Bottoming techniques

[homeboy]

Waited at least 24 hours before trimming with knife. Proceeded to finish edge with sandpaper. No debonding yet......

14317.jpg

[homeboy]

Then I turned my attention on the seat. Roughed up the seat with my sandpaper, all purpose glue on both the seat and "tempered" split lift, waited for 1 hour, warmed seat with hot-air gun, then bonded split lift. No problems.....

14319.jpg

[homeboy]

First full lift was bonded as the split lift.....with all purpose because I had some "rubber" to bond to. By the way, the last in the boot has a metal shank. Those are brass oval head soling tacks in the shank. 5 1/2 brass clinching nails in the split lift.

Here's the bonded first full lift and second lift sitting there ready to go on.

14321.jpg

[homeboy]

Now here's where the first problem arises. Since I have leather to leather to bond to now, I thought I would give Hirshkleber a try. Well, it was a pain in the backside. I finally got it down with metal and wood pegs after it dried out a bit, but surely I'm missing something here. What's the technique on HK?

14323.jpg

(Message edited by homeboy on January 25, 2012)

[artzend]

Jake

With contact adhesive, I don't know the individual brands you mention, but the one hour thing should only be a guide. The glue must dry completely, no wet areas. You can even leave it a lot longer, 24 hours or more and the re activating heat will get it ready to adhere.

Tim

[jon_g]

Jake,

I can't tell but your lift looks dry. I prep my lifts by roughing up the flesh side and then soaking them, and then wrap in newspaper or put them into a plastic bag.

When I'm ready for a lift, spread paste onto the flesh side (it looks like you have a bit too much there) and place my lift onto the heel area. Then drive a nail into the center and bend it over, this is to hold it temporarily. I then roughly cut off the excess. The next step is to peg all around the heel, pretty close to the edge, and across the front of the heel too. My pegs are less than a cm apart. Once that is done I trim the edges properly, as close as possible to the finished shape, and then carve off the bottom to flatten it (remove the temporary nail first). Once all the lifts are on finish the heels with a rasp and glass. I also hammer the edges with the "claw" side of my hammer.

I hope that seems clear and complete to you. I'll proof read it tomorrow in case I left something out.

[homeboy]

Hey Tim,

Nice of you to help. I appreciate it!

Jon,

Me understands completely Partner! You were clear as a bell. But I assure you those lifts are "tempered". Those were just pulled out of a plastic bag. I could easily bend them. They're just almost their original color.

I think you are right about the amount of Hirshkleber.....I had too much and maybe too thin (added a tad of water). Will follow your technique on future lifts (I just stopped and placed my lifts back in the bag).

Thanks once again!

[paul]

I'm wondering about how many times one has to keep coming back to set the gaps at the edges of the layers of leather as the HK dries. It seems like the instruction is to work the HK wet, or just on one side. And then it's suggested to work the leather tempered? I guess I'd need to see it.

As to pegging close to the edges, which would be fine for shoe heel bases, it would become much more problematic with a CB heel base with whatever taper one had in mind.

I sure don't mean to be a doubter, these are just some of my thoughts on the HK subject.
Paul

[homeboy]

Paul,

I'm glad you "chimmed" in here!

I wasn't going to whine, but you're comment on the difference between shoe and cowboy heels is right on the mark, IMHO.

Having said that, I still think it's do-able. Because of the high shank, thicker lifts (most of the time), and not really knowing the final taper of the heel......it's just a little more "trickier".

If you can master this technique, you can eliminate the cement line and decrease your exposure to all purpose.

Bottom line....it's worth a try to me.

[homeboy]

Jon,

Your technique was right on the mark! Had no problems. Thanks so much for the help!

[jon_g]

That's great Jake, I'm glad that was helpful.

[tjburr]

Well, I have not had much time to work on my pegged shoes; my full time job has been very busy lately.

I did get to the part of looking at finishing the edges of the soles and had several questions. The below picture will hopefully help illustrate what I want to ask.

For best looks on a shoe...
is option 1 or option 2 correct, and
if option 1 is correct, is option A or option B correct

Is the answer different for a boot?

I know this sounds sort of like an eye test, but I thought it would be easier to illustrate this way than try to describe.

14422.jpg

Thanks, have a good day!
Terry

[dw]

Terry,m

1 & A...always. Anything else is not only structurally unsound but unnatural.



Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[tjburr]

DW,

Thanks for the quick response.

Terry

[chuck_deats]

Opinion: Careful with 1 & A around the toe spring. Might want to shade toward 1 & B in that area, particularly for thicker soles.
Chuck

[dw]

Chuck makes a good point...you don't want to trim your outsoles to flare (unless you're using crepe, and then only slightly).

That said, crepe is a good example to help us visualize what goes on. Crepe is a thick sole, and if you trim crepe such that it does not flare slightly, it will collapse at the edge and wear much faster that otherwise. I've seen cloud crepe actually buckle under because the edge was not flared.

On the other hand, if you flatten the outsole, as in your example #2, you are forcing the outsole into an unnatural position--one that will either cause the outsole to wear away faster along the edge, or which will, eventually, actually, force the welt/edge back into the #1 configuration during wear...probably some of both.

Functionally, this means that if you trim as in #2 and "b", wearing the shoes will force the sole into a #1 and "a" configuration anyway...but but not before the edge of the outsole is abraded significantly. The outsole is supposed to wear in the middle, where the foot and the weight of the body is concentrated, not along the edges. The good news is that when wear is concentrated in the middle, it protects the outseam.

If you trim as in #1 and "b", the welt will be unsupported and the structure of the edge itself will breakdown. And if you trim a welted shoe as in #2 and "b", additional stress is placed on the inseam simply because the welt is being pulled into an unnatural position...on that stresses the inseaming threads.

IMNSHO, the outsole should always be mounted so that it naturally follows the bottom radius of the last...as does the insole, as does the welt. I will beat and burnish the outsole up and closer to the vamp rather than press it flat after I have closed the channel.

And the edge should always be trimmed perpendicular to that plane/surface.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[tjburr]

Chuck/DW thanks for the continued discussion. I understand the effects of the thicker sole

Terry

[guerreiro]

Good day to all,

After some trouble finding the correct area I'll finnally post my questions.
I'm making a pair of boots to my father and although I attatched a leather sole to them I had also attatched a rubber sole for durability (since they are working boots). The thing is that I'd like to sew the rubber to the sole and welt. I've a special awl to sew rubber but the stupid thing is really thick leaving very big nasty holes and I can't seam to find any smaller ones.
Finnaly tired of almost messing up the allready done job I decided to glue (with contact) and pegged it all around with very small, square section, nails, that in Portuguese we call "semilha".
Does anyone has any sugestions on how to sew rubber by hand and do a acceptable job.

Thank you all

Miguel Guerreiro

[dw]

Next time over two, under two, over two....might be able to cover the whole shank.

15184.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]

[paul]

I like it!

[kemosabi]

Interesting...Looks like the shank is covered in poly. Is that correct?

Thx,
-Nat

[dw]

Nat,

The shank itself is covered in packing tape to protect it from sweat or any kind of moisture (I've seen too many broken & rusted out shanks).

The "plaiting" (braid work) is the tag ends of a 12 foot inseaming thread. It's not historically correct or rigourous...just me playing with ideas.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]

[kemosabi]

Ahh, packing tape. got it.
Figured it was used to prevent rust, but didn't want to assume anything.

Braiding is a nice touch too.

(Message edited by Kemosabi on February 15, 2013)

[dw]

Recently I was asked to do a photo essay on the heel seat stitch. This stitch is described in some detail in Hasluck, but for some reason people have a hard time comprehending his instructions--I did as well. I finally figured it out although some parts may be a little idiosyncratic.

What we are looking for, when finished, is something like this:

DSCF1567.JPG

To get there we need to channel the insole something like this, with a channel cut around the heel of the insole. I usually cut this as an extension of the inside channel that runs around the rest of the insole. This channel can also be cut after the shoe has been lasted and the quarters trimmed in the heel seat area.

DSCF1804.JPG

Then we last and inseam as usual, drawing the threads to the inside of the holdfast and tying a knot. If the heel seat channel has not been cut previously now is the time to do it.

DSCF2167.JPG

At this point the threads must be separated--one will be the "upper" thread and the other will be the "lower" although they will be constantly switching places and designations as we stitch around the heel.

Then using an an inseaming awl that has an extreme curve to it--I call them "tiger claws" (a whimsey) and you have to make them or alter an existing inseaming awl....

DSCF2502.JPG

...we need to make a "tunnel" stitch from deep in the bottom of the channel, through the substance of the insole, to emerge in the surface of the upper where it is turned over the insole. I usually make this hole close to the last welt stitch but somewhat inset. [the photos here are not good quality and the leather is too wet and there is Hirschkleber everywhere but these are the only photos I have]

DSCF2668new.jpg

There's more coming...

[romango]

Awsome! Thanks DW.