Lasting

[dw]

Rob, Al,

I can't say I've noticed any problem with brittleness in the press cement. It's true it will crack with enough flexion, but fully dry HirschKleber will too, in my experience. Press cement is, I think, a by-product (?) of the old celluloid film industry and the film had to be flexible, didn't it?

All that said, some press cements are more brittle than others. Depends on the amount and type of "plasticizer" that has been added.

I haven't got up the nerve to just slather some HirschKleber in between the vamp and the toe puff and let it go. I'm still using press cement there. But one of these days...

How about dextrine...I've been using it, alternating with the HK, but I don't have enough experience with it to know what it will do long term...?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

DW,

I've done many shoes with a thin leather toe puff and lots of HK on both sides. I've also done 'your' press cement to box on several shoes now.

Your method results in a more rigid toe box and also allows shaping whereas the HK toe box is just skived and that's about all you can do. It can also be rigid depending on how thick the leather is and how much HK is used.

I like both methods but yours seems a little more precise.

[das]

DW,

I think maybe 100% celluloid strips in cine film, on it's own, is more flexible than leather saturated with press cement. What I'm curious about with PC, is how well did it work as an adhesive, like for sticking soles on? Being an old Barge-AP-man, that's all I've relied on for sticking soles, but after the crash course on adhesives at this year's AGM, I am temped to try some other products when I run out next time.

[dw]

Al,

Well, from my experience...PC doesn't soak in very far. But even when it does, it doesn't lose the flexibility it has. When you combine the flexibility of the leather toe puff and the flexibility of the PC there may indeed be a net decrease in flexibility but there is no corresponding increase in in brittleness--which if we think about other materials...such as spring steel, certain kinds or wood, bamboo, etc....makes sense and seems to imply that flexibility and brittleness are not necessarily synonymous.

As for adherence...when I was first getting into this whole crazy business, the Shoe Service Institute of America (shoe repairmen) sponsored a contest every year. They may still do so...I don't know.

At that time, the fairly common (to hear my teacher tell it), c. 1930's practice of using PC and shoe presses to affix outsoles had given way to all-purpose cements and a simple hammer. But for a while there, all the top Shoe Service awards...the Silver Cup (?)...in the half sole division were won by shoes which relied upon press cement to create that crucial bond at the half sole splice.

Why? Unlike AP, when the splice was scraped or sanded, it remained both firm and flexible. More importantly the heat of sanding did not affect it and cause it to loosen the way AP was wont to do. So the splice and the transition from new sole to old sole could be very clean and very certain.

Press cement is the super glue of another age...but it does need pressure when drying/curing.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

DW,

Great insights! Thanks for posting that. I guess I may snap up a sole press if I ever find one, and give it a try. When I first (and I mean first) started around 1973, I was being guided by an ancient Italian shoemaker, Lorenz Scrocco, who'd worked as a hand-laster in US factories in the 19-teens and '20s. Like so many of those guys, he had taken up repairing, but still knocked out a pair of shoes once in a while. All he ever used or showed me was Barge and hammering soles on. The only time I've had heat-releasing--the-AP-bond problems was with Vibram lug soles and midsoles developing a tiny crevice letting go right at the edge during sanding.

It's been ages since I half-soled anything with leather--I usually do whole-soles including new heels--but I can see where PC would work a charm right there at that feather-lip of the graft. Neat. Thanks.

[mack]

Rob,
Had a look at the jars in the workshop. The metrotex has no info at all, just a batch no.
The polymer paste is called Gripso
and I quote 'a modified poymer paste used to bond absorbent materials such as cork, leather and textiles'.To clean it off warm soapy water is recommended.
Thats as much info as I have, I'm sure you have a similar product in the US.
Regards Mack.

[relferink]

Mack,
Thanks, I found a polymer paste with that info on the algeos site.
Based on the info on the safety data sheet it seems not all that different from Dextrine.
I may just have to try 1/2 liter, they are priced reasonable enough and shouldn't require hazardous shipping charges.

Al,
You are not only appreciated but our best defense in fighting misinterpreted historical facts. You must have to clarify the myth that straight lasted shoes were interchanged between feet at least 50 times a day and than you still have the energy to do the same here. If I had to walk in your shoes it would be enough to drive me over the edge.

