends,

I hope we experience common solutions as well as common difficulties.

I have been lasting about a pair of boots every week. One of the most difficult things I have ran into is getting the blasted things off the last after stacking the heels. Some are more difficult than others and with the help of a "full nelson, steer wresteling hold, atomic drop, and the Lamoze method," I have been able to wrestle the boots off the last up until now.

I have considered attaching an air connection and using air pressure to help get them off, I have considered mild explosives to blow them off, and even a hydrolic ram like those on a tire changer.

At the present time I have a pair of stove pipe boots that look a bit like full wellingtons, that refuse to leave the last. I have twisted side to side, applied copious amounts of water on the outside and talcum powder on the inside, and reached full cardio in the process. I am out of ideas!

Does anyone have any suggestions? My wife suggested using the knife and sewing in a zipper after the surgical removal. I really hate to do this, however,.

I would really appreciate any suggestions.

Thank you,
Larry Peterson

[sorrell]

Oh, Larry, you have my sincere sympathies...I've been there way too many times. I don't have any helpful advice other than find a chiropractor and a massage therapist.

Several years ago DW sent me a computer drawing of a last puller he has. I had one built and it's really been a big help. It holds the boot upside down. You stick the last puller in the boot and instead of standing on the handle, you stick the end into a lever that you step on. That way you're using your body weight (and I've got plenty of that!) instead of brute strength (not so much) to pull your last.

Lisa

[fred_coencped]

Larry,have you tried a heat gun,carefully to warm the feather line?Any glue that gets between the upper and insole can be a nitemare and the heat will soften that bond.Do not overheat your leather and destroy your work!
Fred

[headelf]

I thought I had a picture of DW's last puller from my class time there. Alas, no.

So DW do you have a picture of that puller or would you be willing to post the computer drawing?

Dick Andersen also makes a low tech post type of last puller that bolts to a bench.

Georgene

[dw]

I will look for the diagram...it is here somewhere on the computer.

Larry do you peg your shanks? What size peg are you using?

I actually have quit with the last puller (it's in storage) even though I still have a weak back. I decided that despite what I had learned from my teacher and thought I knew, that I didn't need to drive a quarter inch of peg into the last.

I have a lot of long pegs, from Germany. I drive them just to the point where they are just hitting the last--you can feel the difference in the resistance of the peg and and you can actually hear a difference too.

At that point they are about an eighth of an inch proud.

I have some side nippers that I modified to cut flush and I nip them off level with the sole. When I am done pegging, I hammer everything in tight and that drives the pegs a little more. I only do this in the shank and I peg at ten to the inch. the pegs flush around the heel.

I don't have any trouble pulling the lasts anymore and I haven't had a sole come back yet. The pegs are generally though the insole just enough to need a little floating and that's all.

When you drive 160 pegs a quarter inch deep into a last, it's hard to break that bond pulling laterally on them. Even the last puller had problems sometime--it always worked but it would collapse the boot sometimes when the pegs were in there really, really solid.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Larry
I hate wrestling lasts the only time a shoemaker has to break a sweat, god forbid... Not to be an ass but is there some kind of hinge/instep cutout to help reduce the last to get out? our are you useing a solid AKA 1 piece last?
Given if your toe puff has adhered to the last you will see some stress pulls to the point of adhesion when wrestling heat tap or apply solvent as needed. Not real gentle work but???. Do you have a hole in the top of a last to insert a steel rod to get a mechanical advantage? This can help POP the heel. Or did you make the shaft to tight and need surgical removal? I Make ortho and had to bust a plaster last to get it out and the client just slid his foot in goes against intuition.
As DW said if you pegged it in well, good luck and eat some extra calories,
Keep us posted
Regards
Brendan

[dearbone]

Larry,

That's a tough one,we all been there,you have been given good advice above,if DW is correct about the pegs driven into the last and you tried everything with no result and i say this with caution and as last resort before putting a knife to them because this solotion never worked for me,not easy to put zipper with sole and insole already there.
Soak the boots in a tab of water all the way for few minutes,long enough for the insoles to get wet,give it a try,if the last comes out,hang them up side down to dry,your luck depends on the type of leather used to make the boots.
my 2 cents worth.
Nasser.

