The Crispin Colloquy

Paul,

I simply meant that often times when a customer has a lot of lateral bulge, the high and low instep girths will be shy of where they need to be. Adding a build-up over the instep to compensate is not necessarily the way to go. That'll throw the long and short heels girths off. Doing as you are already doing and building out to the foot print is the better answer...and as, or more importantly, it models the foot.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Dw,

SO the foot imprint really, tells us where the build up needs to go?

And a related question, It seems I have once built up the high and low instep over the crest of the cone, and had trouble getting the last out. I have since built up to just shy of going over the top.

And, I've never been sure how to approach building up the SH (or, heaven forbid), grinding the SH. Some of it would have to do with the arch length, determind by the imprint too, right?

Your thoughts, please.

PK

Paul,

Yes, foot imprint is probably one of the top three pieces of information you can gather from the foot--it will define the width of the starting last...no wider than the heelseat; and tell you where your build-up should be placed if at all possible.

I have a student in my shop right now. We had to grind off the last on top of the ball area because the last, while measuring correctly, was not wide enough for the footprint. This is a rare and to-be-avoided-if-possible situation. Fortunately, he is somewhat advanced over my other students.

Like cutting the last, I try to avoid building up over the cone of the last...at least more than an eighth inch. But sometimes it's unavoidable. I try to avoid it not because I've ever had any problems pulling the last but simply because it changes the look and lines of the boot. And besides, if we move from a 7A, for instance, to a 7E, the cone doesn't get significantly higher (although it might get a little bit higher, especially size to size)...it gets thicker. And that's the way the increased girths are achieved throughout the run

Short heel can be adjusted, if need be (and hopefully not ever by cutting) in a number of ways--build-ups over the cone; build-ups on the side of the heel (which, by the way, have legitimate antecedants in the Elder Shoe Scrolls); build-ups on the side of the cone, and so forth. Rarely does the short heel has to be adjusted by grinding...if so, chances are you've chosen a last with too wide a heelseat. Check the footprint.

Just my view, hope this helps...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,
That was a VERY informative post--thanks!

I wanted to ask you about your quote: "Rarely does the short heel has to be adjusted by grinding...if so, chances are you've chosen a last with too wide a heelseat."

I've had two customers who had very flat insteps. I misfit both of them the first time because I really have a problem recognizing that flat instep. With both of them I ended up having to grind off some of the cone of the last. The heel width of the last matched their heel width and the short heel appeared to match, but I had to make their short heel smaller than their measurements would indicate. Have you ever experienced this? Do you have any tips on recognizing this type of foot and adjusting for it?

Lisa

Lisa,

thank you...

Actually, I don't think I've ever had a customer where I had to grind down the last to get the short heel correct. Seems like there's always another way. I don't guess I can help you much. But, I will take the opportunity to comment...

My only thought is that sometimes I find myself adjusting the short heel by adding build-ups on the sides of the heel--allowing the heel seat to remain the same width as the last and the footprint, and not touching the instep girths. I see this kind of foot--rigid and heavy--once in a while. It will always print narrow and measure large. I can visualize it in my mind...the customer usually has a heavy ankle to match. I've had good luck with that approach and as I mentioned, I have run across references to similar build-ups in the literature. It doesn't make much sense to put him in a wider last..in the heelseat...ignoring the footprint, just to get the SH.

I mention this because it seems only logical to me that the opposite kind of foot must be out there somewhere--thin and flaccid...it might print wide and measure small. A thin ankle, perhaps a correspondingly thin leg and calf. And it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a low instep as well. Seems like you could start with a narrower last--one that addresses a smaller short heel and build just the heel seat area (from featherline upward maybe a half inch max) outward to accommodate the wider print.

That said, it is fairly well established principle that putting a customer in a shoe or boot built on a last with a narrower heel can often alleviate some heel pain as the narrower heel stiffener forces any excess flesh from the sides (that flaccid flesh) under the heel...under the calcaneus...to create a pad that would not ordinarily be there.