[relferink]

All,

Thanks for all that great information. From all the information I can find on Dextrine it is a modified starch that is formulated to be more moisture resistant. Based on Al's comment HirchKleber does not have that moisture resistance feature. As with so many applications there is a place for any of them. The ability of HK to shape and re-set is certainly useful but has to be used cautiously to prevent the shoe from getting torqued out of shape the the owner to quickly.

PC has some really good features going for it as DW has pointed out. Another benefit of PC is that is does not leave a rubbery residue, it hardens so it can be smoothed easier. The neoprene rubber residue in AP will always leave a little mark. With advances in AP we now have colorless AP and the amount of neoprene filler is not as much as in the “early days” of AP. In school I was taught not to close my sole stitching channel with AP but with PC so it would not leave a noticeable mark when finished. HK would not be good as the sole will get wet regularly and one does not want the channel to open and dirt to get in.

The silver cup completion still exists. Sponsored by the SSIA. I do not know if price wining work is still made with PC, I doubt it as the generation that knows how to use it best, the ones that have worked with it on a daily basis are getting hard to find.

Rob

[das]

Rob,

Thanks for the kind thoughts. Yes, it really can get to be a bit much, especially when you have 20 people in the shop, and one asks...., then after I answer, another asks.... It's gotten up 3 or 4 people in the same group asking the same question. It is fun, however, when one tourist turns on the other, and says "hey stupid, weren't you listening? He just got through answering that question!". Keeps me from losing my job by saying it

The main problem with the straight shoes thing, every house-museum, living-history site, and most reenactors all still promulgate the myth. I'm just one of those "reality-based" people the White House decries from time to time. On the general dilemma we face in the education-biz within museums, especially relative to adults, see: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/15/AR2008021502901. html

[das]

Rob,

In re Hirschkleber softening and re-setting: this is not always a bad quality, and it's not instant upon getting wet, just over time. In my mind--not that you were suggesting this--but if a shoe walks that badly out of shape, it way have been the wrong shape to begin with. If the stiffeners, side-linings, toe-boxes were treated with anything so unyielding that they could not conform somewhat to the foot, I'd think that shoe would be uncomfortable to wear

[jenny_fleishman]

I've been reviewing prior messages about fillers and shank covers...thanks again, Chris Williamson, for the wonderful photo essay in 2006. Well, here I am asking almost the same question again in 2008! It takes me so long to make my shoes that I sometimes re-ask questions because I've forgotten the answers to the questions I don't remember asking the first time around! So my apologies for times when my questions are redundant.

However, I still do have a question about filler. Is there a reason not to extend the leather shank cover/filler all the way to the toe to function as filler at the forefoot also? What would the reason be for using cork (or something else?) to fill the ball area between the lasting margins, instead of just continuing the leather shank cover the whole length of the exposed insole? Thanks!

Jenny

[paul]

Jenny,

I'm going to stick my opinion out and say it's to facilitate repairs.

(All that follows presupposes you've been reading advise relative to cowboy boots and it all changes when one is doing shoes anyway, especially ones own.)

Consider that for all the work a bootmaker puts into a handmade pair of boots, it's often a viable choice to do a half (some call it a 3/4) sole, rather than remove the heel base, which has been assembled one layer at a time, which is what would be necessary to do a full sole. With a separate filler in the forepart, if the wearer has worn through the filler, it's a simple matter to replace it with new. Obviously if it were full length it could still be cut and spliced, but then you've got skiving to do and yada yada.

Do what you want. No one is going to fault you for your choice. Besides, they're your shoeses!

At least that's my opinion!

Paul

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, Paul. Sounds like a matter of convenience, mainly.

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

Cork filler is cheap and quick but it is also migratory. I don't like it for that reason. Of course with all the high dollar wineries switching to glass stoppers in lieu of cork (they can't find really top grade cork anymore)it may be that the cork industry will start pushing it more.

Multi-piece leather bottom fill is also easier to come up with. You don't want to use quality leather or pieces that are big enough to get a shoe component out of. It's a lot easier to find an old, cold tatter that will fit in the shank cavity and another for the forepart cavity than to find a piece big enough to do both at once.

Then too, I put something a little firmer in the shank cavity and something a little softer in the forepart.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

Jenny,

Cork is the lightest-weight filler, provides a good cushion, and accepts a foot-bed; both pre-cut filler pieces (from shoe repair suppliers), and the paint/daub-in cork paste (noxious solvent fumes) perform well short-tern, but as DW says they will break down over time and turn into dust--say within 3-5 years of hard wear. So, it depends on the life-span of the footwear. I'll use the pre-cut cork bottom fill pieces in some work--I'll use two in one shoe, stuck in with AP, sanded to the shape I want. When you "rip" a sole to repair the shoes, 10 to one the cork will come out in chunks and need to be replaced entirely with new cork.

Next alternative, I prefer the traditional tarred felt--basically thick low grade recycled fibers impregnated with tar. I doubt this stuff is still made, and I'm sitting on a few "last" rolls of it I scarfed-up at the local finders from a dusty forgotten shelf. If you have a local shoe repair supply, get to know them well enough so they allow you to go shopping alone in their warehouse, where you can usually spot all sorts of cool stuff they forgot they even had.

Top grade: "there's nothing like leather" even for bottom filling, and using scraps pieced and stuck-in to fill the cavity is the "oldest" method--I've examined Roman footwear with leather bottom-filling, and haven't even seen/read of cork or felt filling until the later 1800s--so this is the venerable way :&#62

Best leather I've found are the fleshings split off the backs of oak soling. I often get bends of sole leather that run a tad too thick for my tastes, and the tanner leaves the loose flesh tissue on the back, he just slicks it down (to add weight=cost). I cut my bends into ranges (strips from spine to belly) for ease of handling, sorting, and grading. I then run these ranges through a 6" splitter (Landis with a crank handle) to split off the loose flesh on the back. I save these long 6" wide x approx. 2' fleshings, and use them as bottom fill. I wouldn't buy any special leather for bottom fill, but if you have to, the flabby, fleshy belly and off-cuts from veg-tanned "saddle skirting" or shoulders would be my choice. You want a thick but "flabby" leather, that will compress and accept a footbed under the pressure of the bones and toes. Scraps of uppers leather, especially chrome-tanned will not do this quite as well as thicker, looser, bits of veg-tanned.

[hydeandheddle]

Thanks Jenny. It's this kind of information that makes this list a goldmine for those of us just starting out.
Ron

[dw]

I don't think I've run across the tarred felt more than once or twice in my career (when I was repairing) but aside from thinking at the time that the tar was undoubtedly petrochemical based, I thought felt would probably be a good bottom filler.

The problem with anything but leather is one I've expressed before--it's hard enough to make a living in this business without buying all sorts of "new fangled" and, from one point of view, unnecessary condiments. You've paid for those scraps of leather...no matter how small they are. Each piece represents an investment and a small stack of pennies. But the main thing is that it's already paid for.

Every piece of cork sheeting and every sponge-Bob pre-cut bottom filler represents another, additional stack of pennies. In all likelihood an even taller stack than the piece of scrap leather.

What will you do with your scraps of leather...and the stacks and stacks of pennies that they represent...if you don't use them? Will you just throw them away and take a hammer to the old piggy bank just to buy something to take their place? (this is a rhetorical question...not directed at anyone--simply food for thought)

Al,

I've never heard of using veg tan fleshings but that's a great idea. I often have splits from reducing insole shoulder for one reason or another. I usually use them for build ups on lasts but some are just too soft. How thick do you want for, say, a forepart filler? I usually use 4 ounce chrome cow lining in the forepart but I'd like to see what the long term difference during wear would be.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

DW,

The fleshings range in thickness, I just AP cement enough layers of them in to fill the cavity and give me a nice convex bottom shape.

Ouuu... that sounded naughty. Sorry

To give the *shoe* a nice convex bottom shape.

[dearbone]

Al,

You got me a little distracted with your naughty description of "nice convex bottom shape" I use a certain rubberized cork(cork&cement) for the foreparts, it is light and water proof and i buy it from my local suppliar National shoe.

Regards Nasser.

[angel]

Al and DW
I've sometimes heard, or read (Golding?) that leather fillers produce noisy soles, because of friction between insole-filler-outsole while walking. This happend to me more than once. How should a filler be treated/placed/glued for solving this?

[dw]

Angel,

I was always taught that if there was a bond between the insole and the filler, and the filler and the outsole, there would be no squeaking. My experience has verified that. I have used nothing but leather forepart fillers for 35 years and never had a squeak on my own boots nor ever had a boot customer complain.

Currently, I am experimenting with using dextrine to glue the fillers in instead of all-purpose cement...the jury is still out on that but so far so good. Of course the outsole is still getting AP'd to the welt and filler.

That said when I was doing repair we'd see shoes that squeaked real regular. I have an old horse doctoring syringe and I'd fill it up with thinned all purpose and slip the needle in between the welt and the outsole and pump a little cement in there. Let 'er sit over night and it would usually be good to go.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[big_larry]

Well I thank you all for the new information. I was told as a youth that shoes only squeaked because they weren't paid for! Thank you-all for the clearification.

LP

[das]

Angel,

Squeaking, or as the English sometimes prefer "creaking", shoes and boots is usually a nuisance of course, but I have one ref. to a fellow who asked that his boots be made to "creak", so go figure. As DW says, AP rubber-type cements eliminate this, especially if you rough-up all the materials: bottom of the insole, the filler, top of the outsole, etc. with a rasp for one of those wires roughers--only smooth surfaces will squeak when they ply and burnish themselves against each other.

But, before AP cements, or for those who prefer to use paste: Rees (1813) says too much paste can lead to squeaking--no explanation, but I imagine as the paste broke down in wear, it left voids and "loose" bits that would rub. I have a pair of mine (paste not AP) that squeak a little in the heel when they haven't been worn for a while, because they've dried out.

I guess just be sure all layers, lifts, and whatnot are well rasped/roughed to begin with. Another old-fashioned solution for squeaking soles was merely to knock in a few wood pegs in across the sole to keep the layers from plying against one another. Cork and tarred felt bottom fill also were well known and employed in part because they prevent squeaking. It's one of those cases where "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

DW mentioned something yesterday that got me thinking.... as to bottom filling, of course the use of scrap leather was the most economical material, rather than specially purchased cork or felt. But, in our industry--especially on the factory level where every scrap was cost-accounted--why did they shift to using cork and felt in the first place? Surely they had bins full of off-cuts of upper leather going to waste, so why introduce these additional materials, unless there was some perceived advantage? Anybody have any ideas? I can almost see the cork-paste glop to fill the deeper cavity in a Goodyear-welted bottom--it might take a lot of jigsaw pieces of scrap and artful gluing to use that, and then I'd be afraid of squeaking

[dw]

Al, Angel,

I wonder if cork filling didn't come along when "gemming" was starting to gain a foothold with the manufacturers. As a solution for the very problem you are talking about, Al.

I have nothing to compare my work with (and when I do it doesn't always entirely measure up) but when I inseam the resulting forepart cavity is never so deep that it would need filler any thicker than leather.

On the other hand, I have seen gemmed shoes where the forepart cavity is every bit as deep as a quarter of an inch.

Speculating further, maybe felt was used because it almost self adheres...that's a bonus...and when the tar is finally rubbed away what's left is...well, felt. It's hard for me to imagine leather squeaking/creaking no matter how much movement is involved when it is plying against felt. As I said yesterday, I always thought felt would be a good filler. That said, I've never seen felt in shoes where the forepart cavity was deeper than it would be on a hand inseamed shoe.

Just my 2¢...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

It seems to me that cork allows you to shave the bottom perfectly flat (or perfectly convex) whereas a piece of leather just raises the level overall. This leaves a small dip at the inside of the holdfast, in my hands.

This dip has not been noticeable once the sole was attached. I once tried leaving the filler out all together and the dip was noticeable.

So, in theory, maybe the cork looks superior for it's finer leveling but in practice the leather does the trick.