[dw]

Larry,

On the several occasions (thankfully, even though I am a slow learner, I do learn) when I have had a boot pegged in to the point that I could not pull the last, I did something similar to what Nasser suggests...I poured a little water into the boot and let it sit for a half hour or so. The pegs soften up and, while not easy it is easier.

On other occasions, I have taken a dead-fall hammer, sprung the last and while the last/boot was mounted on the lapjack, hammered the hellgramites out of the back of the heel stack--trying to drive the boot forward on the last. That does work to at least break the pegs but it will dern sure test whether your heel block is on firm or not.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[big_larry]

Today I will wrestle this boot again. I really appreciate all the help. I assure you that I will use all of the information.

DW, I do peg the shanks. I use the 5/8 pegs and usually have to sand off the tips that come through.

I will post the results this evening.

Thanx again to all you folks!

Larry Peterson

[relferink]

Larry,

I may be too late with this and it's a shoemakers way but as a last resort it may help you. Use a leather belt, the kind that shoemakers use to inseam in their lap, take a lag screw and washer, through the belt and screw in the top of my last after pre-drilling a pilot hole. With an extension on your socket wrench you should be able to reach inside the boot to secure the screw into the cone. Step into the leather belt with your foot, hold the boot and stretch your leg. Repeat as needed until the last comes out.
This way you use your leg muscles to pull the last out. You'd be surprised how strong you are when the only alternative seems is cutting up your work.

Good luck and just think off how much time and money you safe by not having to go to the gym.

Rob

[toeflower]

I guess nows a good time to inquire after pegs. I'm working through a small stash of 4/8 pegs and will be very sorry when they run out. According to the bootmaker I learned from, who still covets a few quarts, 4/8 pegs used to be easy to find. But now "bootmakers ask fur those durned long paigs that tear up your lasts so the finders dont carry the short ones anymore". 4/8s are good on the outside row and 5/8s on the inside row of the shank. OBaltor sent me a sample of short ones but they were too skinny. Are 4/8 pegs available in Europe?

Suzanne

[big_larry]

Friends,

I won!! Both boots are off their last. I ruined the heel, counter and counter cover on one boot though. I am tearing it apart and will relast it. I am using the Mallory to reshape the one that can be saved.

Fred, the heat gun was a good idea, not only for the removal but for the tear-apart.

Lisa, Thank you for your care and consirn. It sounds like you have experienced this problem before.

Georgene, I hope that boot puller becomes available. I bent 2 of the 1/2 inch studs before going to town and getting a 1/2 inch aircraft grade bolt. I bent it a tiny bit but I think is is ok to use.

Brendan, Your idea about the rod is a really good one. I have decided to drill through the front cone of this pair of lasts and then use the band saw to cut the cone off as deep as I can. I will then thread the lower part of the last and drill out the top part so I can bolt it back togather. I will weld a heavy washer to the top so I can iether un-bolt it by hand or get a rod with a hook into the washer's eye to un-twist it and remove the front cone before pulling. I will pre-drill and tap the rear part of the cone to use the rod to assist pulling the last.

Nasser, I followed your instructions and wet the boot down. It did help.

D.W., I did use the dead fall hammer with my soling belt on the heel and my foot on the sling bottom to get the mechanical advantage.

Robert, you are right on the mark! I am going to modify this particular pair of lasts and I am going to pre drill every pair I use from now on.

To all, Thank you for the help. I used every bit of counsel I was given for the 3 day ordeal. I was going to post a picture of the damaged boot but I have ran out of patience with my "NERO" program. I made one feble try on the trial posting but the jpeg was not compatable with the nero. Right now I am just very thankful for all the help. I'm glad this wasn't my first pair of boots. I might have taken up stamp collecting instead of boot making.

Again, my heartfelt thanx.

Your friend, Larry Peterson

[paul]

Atta boy Larry!

Great report!
I liked it!