The upshot of all this rampant speculation is that perhaps one option might have been to choose a last with a narrower heelseat than the print, in the first place...with the expectation of a correct SH, as is...and an openness to ignoring the print (sacrilege!!) in this particular case.

It's an interesting problem.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,
I've seen the first scenario you mentioned, usually in older people. I had a guy just recently where the last I wanted to use was perfect for the heel width and the instep measurement was good too, but the short heel was too small. If I moved him up to a last that had the correct short heel the heel was too wide and so was the ball and instep. So I had to build it up exactly as you described...and it fit perfectly!

For the customers with the flat insteps...it really is flat. The front of the leg comes down and then the foot goes straight out at almost a right angle. There's not much arch in the instep area at all. If I could remember to always look for it I could probably spot it. But I've only seen it twice and it's so rare I forget to think about it. I could be wrong, but I think the best fit would be achieved by sanding down the cone, which is I know a horrible solution. For one thing, both of these customer were an A or AA width. I would have had to special order something like a AAAA last to get the short heel down to where it needed to be. Then I would have had to build everything else back up. And the cone needs to be flattened anyway or it doesn't fit right.

It's a weird problem and I'm glad that it's rare! I'm not trying to argue, just hoping that I'll learn something by discussing it.

Lisa

Lisa,

"I would have had to special order something like a AAAA last to get the short heel down to where it needed to be. Then I would have had to build everything else back up. And the cone needs to be flattened anyway or it doesn't fit right."


That's exactly what I had to do last year when we talked about this kind of foot. I ordered a 12 AAAA from Bill and built it up. Took 2 days! She had a bit of trouble getting into them, and I'll adjust them for the next pair. This was actually before I started taking imprints, so I don't have that for comparison, but she was wide on the outline. And I didn't widen the heel from the original. I need to get her back in here and check it out form the perspective of this conversation. That would probably explain why they were a hard pull to get on, huh?

I do remember, DW, you said you were glad she was my customer and not yours. Me too.

It seems to me that a flat arch and a low instep would always be suspect to be found together. No?

PK

PK,
"It seems to me that a flat arch and a low instep would always be suspect to be found together. No?"

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. My daughter's a scrawny little 12 year old with the narrowest foot I've ever seen. She has a nice arch but her instep is really flat. I think she's going to be the type of fit we're talking about. I haven't actually made boots for her because she's still growing. It's impossible to find shoes that truly fit her off the shelf though, so I need to start making her shoes.

And my other two customers didn't have flat arches...in fact the lady had a really high arch.

Lisa

Lisa,

I'm glad it's rare too...and I'm doubly glad it's rare in my area.

As for your analysis...you could be right...you've certainly had more experience with this foot than I have even if you've only done one or two. I guess I would be in a real funk if I ever ran across such a foot because I think that the cone of the last is critical in creating the shape of the boot. Then too, I draft the top in at the throat and I have noticed over the years that sometimes, believe it or not, if a boot breaks too low on the last it will be harder to get on than if it breaks high. Look at an English riding boot sometime and think about where the break is for one of those! And usually the throat on an English boot looks pretty narrow as well. In any case, my first...and probably wrongheaded...approach would be to do the opposite of the rigid foot---grind the sides of the comb (heel) rather than the top of the cone.

When all is said and done...I would defer to you however. I honestly don't think I have ever had such a customer and I'm sure I'm not looking forward to my first.

As for arguing...Lisa, Lisa, Lisa...I'm not opposed to arguing...your arguments are well founded, and logical, and based in experience, and make sense--they come from a person who is engaged and passionate and open minded. They make me think...think and learn. What's wrong with that?!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Lisa,

I, too, have a costumer that has an extremely low instep. It looked exactly as you described. My solution was to sell the customer the last and grind and shape the cone. I then had to pull in the throat measurement, according to the way I measure. Since this was a fairly small foot, it made turning the boot quite difficult. And once you get it turned it looked so small I started to doubt there was anyway they would fit. Everything turned out fine and the customer was pleased. I just had to trust my measurements.

