One "Last" Question

[relferink]

Tom,

Great sugestion, never thought of using one of those. Tom,

Great suggestion, never thought of using one of those. I do worry about the ignition risk even though it has not gone wrong and the chances it will go wrong are small, (at least I hope so) since the air-fuel mixture in the gluing table needs to be just right and with enough air flow the percentage of flammable fumes should not build up enough. I also never leave it running when nobody is around and a fire extinguisher is always handy as it should be in any shop!
Do you think the bilge blower will have enough air flow and can handle running for long times? I haven't been able to buy myself a boat so I don't know how they would normally function, is it just something used to vent the engine compartment after a start or did I read that wrong?

Let us know how you like it when you start using one.

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

re grounding fans...in my ventilation set up I use a bathroom ventilation fan vented out the dining room window. When I hooked up the wiring inside the fan casing, I did connect a ground wire inside the metal casing as part of the electrical wiring. Is this all that is needed to prevent fume fires, or is there some additional type of grounding required?

Jenny

[Tom Mickel]

Well I'm certainly not an expert on this by anyones standards but if you have a mixture of flammable fumes and oxygen (air) then you have the potential for combustion regardless of whether you have good grounding or not. The question is whether you have an ignition source such as a switch or other spark producing connection. I mostly think that unless you allow a buildup of fumes then there is not much problem. You can hold a match to liquid gasoline and nothing will happen but vaporize it and you'll have a problem. Personally, I'd turn the fan on first then start cementing after the fan has been running for a minute. That should keep the air flowing and not allow a buildup of fumes. I'll try to light some all purpose cement in the yard today to see what happens. My 10 yr old son likes to help with these kind of experiments anyway.

[jenny_fleishman]

Tom, thanks, but don't injure yourself or your son on my behalf! Sounds like a dangerous experiment!

Jenny

[dw]

One of the guys that taught me the rudiments of this business, lo, these many years ago, used to light the frsh all purpose cement on the bottom of soles and/or boots to drive off the fumes and speed the drying/curing time.

What does that suggest, if anything? Outside of the fact that madness is a far more common condition than we might otherwise suppose...


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[relferink]

Jenny, Tom,

Same here, not an expert but some common sense and a dose of trial and little error . When you have attached the ground wire to the fan make sure you use a grounded outlet, not one of those connector plugs that you often need in older houses. They very rarely are connected to a ground. The idea is that if a fan is grounded no static charge can build up so none will discharge with a spark that in turn ignites the fumes. That said any and all electric motors create sparks in the process of changing electricity into motion so unless the motor is insulated from the air flow it's not really safe.

The mixture of oxygen and fumes need to be just right and in my experience you need to glue a lot in order to get enough fumes going.

If you use an exhaust on your dining room table make sure you don't get fumes building up on the floor. Since the fumes are heavy they may fall to the ground and if they get to a furnace or something with an open flame it could ignite.

Tom, just lighting the cement will make it burn, probably with some heavy smoke but it's not all that dangerous. I've seen it done trying to get a better bond on some hard to glue rubbers, the idea behind it as it was explained to me was to create a form of vulcanisation. Probably a bunch off bull but it seemed to work on getting a better bond. Have never done it myself and I certainly do not encourage anybody to try it.
It gets bad if a lot of fumes explode. A more realistic experiment would be to put just a Little bit of contact cement in a plastic bottle and let it sit for some time, than take the top of and ignite. I would not want to be close to that.

Anyway, be careful with your son around. You should know better than to teach him that kind of stuff, he'll learn about that from the kids in school soon enough. (if he does not already know)

Rob

[relferink]

DW,

I started posting but got interrupted so did not see your post till mine came up. Sounds like the same procedure but he was probably more honest about the reasons, a closet pyromaniac need to get his or her kicks somewhere and as long as you carry enough insurance why not in the shop

[tomo]

(Message edited by Tomo on March 01, 2006)

[tomo]

A year or so ago I was repairing a handbag. The repair involved glueing a patch inside the bag then sewing the patch. I finished sewing the bag and went to answer the phone or something, when I came back I singed the ends of the thread to tidy the work up.

The built up of fumes in the bag ignited with a sudden pop. There was no damage done but my eyebrows had to go and change their pants...

A good lesson

More power to y'awl

T.

[jenny_fleishman]

Rob,

Not sure what you mean by a grounded outlet vs. a connector plug...can you describe?

As for the fumes going under the table, I've constructed a 3 sided "box" with doors that can be closed on the 4th side when stuff is just sitting drying for a period of time (partially constructed with that trusty duct tape), so I think I'm OK on that front. I'd love to post pictures of my fume contraption if I can unclutter the room enough...I am becoming buried in unfinished shoe lasts, shoe books, insole patterns, plaster molds...ah, what I wouldn't give to have a basement...and I still don't have a pair of shoes to show for it!

Jenny

[relferink]

Jenny,

Hang in there; it has to get worse before it get better. What I meant is your plug needs to have the 3 prongs going into the wall plate, anything else will probably not be grounded properly. The box should keep the fumes in check, sounds like you are all set there.

Rob

[dmcharg]

All,
When using contact cement I usually put on 1 coat, let it dry; then another coat, paying attention to any areas that look dryer. Let that dry right off, even overnight (actually seem to have had better success doing that), and then putting an old bar heater on the floor facing away from me, and holding the work ,eg. shoe sole and rubber tread, over the top in front of the heater until the glue starts to fizz (tiny bubbles). Make sure that the shoe's upper is in line with the sole so that none of the heater's glow gets on it. The rubber tread I hold with pliers.
Once the point of 'fizz' is reached, then carefully put the two components together as there is no second chance, except tearing it off, getting rid of the glue (takes ages) and starting again.
I also make sure that, in the case of a leather sole, that the heater's glow is ONLY on the area with the glue, as a safe guard for the leather. Never had a problem with this method though.
Hope it's a help.
Cheers
Duncan

[Sharon Raymond]

Greetings, I recently saw a Mexican (with subtitles)documentary, "Bailar para Vivir", in which the narrator turned out to be an old shoemaker - his steps in constructing a dance shoe were shown intermittingly throughout the movie. At one point he does ignite his cement! There's a lot of dance for a little bit of shoemaking, but some of you might enjoy it. Best wishes, Sharon

[shoestring]

A measuring question.If the foot measures at 11 1/2 and the last measure the same is that a correct measurement or should the last be slightly longer?

Ed

[dw]

Ed,

First, it's not the length of the foot that determines the proper size last...it's the length of the "shank"--from back of heel to the medial ball joint. Remember, some people have long toes, some have short toes. Two different customers that both measure 11 1/2" can, and often will, be fit in different sized lasts...and better served for having done that.

Second, most authorities say the last should be two full sizes (two-thirds of an inch) longer than the foot for a wide round toe. This is sometimes referred to as the "rule of thumb" because the width of a man's thumb is roughly equal to two full sizes.

Third, the best source ...the best authority there is...for this whole inquiry is Sabbage's Sectionizer. As far as I'm concerned this is the "bible" or at least the sacred primer for fitting the foot. You can find a pretty faithful reproduction of Sabbage's Sectionizer here on the Forum in its own topic under "Techniques, Crans and Suppositions." Or you can find a very precise reproduction in the Golding book that can be downloaded from the main HCC website.

Yes, it may seem complicated at first; yes, it may seem a bit arcane. But study it, learn it, and understand it and you'll never again wonder what size last to match up with a foot.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[shoestring]

DW,

Thanks for that insight,I will look and study those references mentioned.

Ed

[jenny_fleishman]

Response to question re why remake my lasts.

Rob, changes I'm planning to make to my lasts:

Narrow the toe box along the lateral side (too loose).

Refine the shape of the toe box so it doesn't look so much like a clown shoe

Lessen the curve down to the feather line around the heel area...I found that I couldn't get a smooth transition from the upper to the underside of the insole.

Remove the ankle bone bulges and narrow the topline area of the last.(Talk about learning from experience! I truly didn't understand why that was done. Figured leaving the ankle bones would help determine how high to make the quarters. Found out it also makes the topline really loose . I know someone here warned me, but sometimes you just have to see it for yourself!)

Possibly build up the top of the instep just above the vamp point (I suspect I've just misused "instep"--and who knows what else!).

Angle the treadline on the bottom of the last slightly differently. Don't think it quite matches my foot, although it's pretty close.

I AM finding that it is very time consuming to remake the lasts. But I'm hoping to get a pair almost perfect, so I can make duplicates from the same mold and just change the shape of the toe box for different shoes. I'm experimenting with different methods of moldmaking, and different materials. I'm on plan C or D now, can't remember which When I get a technique I'm satisfied with, I'll post some pictures. (I'll be out of town for a 4-day weekend, so that'll delay things a little.)

Jenny

[relferink]

Jenny,
Don't take my comments here the wrong way but here's how I would tackle the points you list to make new lasts. Making a set of lasts is a lot of work and should only be done if no other option is available.

• To narrow the last and re-shape the toe box I would grind – rasp and sand it off. Even with a new last making the last to the exact shape you want without having to grind – rasp it of anyway.
• Lessening the curve on the feather line, how will you do that in your new last if it's based on a mold of your foot it will be curved the same way. You could fill in the curvature but why not do it on your existing last or you could add an insert that will become part of the shoe. I know you were hesitant about doing this earlier but it still has my vote. In the fitting shoe pictures you can more or less see what I mean by the insert, of course you don't see the uneven bottom on the last but trust me, it's not suitable to make a shoe on since its to round and uneven.
• Narrowing the flanks of the last; just grinding / rasping them down will do. You will probably have to add to the instep, check your measurements here. When making a new last you will still have to modify the mold in a similar way compared to adjusting the existing last. You may run into the piece of wood that's in your last when you take it down but so what? I would also make it into a regular low last. Cut off the top and re-position your screw.
• Angeling the tread line can be done by adding and removing to the existing last or on an insert if you choose to go that way.

What methods and materials for mold making are you experimenting with?

Just my . Definitely not the only way to do it but I put it out here since that's what I would do and it works for me. Make sure you remember that there is nothing wrong with being stubborn and doing it your own way. It's a great way to learn as long as you don't mind the “told you so” commends after.

Good luck with plan C. Your getting there and leaning along the way. Have a great long and relaxing weekend. I'm sure you deserved it.

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

Rob, I think I made a boo-boo on Plan C, and have already formulated Plan D. However, because of my long weekend coming up, I probably won't get to try it until next week.

One reason I want to remake the lasts is it seems like a real task to leather a last and really make it blend into the last. I know it can be done, and everyone here does it, but I plan to do it only as a very last resort (which I may be visiting sooner than I planned ).

I also want to remake the lasts to put a ferrule in so I can use a last stand. No way to do it on my current lasts.

Will post details on materials, etc., after I get to plan X, Y, or Z, and everthing works!

Jenny

[shoestring]

Question,
What type of shoe last is it that has a feather line longer on the outside and shorter on the inside? When placing the welt those are the stoping points? The heel rand does it extend to the ending of the welt or is it placed only around the heel seat, and the waist is just drafted close to the shank area? This last was made by "Auburn Lasting Co."

Ed

[dw]

Ed,

For what it is worth...at one time lasts didn't have featherlines at all...and I'm not talking way, way back either. Just because a last has or does not have a featherline doesn't dictate where you cut your start or end your welt--that's "maker's choice."

Typically, cowboy boot lasts are made such that the featherline disappears in the shank area...and, yes, the featherline is a little longer on the lateral side than on the medial. And yes, again, that can be where the welt ends, then the shank area is pegged.

Typically too, and not necessarily limited to cowboy lasts, if there is to be a heel rand it is placed around the heel only. But even with a last such as you describe, it is very possible to inseam/welt all around the shoe...again, you choose.

The featherline is useful to determine the proper width of the insole in the forepart and heel area--where the foot touches the ground in full contact. And it is generally considered congruent with the footprint if one has been obtained. But the last...and, by extention, the geography of the last...is just a tool--you make of it what you will.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul_k]

DW,

I like the way you frame the choice, by pointing out how the featherline is generally congruent with the footprint. I've liked my results since I got a pedograph and have been using it that way.

I have another foot to fit which has 'alot of foot' on the lateral side. That's where the mass of his foot is, and the base of his fifth is Prominent, yet he doesn't seem to run his other boots over. And it seems like I see alot of feet like that.

SO I'm choosing, in his case, to build his last with a featherline just as Ed describes the Auburn Last he's asking about. And then bringing the welt back to the heel line on the lateral side only. His arch is strong and I'll peg it under there for a clean fit. I'm thinking the shank should be placed a touch to the lateral side too. Do you agree with my thinking?

PK

[dw]

Paul,

I see a lot of feet like that too. I don't welt them to the heel except on low heels and then I peg the medial arch as you suggested. But on higher heel boots--one and a quarter to two and a quarter inches--I generally welt back to just behind the ball on both sides...pretty much to the end of the featherline...and peg the shank, both sides.

I don't see a thing wrong with your plan, however. Just be sure to build up to accommodate the more pronounced lateral bulge--this will help you control the short and long heel parameters, as well.

As for the shank, I always run mine right down the middle of the insole. Of course, I trim the shank area of my insole such that it is no wider than the widest part of the heel seat...until it absolutely must widen into the ball area. So that the centerline of the shank area and the centerline of the last are pretty much the same line...but the upshot is that the shank always does seem to favour the lateral side, at least if you look at it right.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[paul_k]

DW,

"...this will help you control the short and long heel parameters, as well."

What do you mean by this? I do build the last out to the edge of the footprint here and it sems to give good support under the foot at this point.

But how does it relate to the short and long heel parameters?

PK

[shoestring]

DW,
Thanks for the insight and thanks for mentioning "it's the makers choice"therefore I will swing with a full welt and try one from the lateral to the medial and peg the shank area.Now I will not put a lot of worry on that last.

Paul,
you brought out a good point about running over the lateral side of a shoe.During my repair days my mentor would place leather skivings at side of the 5th toe between the insole and sole than place another on the area of the heel.He would call them a "Dutchman" and it would level up the gaite of the warer.I read some where that it's cause when the ankle bone does not fit correctly in the socket connected to the foot.And the body weight causes the shift. Any ways that is a good question brought up.

Ed