I've always worried about this happening to me. I've appreciated what you've brought to the lesson.

Thank you,
Paul

[dw]

Larry,

Wow! What a painful experience.

I still am not sure what your original problem was. Did you narrow it down?

It occurred to me...sadly after the fact...that there might be a simple explanation for your difficulties. My teacher told me a story years and years ago that was sufficient to make me extremely cautious. Because of that story I have never experienced this particular problem myself. But I remembered it after reading your account.

Mike taught me to dust the inside of the boot liberally with talcum powder prior to lasting. This is actually pretty common practice and reference can be found to the same procedure in the literature although the talcum powder is usually called "french chalk." Most of us who use this technique obtain our "french chalk" in the form of baby powder.

But there is baby powder and baby powder. Mike recounted as how he had, without knowing the difference, bought a bottle of baby powder that was composed mostly of cornstarch rather than talc. Since he lasted wet, the cornstarch made up into a wonderful glue and the result was exactly the kind of problem that you had. Mike had to cut the boots off the last.

If any of this sounds familiar and you still don't have a culprit for your problem, look at the bottle of baby powder that you're using. It will list the ingredients. The only ingredient should be talc and perhaps fragrance. No cornstarch...zero.

Anyway...I hope that helps and I wish you no more days like you have just had.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dearbone]

Larry,

I am sorry for your lost, TO PEG OR NOT TO PEG THE SHANK? I wanted to say something about this for some time,but was afraid offending one of you,peging around shank,i don't know how old or where it came from,i peged all round and was tought by my teacher how to peg,"Farmers shoes" as he called them,baby powder,he poured on lasts and inside upper and hand rubed it well,this was 1800c period shoes,made to order for the government,but we usually stitch the soles to the heel and sometime all around,and no need for peging around the shank to secure it,I know your machines can only stitch the foreparts,five hand stitched on each side of the shank can be made to avoid the use of pegs,or if you have to peg,why not put a steel plate on the last,so the pegs will hit the plate and clinched instead of driving them deep in the last,because clinch is what you want,still need to rasp after ,but much easier,I never had a shank flying out of a shoe or a boot even when they are only cemented,i use shanks that are covered with thin cloth,they stick better to the insole,but i also shape them well to take the arch,than cover the cavity with good peice leather,for low heels i use wooden sticks(ice cream sticks),they don't ring the bell at airports either.
my rant for today.
Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

Hopefully, the current membership of the Crispin Colloquy is open-minded enough that you don't need to worry about offending anyone by posing reasonable questions or comments.

As for pegging...it is a traditional technique when making cowboy boots (although some regard it as too hard to do or too slow).

There was a rather famous bootmaker in San Antonio, I believe, by the name of Cosimo Luchesse. He did a series of experiments in the 30's and 40's testing the stability and longevity of a pegged shank versus a stitched shank.

Now understand that on a cowboy boot the shank can be...in most cases historically, probably is...a heavy, hand forged nail. This creates a pronounced "fiddleback" through the shank.

Back in the day, the stirrup that was preferred among working cowboys was known as an "oxbow stirrup." It is/was narrow and round and usually made of brass or bronze--very different from the flat bottomed English style stirrup and the bell bottom stirrups we sometimes see today.

There were good reasons these kinds of stirrups were preferred, not the least of which is the fact that most of the horses in a cattleman's string (I believe "cavvy" is the correct term) were roughstock and only somewhat broken.

The pronounced fiddleback in the shank of the traditional cowboy boots fit the oxbow stirrup and allowed the rider to slide his foot deep into the stirrup where, should the ride get a little wild in rough country, he would feel more secure. And it also minimized the chance of getting "hung in the stirrup" should the rider be thrown.

Cosimo Luchesse's experiments proved conclusively that given the conditions to which the cowboy boot was subjected, the pegged shank stood up better...retaining its fiddleback shape and lasting longer...than the sewn shank. Bar none.

And, to this day, the cowboy boot, being an icon of American history, retains a good deal of its traditional form and function. All of which adds to its unique appeal.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on May 25, 2008)