Jim,
Yes! That's exactly what I had to do--make the throat smaller than I normally would, and it seemed so small I worried that they would not even come close to being able to pull it on. According to their measurements and the way I normally interpret them, they shouldn't have been able to pull them on. But the boots pulled on and fit just like they were supposed to.

I just talked to a man who had a pair of custom boots made by a good and experienced bootmaker. He was very unhappy because the right one fit well and the left one didn't fit at all. I'm more experienced with what that feels like from the bootmaker's point of view than the customer's, so I was being very noncommital. During the course of the conversation he mentioned that a few years ago his left foot had been run over by a truck in an unusual manner and it had basically flattened his instep. A light went off in my head and I described to him exactly how his left boot fit and didn't fit. He was amazed because he hadn't told me the details. He said that he had actually taken the boots back to the bootmaker, who had then remeasured him, brought out the last and measured it, and just said, "This boot should fit--I don't know why it doesn't." He seemed to feel much more forgiving about the whole thing after I told him it was a really unusual problem and easy to misfit.

Lisa

DW,
OK, thanks! I just feel silly saying, "in my experience" to bootmakers who've been doing this way longer than I have.

Lisa

Lisa,

My old saddlemaking teacher told me once that "back in the day," young saddlemakers who had any aspirations to being good, would work for a number of years with a master saddlemaker, then move on and work for another...and then another. These were generally the guys that made saddlemaking their career and ended up being the most respected. The point of story is that every maker has something that he...or she...does entirely different, and better, than any other maker. My experiences and my preferences for doing things a certain way may be different from yours. In some areas, I may be the best there is at that particular job. In others, I might be ignorant as a baby...and just as clumsy. Frank's lesson was that you need to be open to everyone because almost everyone can teach you something. And learning is what makes you good, not the number of notches on your pistol, or the years in the saddle, or the guy that taught you. That guy had *his* own, hard won reputation--one that you can't live off for very long, and won't necessarily transfer.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,
When I was little, sometimes I'd whine for my parents to tell me something they didn't think I needed to know yet. My dad would always say, "If I tell you everything I know and you know all you know, then you'll know more than me." I always think of that when I'm around bootmakers...if I can just get all of them to tell me everything they know, I'll know everything!

And by the way, I certainly didn't mean to sound like I was disparaging that other bootmaker in any way to the forum or to the customer. Fitting people is hard enough without someone stepping in and convincing them their bootmaker has done it all wrong! I simply told the guy that that particular problem was difficult to fit and both times I'd run into it I'd misfit the customers the first time myself. He had written a letter to the bootmaker expressing his dissatisfaction, and after we talked he said he was going to have to write back and apologize. Oh...and one really important thing I forgot to mention...HE NEVER TOLD THE OTHER BOOTMAKER ABOUT THE ACCIDENT! I'd be kind of ticked to be told something that important AFTER I'd made boots for someone!

Lisa

Photos of my latest mold-making system for duplicating lasts....

Part 1:

I am leaving out a lot of details, so if anyone wants to try this at home, let me know and I'll give you some of the finer points and pitfalls to avoid

First...the material I'm using is Durham's Rock Hard Water Putty, available at Menards, etc. Someone who reads the board e-mailed me privately when I was looking for alternatives to Liquid Last. Mucho thanks to that person! Durham's is much like plaster, non-toxic, doesn't smell bad, and when it's dry, you can tack into it! I'm also using it for making the molds.

Here we go...

This is a molding box with drop down sides that I built. The extra pieces of board at one end are to take up extra space when copying smaller size lasts. There is a clear liner in the box.


The last being copied is my most recent version. Duct tape covers the screws, and the black markings are to help find where the mold pieces should end.(Important if you want to be able to get the casting out of the mold!) The last is sitting on already dry pieces of putty, to support it during the next step.

Next, is making the bottom of the mold. Pour the putty into the box and set the last on the blocks. When the putty is thick enough, I push some extra under the toe since it sticks up slightly from the putty.


When it is just set, I drop down the sides of the box, and can remove the whole thing from the box if preferred, to scrape away the putty down to the marked lines. I also make some indentations in the surface of the putty so that the other pieces of the mold will sit properly on the bottom piece.



Continued in next message...

Moldmaking, continued...

Here is a picture just before making the first half of the upper part of the mold.(I let each part of the mold harden for a day before doing the next section.) I have melted wax over the surface of the bottom piece of the mold. The wire mesh will be put in after I have slathered some putty on the side and top surface of the bottom piece of the mold, and then I will put additional putty on top of the wire mesh. The mesh is not absolutely necessary, but helpful in some ways. I mix the putty thicker than for the bottom of the mold...about the consistency of cake frosting.


After the putty is set, I again us the sculpting tools to find the markings of the center line. Let it dry overnight and then melt wax over the appropriate surfaces. Here it is, ready for the last piece of the mold to be made:


Here it is, completed:


And here is the mold, opened up:


Voila! The results of months and months of experimentaion.

A few other things...I also coated the original last with melted wax (Rob, I love that heat gun!). All the waxed surfaces were also painted with a soapy mold release agent, which I'm not sure was necessary, but better be safe than sorry. The mold also requires a little touch-up to the inside surfaces where there were bubbles or air pockets, but nothing major.

The cons...it's messy and time consuming.
The pros...It creates an accurate mold that can be used multiple times.

If anyone has a easier system, I'd love to hear about it, too. This system is a variation of the the technique used by Wilson Gracey in his plaster-casting video. He showed making a 2-piece mold, and I did a couple of those, but because of the irregular shape of lasts, it is sometimes impossible to get the last out of the mold. So I adapted the method to make a 3-piece mold.

Jenny

Here are some photos of my homemade lasts. The one on the left is from the pair I made my fitter shoe on. The one on the right (for the left foot) is from my new revised pair. Besides a few fit issues, I was unhappy with the "clown shoe" shape of the vamp area of the fitter shoe, so tried to restyle the toe box area with a squared off shape. I'm thinking it's going to be murder to last around those corners, though. I also narrowed the area around the topline and made some other minor changes.



I put in a square hollow metal piece to serve as a ferrule so I can put the last on a last stand, which I haven't finished making yet. I put the metal in the last during the casting process...pictures below.



Any advice on lasting around the corners on the new lasts would be appreciated. I'm not going to even attempt it with the leather I used for my fitter shoe! Hoping to try a lined shoe. I'm slowed down in my progress because for the past few months I have been suffering from "trigger thumb" in both hands .

Jenny

Jenny

I have been doing alot lately and was suprised to se how far you are getting along. You are doing great.

A little tip about the toe shape. Is you imagine your foot in the last, you will see that there is alot of space in front of the little toe. That part can be lower. It give the illusion that the shoe/last is not that wide. This also prevents a hole right after the toe box ends. That empty space above the foot makes the skin bend in a not so purty! way.

I made my first last like yours and found that it was not just talk. If there is a larger toe spring then it can be worse. I believe that I posted some pictures that showed the toe.

Catch you later
CW

Chris,

Thanks. I feel like I am progressing at a snail's pace!

I can see the logic of what you are saying about the creasing, but I prefer not to angle the squared off end of the toe box, as I think the shape would look funny. Is there anything I can do with the toe stiffener (perhaps make it longer by the little toe?) to improve the way the vamp area will bend?

Hoping to finish making my last stand this weekend...

Jenny

Jenny

You can make it a little longer but can be playing with fire.

You could also make sure the side stiff. is thicker and/or comes farther over the side so that it covers more of the top of the last/shoe.

I must admit that both ideas are not for a ladies shoe. They make it look more thick and bootish.

I think the way to do it is build up the last under the big toe. You can just add a shived pcs. of leather to the bottom and finish it with the knife.

After that you can take some off the top of the last toe in even amounts( Lat. and med. side)

I'll check to see if the pictures I posted show the "deep big toe" on my wifes lasts.

CW

Jenny,

Good progress on your lasts. I would not worry to much about the lasting of the corners. It looks like you have a lot less volume in the toe box so getting the leather around it would be easier. With the right leather and possible some wet lasting you should be fine. I don't even think you will have to wet last for the toes sake. If you want to do that anyway not problem but I don't see the need.

Chris I understand your concern about to much “empty space” at the lateral side. This really depends on the orientation of the forefoot. From the pictures it is hard to see but if you draw the bottom of the last, like an insole pattern and put it over your Harris mat imprint you can see how much there really is. A toe like the one you made is a little tricky since you want it nicely centered on the shoe but the taper needs to be substantial from the ball of the foot to the tip of the toe. You can probably also loose a little height on the lateral side over the toes. Tapering that some more will give the shoe a sleeker appearance and make the lasting easier since the angles are less sharp.

As to dropping the toe some, that's a great technique to get more volume without having to add to the top and making the lasting harder. I would be careful using this unless you make an orthotic directly to the last. This way you can level out the lower spot and still end up with a flat bottom on the shoe. Earlier on this forum a discussion was held about the convex bottom shape of lasts. It may be a little late but to add to that, if you can get some of the volume needed in the bottom in stead of over the top lasting the leather will be a little easier.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Keep up the good work.
Rob

Fit question...just finished my fitter shoes last night. They almost fit! (Main lasting problem...one of lasts cracked in two and slightly crumbled at the ball of the foot. Spent a lot of time putting Humpty Dumpty back together again! )

But I am confused about the throat and ball measurements of the last. Should the ball measurement of the last be the same as the foot? That would seem impossible if the shoe fits as the "Professional Shoe Fitting Manual" recommends, which is that when the shoe is untied, you should be able to slide your foot forward in the shoe enough to slip a pencil in the shoe behind your heel to allow enough room when you bend up on the ball of your foot.

If the throat is bigger than the foot to allow enough room for that, how could the ball measurement of the last possibly be the same as the foot, as those to areas of the last are right next to each other? Thanks.

Jenny

Jenny,

Have been busy and had family visit from Holland and Australia last month. I'm just now trying to catch up on the Crispin Colloquy and realize you have probably moved beyond the fitting shoe at this point but I'll post my comments anyway just in case someone is interested.
Where did you get the impression that the ball measurement of the last is the same as the shoe? I always have my ball measurement 1 cm larger than the foot measured with a sock. In case of diabetics, people with compromised circulation and swelling even more. Depending on the style of shoe and type of closure the throat measurement can be exact to the foot.

You also should carefully consider that the shoe fitters manual is not written by shoemaker but by shoe fitters. These people sell ready made shoes and try to fit those to whatever foot they encounter. As long as you keep in mind that you are dealing with 2 different but related subjects, shoe fitting experience can be highly beneficial to any shoemaker.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by

... to allow enough room when you bend up on the ball of your foot.

I assume it's from the shoe fitters book, why would you need room if you bend up the ball of the foot, the shoe should flex and stay on your foot, not make you foot slide forward.

Rob

Rob, I'm not sure of my vocabulary, but I think the idea is that when you bend up at the ball of the foot, if there isn't enough room just above the joint, the shoe will be too tight there...

As for the ball measurement of the last being the same or smaller than the foot measurement, I believe I read it here. If not here, then in last-making books.

Jenny

Jenny, Robert,

I don't recall but you very may well have heard it here first. In making boots we want the measurement on the last to be exactly the same as the measurement on the foot. And when I make lace-ups, I don't change that philosophy.

My basic approach is that taking anything off a measurement (or adding anything) is introducing an additional element of "smoke and mirrors"...guesswork...hearsay, if you will.

Now, I don't make shoes but I have heard (and read) that some shoemakers will add extra at the ball to compensate for tab thickness...and even change that extra amount according to the weight of leather being used. So don't mind me.

But in thirty five years of making and with some guidance from my teacher, I have come to rely on my hands to find an accurate measurement rather than taking a "gosh and by golly" measurement and then subtracting "X". (shudder) And I've never made an allowance for kangaroo or five ounce latigo. Go figure.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC