The Crispin Colloquy

DW,
When I was in the Netherlands many years back, I saw where the counter was exposed, attached to the outside of the fitter, no covering.

I know hoisting is your goal, and I think I understand many shoe makers generaly don't, so I see the difference. But this might get a counter on a fitter. Still thinkin' with my finges.

(I'd better get off this thing and back to the bench.)

Paul

That's what I was taught in The Netherlands as well.

Paul, Rick,

Both are great ideas..and I had mulled over something similar in both cases....but for me at least--still obsessing with lasts and proper fit--the way the shoe fits on the last and where it lays on the cone is just as important as any other factor. The outside stiffener ignores the fact that the stiffener takes up room inside the shoe and will affect the way the shoe lasts over the cone. Whe4n I have all these other issues delat with and I am confident of my lasts and my patterns, it will probably be my go-to choice.

I came up with a notion this morning that made me feel kind of silly. What I am going to do on the next fitter's model is simply hot glue the preformed stiffener to the bottom of the insole and last without any cement or glue. Then when the last is pulled I will stick a finger laden with Hirschkleber down in-between the heel stiffener and the shoe. The only reason for gluing it anyway is so that the heel of the foot won't push the stiffener out of place when it is put on.

What do you think?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

You could probably put some Hirschkleber on the outside of the preformed, hot glued stiffener prior to pulling the leather. If a little seeps out at the edges, I doubt it will stick to the polyethylene anyway.

On a similar note. I made 3 test shoes recently, tweaking the pattern until it lay perfectly on the last. Once the lining was attached, on the real upper, it was totally too small! The old orange peel got me. I wet lasted it and managed to get enough stretch to make it work but I sure learned that the perfect fitters model would need a liner if you want it to validate your pattern in addition to checking the fit.

When I don't want the laces to leave marks on the upper, I use some cheater strips with the same eyelet spacing so that any marks get left on the strips. Didn't plan this photo to explain this but you get the idea. I thought I learned this from you DW?
Regards,
Georgene

Georgene,

You did learn that from me...although where I got the idea, I don't know. I haven't given up on the idea I just was looking for something a little more elegant...where I could control how the facings themselves lay--open or completely closed (I'm leaning that way if it is at all possible).


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Well I like that little trick!
PK

DW, Georgene,

Concerning your methods of securing the lacings during lasting of the shoe, I will repost a hint I picked up on this Forum several years ago from either Dan Freeman or Al Saguto. The technique one of them used was to make the lining somewhat wider in the area between the laces and to sew the two sides together leaving an appropriate gap between the two sides. This leaves a strong, stable seam/join and avoids the stretching of the lacings during lasting. It also avoids the lace impressions left on the upper. After the last is removed the seam is cut and the excess lining is trimmed like the lining is at the top of a boot. I have used this technique and like it.

Joe Hall

TJ,

It must have been Al...he told me that trick a couple of years ago too.

That's kind of what I was aiming at. But with the whole cut oxford you don't have the option to leave extra on the lining, unless you want to make a pieced lining. I'm not sure what I did wrong, if anything, but I sewed my facings direct to a crimped lining with no gap between the facings and cut the lining open only after I pulled the last. But the facing still opened up a bit.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Dear Fellow SHOE/Boot makers,
Yoiks!!!! I just went on this site for the first time in a couple of weeks as I am up to my hip boot tops in theatrical alligators !! and I wish I had time to carry on about SHOES but I don't even have time to READ all the stuff!! How do you all do it!?!?!?
Anyway, here's my experience of 35 or so years at the shoe game: (although, as I pointed out at the HCC I only make "pretend" shoes.)
If you want to make shoes, either court/pumps OR lace ups, you need a SHOE last in order to get a nice tight top line. This means a nicely curved back cone---from heel point to counter point, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY lose that big thick back cone and the straighness of it that you need for cowboy boots. The height of the back cone doesn't really matter. I have made a zillion kinds of boots and shoes on SHOE lasts----it's alot easier to pad them up than it is to try to grind down a "boot" last. When I have lasts made I use a shoe back cone but I get a nice high front cone so I can make boots on them as well.
As for the patternmaking process, relax with the formulas and numbers. Just get your MEAN, trace it off and GO for it! I know the one piece with the high vamp can be tricky and I'm not charging thousands of dollars for my shoes, but it can be done. It's a beautiful shoe---at least Dan's was gorgeous! but don't get too tortured about it until you've tried a couple of plain old lace up oxfords. Working with a low heel is very simple---as in men's shoes----just try tricks with ladies high heels!!! Also the 2 oxford styles have many names like gibson, blucher, etc. but the 2 REAL BASICS are vamp over quarter or quarter over vamp: the quarter over vamp being the most "adjustable". If you're after a good fit, start with your own foot and again, the most basic measurement in my trade is heel point to ball point on your foot and the last. Then see how the ball of the last matches up with your "joint"/ball measurement and pad it up, or not accordingly.
Well, that was pretty quick and dirty but I have miles to go before I sleep and I hope the above was helpful.
Rock On,
Sharlot

I have this problem that's been nagging me a while.On a pair Derby's I made now that they have been used a little I noticed that the vamp just below the high instep area in between the facings sort of pucker a bit like the tongue has slipped down slightly.It is mainly noticed when the shoe is not worn.Could this be caused by the fitting points,I drew up the pattern using the geometric design.Other than that the shoe fits like a glove,one other thing my tongue is not quit as high as some that's been posted it's about 10 mm shorter give or take a mm.

Someone has some idea how did they make this? I can't imagine, this is possible from a good leather

http://centipede.web.fc2.com/bjsugolini.html

That's a tricky one Marcell. A local shoemaking college used to do a shoe like that using really stretchy belly leather to pull the leather over the last and then cut the top out. Their shoes were not finished like this one though. They just cut the top off while it was on the last. The closing on this shoe is much better and it must have been difficult.

Tim

Totally cool shoe. It had to be cut like a circle. Then the top had to stretch a lot and the bottom where it meets the sole would have to be wiped in really carefully to eliminate all the extra fullnes and wrinkles. I wish there were some way to cut a boot top like that!

Lisa

I have had dreams/nightmares about this shoe. I saw Limmer's single seam shoe and wondered if a seamless shoe were possible. I see now that it IS possible, just very unlikely. I wonder if some custom tanning was involved.

If I'm not mistaken, somewhere in the historical records there is a boot that has no seam...might even be a pair. I feel certain I saw a photo of it in one of Junes Swann's books or maybe in one of those tomes (there must be five or six of them) from eastern Europe that Al was referencing at one point. As I recall the leg of a cow or goat was peeled off the animal, tanned, and used "as is" for the boot. Now that would be a nightmare--a screaming, cold sweat, trapped under the ice, nightmare.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Bruce,

do not have nightmares because of a pattern, which is technically not a real pattern at all. I made a short photo essay to show how to make it..

Actually I made a redundant movement: cut the top of the leather. That is not needed. What s really needed to wet the leather, and heat up with a lamp when you crimp it. I will try to make a shoe like this, just to as an experiment.

Fellers,

There is a "story" about a one-piece, un-seamed, boot made for a European king, 17thc(?) in one of the old books, made from a specifically skinned and tanned calf's leg, yes. Surviving ones??? I have seen some Lap/Finnish/Northern boots made from a reindeer leg skinned and tanned in a single piece, but nothing quite like the boots we're working with.

I did come across a pattern for a complex one-piece Wellington boot leg: vamp has a tongue, leg is seamed up the outside. As soon as I get the new shop settled, and get things running, I plan to try one in "scrap" leather--how's that for "cold sweat, trapped under the ice, nightmare"?

Happy Hogmany! Going to see if black-eyed peas go with haggis today. A wee dram of Lagavullin should make anything go down.

Marcell,

That's exactly how I make my test-fitter uppers for try-ons! I rough-cut the upper by eye, run up a back-seam on the machine however, then cut the throat open. Neat idea.

ENOUGH! This is worse than reading Frankenstein! If you keep it up, I'll be in therapy for the rest of my life! As it is, I didn't dare sleep last night, for fear of what dreams I'd have as a result of reading these terrible nightmares! Especially the black-eyed peas and haggis. I had a cold chill run down my spine even as I wrote it. Please, let the terror stop! I'm sensitive.

Bruce,

So... no haggis and black-eyed peas for you? Good, all the more left for me *Bwahahaha*

Al,

Don't you think substituting haggis for the ham hocks and Lagavulin for the okra will blunt the effect?

As a good Southern boy I'm sure you know...if you want good luck for the rest of the year you have to have Hoppin' John (or some variation) on New Years Day--ham hocks, black-eyed peas (should really be field peas), okra and low country rice. And don't forget a couple of hot, buttered, sweet potato biscuits!!

Oh, and you can still have the Lagavulin...just on the side!

Happy New Year!


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on January 01, 2008)

D.A.
The Carriage Museum of America in N.Y. has a one piece Postillion boot with a single seam up the back, one piece vamp and leg out of 8 to 10 oz leather. It was too dark for my pics to come out so I will have to make an apointment with the curator the next time I am up there. Now that should keep you up at nite.
Tom

Marcell,

Do you think you could do this with "good" leather? The piece you are demonstrating with looks like it has a pretty soft "hand."

And how would you handle the lining and the heel stiffener?

A glass with you...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I guess as a foreigner I don't understand the sarcasm between the lines.. But anyway it seems to turn to a good topic to talk about..

I don't think that it is possible from a really strong, thick leather - thatswhy I used this soft one. (but I never tried, so maybe I am wrong)

Lining is the same, than any other case: I make this "crimping", then remove the leather from the last, and put in the normal lining... and goes back to the last again.

One piece boot: yes it is possible, but a backseam is a must. Old hungarian boots are made like this. Only from one piece of leather. Acually sounds more comlicated, than in reality.