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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:48 pm
by dw
Thanks to both of you. I don't have much call for it but once in a while someone wants it..

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:44 pm
by artzend
Georgene,

Thanks for that heads-up about Freed's pointe shoe video. I worked for Freeds when I left college at Cordwainers, just around the corner.

I was pattern cutter for the factory making theatrical and dance shoes with the pointe shoe section sort of keeping to itself.

I had to grade the pointe shoe patterns as they had all be made by different people using different methods and were all different. Patterns were really difficult as the curve for tensioning the upper to the last is the opposite of conventional shoes, and the mean forme curves downwards.

I had only left college about 4 months previously (before my year course had finished) and knew nothing of pointe shoes, so had to learn a lot in a hurry. I got it done though.

Freeds made the pointe shoes for the movie "The Red Shoes" a long time ago.

Tim

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:05 pm
by headelf
I actually have a run of pointe shoe lasts that I acquired along the journey of becoming a shoemaker. Making a pointe shoe, just to say I have, is on my eventual "to do" list. So, if anyone can elaborate on how they are made, I'd love to soak up the knowledge. Most of the film clips on the subject from manufacturers are a quick blur. There are no left or rights on pointe shoes so the same last is used for both feet and a pair is made at the last minute before boxing by mating up the two shoes out of many that most look like a pair.

Regards,
Georgene

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:43 pm
by shoestring
Lance,
Thanks for your insite and the picture was a big help.

Paul,
Thank you also for sharing about what you discovered in that area.
Al,
Out sole leather would seem to hold up a bit longer.
Again thanks all.

Ed

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:09 pm
by mmboots
I would like to get some input on bottom finishing.I have for a long time dye and burnished the soles on my boots with just one color. However I really like the look of two tone soles. So my problem is that I can't get the front half of the sole to finish out making it just a natrual leather look.

I start by sanding the sole with a naumkeg using a very fine grit sand paper. then using a disk inside out I burnish the sole and then use a bone to finish. I then dye the shank area and then move to the front part of the sole. I've used neutral polish and neutral burnish wax and even tried parowax. This is all done my hand and using heated hand irons. I never can get a nice natrual look there is always dark area on the leather which makes it just look bad.

In any help that anyone can offer would be great.

Mike

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:36 pm
by relferink
Mike,

I think the naumkeg is suspect for your uneven finish. It takes the grain off unevenly and than the polish and wax gets absorbed unevenly. Try in stead of the naumkeg scraping the sole with glass, than a very fine grid sandpaper by hand. I think your soles will improve.

Just my Image

Rob

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:25 pm
by mmboots
Rob,

Thanks for your feed back. As far as the glass goes. What kind of glass do you use? I've heard of using glass but have never tried it. should the edge be sharp? I'm just finishing a boot now which I will try this on. Thanks again.

Mike

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:15 pm
by relferink
Mike,

Regular window glass works best, if you have a local hardware store / glass dealer ask them if you can get some pieces out of their discard box.
It does get dull so you can re-break or get an other piece.
I was taught not to use a glass cutter to break the glass, something about the edge being not as sharp but I have not tried it with a glass cutter so I don't know it that's true or just a tale.
Good luck and be careful wit the sharp glass.

Rob

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:57 pm
by mmboots
Rob,

Thanks for the help I started working with it today. A couple of questions.

Do you use the glass on the sole while it's wet or dry? Then do you wax on a dry sole?

Thanks again for the help.

Mike

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:57 am
by relferink
Mike,

Scrape the sole when it's still a little damp. Do it after you build your heel and you finished your edges, that keeps stains from getting onto the sole. re-moisten if needed, scrape and finish.
Fiebing makes a light colored leather stain that works very nicely. Clear polish works as well but I find that to work best on a nearly dry sole. Make sure you apply it generously but don't let it "puddle". Give it some time to get absorbed by the leather, if needed add another coat and shine up.

Good luck, snap a picture of the result.

Rob

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:45 am
by dw
I am looking for high quality men's combination toplifts--the leather toplift with the rubber plug.

I know that the combination toplifts are available but I want one that I can be both proud to put on a shoe but which will also wear well.

I am halos looking for the brass nails or "rivets" that we see used on both the heel and sometimes the sole of these top shelf European shoes. I like that look (in moderation)

Anyone got any ideas/sources?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:45 am
by romango
I got these at Oregon Leather in Eugene. I bought all they had and now I'm all out. I'll ask them where they came from , next time I'm there. Or you could check with the Portland store. But they were all dusty on the shelf so I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't get them any more.

They also have that annoying Made in Italy stamp. I swear, I get the same reaction every time someone looks at my shoes. "Hey, it says Made in Italy".
6681.jpg

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:54 am
by dw
Rick,

Thanks for your reply. I called McPheresons's (parent company of Oregon Leather) in Seattle yesterday, and they told me they had a poor quality toplift and a fair quality toplift. Neither of which thrilled me.

They can order from Goetz, however, which appears to have some good quality lifts, but it will take a while.

If I had a big enough order of tools and other items...


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:00 am
by romango
Well, I am interested in a couple super small punches and top lifts (now that you mention it).

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:01 am
by das
DW,

Brass nails: I used D. B. Gurney (Whitman, MA) 5/8 "extra iron" clinch tacks in brass for the top-piece "pins". After driving, it's good to buff/sand the surface to get a nice clean brass "dot" effect.

I got a pile of un-marked and good-wearing 2-pc. leather/rubber combo top-pieces from Bob Galvin years ago I'm still using. He bought his findings from Frankfort Leather in Philadelphia. You might give them a try.

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:54 pm
by rocketman
A question for the Chemists among us. What clear topcoat, (Lacquer, teak oil, polyurethane,...) will an adhesive such as Barge stick the most permanently to? This is going on stained wood. I have tested the three listed and have had results in this order. Best was the Teak oil, then poly, then lacquer but all three failed a light pull test. I expected the lacquer to fail but the poly surprised me. Would enamel work? Just looking for more options. I normally bond to wood bare (no finish not no clothes) but I want to be able to finish a shoe blank before designing the upper and I would rather not have to sand off the area completely to bond unless there are no other options.
All advise is appreciated.
Thanks, Lyle

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:30 am
by romango
Glue normally works by getting in the pores of the surface. Any topcoat will fill up these pores. Sanding regenerates a rough surface for the gle to grab on to.

I assume you are leathering out. I suggest lacquer finish, sand lightly, leather out and use small nails to reinforce.

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:50 pm
by erickgeer
Al,

Many, many questions from my students about currying! Number one on the list of the moment is "why fish or cod oil? Can we use other types of oil?"

Are you using regular alcohol dye or an oil dye. We are experimenting with different application methods (thanks Larry!) to reduce streaking with varying results.

Anxiously awaiting a response.

Erick

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:45 am
by das
Erick,

Oh, where is whatshisname, the guy who used to occasionally post here on historical tanning-chemistry? I'm a bit out of my depth, but here goes:

As I understand it, cod (liver) oil, and certain marine mammal oils now banned, e.g. whale-oil, have the unique property for currying that they readily oxidize into a basic fatty-acid jelly in the leather, sheathing each fiber of the skin, cross-linking and bonding on the molecular level, and filling the intercesses in a way simply no other oils will. Cod-oil was/is used to produce oil-dressed leathers (e.g. buff, chamois, etc.), not "tanned" at all (no tannins), but purely converted into leather by admission and saturation of oxidizing oil (alone). Currying already tanned leathers for uppers, in this instance, was an early form of what we might call today "combination tannage"--the leather was tanned (with tannin), then oil-dressed (with cod-oil) in addition to tanning--not unlike the Medieval/Moorish "Cordwain" leather was a combination of alum-tawed and then veg-tanning, or the modern examples of "semi-chrome" and chrome-veg "re-tan".

Neats foot oil (rendered from cattle hooves, etc.) is a fine oil, too, but it will not oxidize, so it's fugitive and bleeds out. Vegetable oils, like Rape-seed oil, are extensively used for currying in the UK these days because of their relative cheapness/availability, but these go rancid over time and wash right out when you dip the leather in water. Rape-seed oil, I've been told by a retired UK currier defending its use, "has the same atomic weight as cod-oil", but owing to the draw-backs I just mentioned, I don't care for it. He also claimed that cod-oil is too expensive to use now, and is "banned" (?!) in the UK for currying.

Back in the 1970s I experimented with fresh genuine whale-oil. It behaved okay, but turned very dark and smelled foul in the leather when it oxidized. Cod-oil in the leather actually creates a strong "sweet" smell over time--not fishy. In fact, that wonderful "leather" smell is usually a combination of oak-bark (which simply smells like sour beer vomit--ever visited a pit tannery?), and cod-oil (after the fishy smell has turned sweet). I read in one of the ancient tomes that the French often used whale oil for currying historically, but the English preferred cod, because the whale-oil smelled bad. Voila! History proved itself through experimental archaeology Image

Also, cod-oil was often used in conjunction, or mixed with other substances for currying, i.e. tallow (rendered and filtered mutton-kidney fat, the hardest fat) and "degras" ("sheep's wool grease"=lanolin), so perhaps cod-oil simply worked best combined with these other fats and waxes too?

I guess the short shoemaker's answer (versus the long tanning-chemist's answer) is: cod-oil has remained the currying oil of choice for centuries, even when many other oils, now no longer available to us were readily available, because it achieved the desired results better than the others. It's good to question, and I admire your students' interest here, but it's also, alas, just one of those things... "that's the way it's always been done...", which believe me sounds like dumb old codgers clinging blindly to tradition. As a wild young Turk (once) myself, I was not satisfied with answers like: "just because... it's always been like that"; however, experiment and research as I could, it just seems that cod was, and remains, the best oil for this job.

On the grain: yes, just using alcohol-based Fiebing's/Kelly's dyes--Tandy's house-brand is a weaker-strength dye, and smells like it's based on common isopropyl rubbing alcohol, thus easy to thin, and easier to control the color intensity of moreso than the "professional" dyes.

On the flesh: we're usually imitating the venerable old 17thc.-19thc. "waxed-calf" AKA "French calf", so it's black or black, and occasionally black too. For this a soap-based black smutting is still the fiber-filling-coloring of choice--fine powdered carbon dust ("lampblack"=purposefully, industrially-produced, fine soot from oil fires collected on metal sheets, then shaken loose and collected). Today, try printer toner or p-copier toner for blacking? Castille [sp?] soap I found works best for the suspension--mix with water and lampblack, to taste, into a stiff paste the consistency of margarine, and apply with a stiff bristle scrub-brush in circular motions until the flesh it completely loaded. When dry it has this tenacity of the soap-scum on your bathroom fixtures, IOW, nigh impossible to get off. But wet the leather, and you get blacking all over everything, so be careful. The historical waxed-calf behaved the same way--blacking got all over everything. "Size", or "sizing" was painted over the "smutting" in an attempt to fix it and give a cleaner top-coat, and "gum dragon" (gum tragacanthe) or thin flour-paste was the choice there; however, both of these agents are also water soluble, so the problem of the blacking was, "an incurable subject".

The best, "Grade A", blue-ribbon waxed-calf was last produced by J. T. Scott & Sons, Carlisle (UK). They supplied Maxwell's, Peal's, and all the top West End bootmakers. They had one old gent who would come in from his retirement periodically and make up a batch as late as the 1970s. It had to be completely hand-curried, and as he explained to me in a letter (he was coaching me and vetting my attempts to make waxed-calf), none of the young people then coming into the trade would have anything to do with it, because it was such a messy back-breaking job.

I cut my eye-teeth on J. T. Scott waxed-calf, and have tucked away a few matched pairs of butts for a rainy day. BTW, Maxwell's still had a pile of this in the cellar in 2000, but they guarded it like gold. Maybe one of you West-enders could pry it out of them? This leather bleeds blacking all over you when wetted, but burnished back down with a little thin paste, when dry, it looks like patent leather. Just the "joy" of waxed-calf, and a very vivid reminder why men's-men and ladies'-men were separate branches of our trade, especially later 1600s to later 1800s, when most men's work was made from waxed-calf, and women's fine textiles--cleanliness!

Get a-hold of a copy of Hippolyte Dusauce [sp?] 'Leather Tanning and Currying' and try following the progressive steps for making waxed-calf, if you want some good old fashioned "dirty" fun in class doing experimental archaeology on currying.

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:42 am
by erickgeer
Al,

Thank you- especially for expounding the waxed flesh. It's a waaay better explanation and description than I've been using.

One of my students is in the fiber department and is considering trying mixing up pigment powders.

We're still waiting on our "real" cod oil- until we get that, I've been trying out drug store stuff just to get the ball rolling a bit.

Erick

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:30 pm
by mmboots
All,

A few weeks ago I asked for some ideas on finishing the bootoms of my boots as I was having some problems getting the finish to come out the way I wanted it to. Rob suggest that I use glass to scrape and finish the sole. So I tried the glass and then used sand paper starting with 220 and finishing with 800. So here are some photos.
6893.jpg
6894.jpg
6895.jpg
6896.jpg


I still didn't get a smooth color finish on the front half of the sole. Ideas anyone. Thanks

Mike

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:37 pm
by dw
Mike,

Sorry, no help on your bottom finishing technique...maybe less stain?

What's that inseaming jack?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:45 pm
by mmboots
DW,

Thanks I was thinking I needed more stain. I used just one coat of pro dye in saddle tan made by fiebings. The inseaming jack is one that I designed when I was working for the Dept. of Correction and had the inmates build for me. They made it out of 1/4 inch steel and stainless steel with brass. Works pretty good.

Mike

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:58 pm
by mack
Mike,
I want to tell you how I use the glass and sandpaper.I dont know how it will work on the kind of leather you are using but it might be worth a try.I have used it on different leathers and it seems to work
First,make sure the piece of glass you use is clean and sharp,I use a metal scraper myself but thats another story. Gently scrape the sole feeling which way the glass runs best, do not dig too deep try and get an even layer removed.
Do not wet the leather,use only fine sandpaper and rub in a circular motion to get all marks out ,this can take awhile and you may need to use the glass again if there are some marks remaining,then using the sandpaper again.
If you are doing a coloured waist as in your picture you need to glass and sand the complete sole before you ink the waist.
When your ready to do the forepart take a clean soft cloth and apply a light tan polish or cream evenly with the cloth ( I use Kiwi ) You need to experiment here as different polishes will give a variation of colour.It might look darker and patchy at first but leave it a while and it will absorb evenly, add another layer let it dry and buff with a brush or cloth.
I have a few other methods for finishes but try this and see if it gets a decent result.I'm afraid hand finishing is a very labour intensive process so plenty of elbow grease when sanding that sole.Hope this is of some use.
Regards Mack.

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:01 pm
by dw
Mike,

I'm still working on my bottom finish...so take this with a grain of salt....but I think dye is the wrong way to go. I'd use some meltonian creme in a light brown. Let it dry good, then rub it out with a little paste floor wax to get rid of the streaking.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC