Seeking knowledge or survey

[skb]

Thank you all for your help with the branding and square footage - I think I can figure this out now!

Gwen

[dw]

Sometime ago, I got the idea that using the word "counter" to mean a "heel stiffener" was a misuse of the language/terminology. I respect and want to preserve the traditional lexicon of boot and shoemaking so I tried my best to drop "counter" from my vocabulary when I was referring to the heel stiffener.

It has been hard, because I was taught to refer to the heel stiffener as a counter, and I didn't even question it for some thirty years.

Now, as many of you know, I am converting Golding Volume I to pdf format so that it will be available to the public. I am about halfway through and currently dealing with the subject of generating heel stiffener patterns for shoes.

Well, guess what? Circa 1900, Golding states...and I quote:

"The general rule is now for the stiffeners, or counters as they are often called..."

(emphasis mine)

That said Golding never, in this section, at least, uses the word counter again. But at least I know that my usage and my teacher's usage was not just some sloppy misconstruction of the process.

Anyway, that's it and all about it...guess I can go back to being lazy once in a while...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[mac]

DW,
If it is incorrect to use the word "counter" then I have been using incorrect terminology for the last 10-12 years as a Pedorthist and for 5 years before that as a shoe fitter. I don't have the text handy anymore but I'm fairly sure that the Shoe Fitter's Handbook used by the American and Canadian Pedorthic associations uses "counter" If it is incorrect then at least we've been using incorrect terminology since Golding:P
Sean

[sharon_raymond]

Georgene! I am so excited, I just got some tiny spots and a cute little setter from Standard rivet that works very well, they're exactly what I was looking for. My daughter is making bracelets from my scrap leather, and these little studs will look terrific on them, I think. Thanks for taking the time to look at Zappo's, happy new year and thank you, Sharon

[marcell]

I have a question about pointe shoes. I made a lot of them - about 16-17 years ago.. Now I have a chance to deliver some to a ballet school, but I have some problem. I know all the steps of making, but I don't know how to make the final stich.. If someone know pointe shoe technology, knows what I mean. So: this machine is good for that?

http://img.vatera.hu/photos/89/ef/9e2_1_300.jpg

And I promise I will make some videos about the making process..

[sharon_raymond]

Greetings, Another question - I'm looking for suede for soling for dance shoes, about 3/16 inch thick. Any ideas where I might find this? thanks, Sharon

[paul]

Sharon,

I'd love to find some too! But it might come down to a matter of what you're really looking for.

I understand we can longer get chrome tanned soles. These were lightly sanded and made great dance soles. They were about 9-10 iron. But as I said I don't think they're available anymore.

Another choice might be a Pearl Apron Split. I think you might be able to get this in 7-8 ounce, which is a little lighter than you're looking for, (and fleshier being a split), but maybe a good second. Maybe a 5 oz. pearl split stitched onto to a 7 oz. veg leather sole.

I repeat tho, I'd like to get a few pair of the other for myself too, if anyone has a lead on them.

Paul

[erickgeer]

Al,

A few years ago at an AGM, we talked about oiling tooling leather with fish-oil to make it suitable as an upper leather. I was wondering if you might be persuaded to explain it a bit- particularly if there is a way to know when the oil has oxidized enough. Aside from variables in the leather quality to begin with- how good (or reliable) is this process?

I've got this idea in my head that some of my students would enjoy this as a project.

Thanks,

Erick

[romango]

Also, I wonder how tooling leather differs from crust leather.

[das]

Erick,

What a topic to open...I'll do my best.

First, veg-leather was the historical (only) choice for shoes (uppers, soles, etc.), and that for the uppers leather was "curried", IOW preserved via tanning/tannins, but had additional longevity because it was "oil dressed" on top of being just tanned. Probably the easiest book to find on currying compounds/formulas for various leathers is H.C. Standage, 'Leather Workers Manual", but other 19thc works on currying and tanning (including currying) are out there. One volume of Golding has these in too, I recall.

Tanned (veg) leather as we get it today, is mostly made for the "craft" market, or for generic leatherworking, and while it has usually been oiled a little for flexibility and a mellower hand, it's not properly curried for use as shoe uppers. So, yes, you need to do this yourself to achieve satisfactory results.

For stouter skins, for un-lined uppers (waxed calf, and russet kip-sides), say in the 4.5 to 5.5 oz. range, the currying usually consisted of impregnating ("stuffing"] the skins with various mixtures of: cod oil, tallow, and "degras" (some grade of lanolin), as well as other substances. The art of this, much less the tricks and secrets may be lost to the mists of time; however, in working with current veg-tanned side leathers, most of them are too dry as-is, and need at least some currying.

It's going to be a matter of experimentation, plain and simple. Dye the leather whatever color you want, but a considerably lighter shade than you want, as the currying will darken it. Veterinarian's grade cod-liver oil--as raw as you can get it (too refined and it takes too long to oxidize)--plus tallow ("Fancy Tallow Oil" from J.R. Baits & Lures is all I have used the past 18 years). For deepest, fullest penetration, wet the leather thoroughly with water, lay on a table, blot off any standing water, and paint on as much cod oil as you think it will accept and let it sit over night. As the water evaporates, the oil will flow into the fiber structure deeply and more evenly than if you'd painted it on dry leather. After all this dries, you can test the oiliness by pinching a cut edge between your thumbnail and index fingernail, and you should see a little evidence of oil issue out the edge--just a hint, not a dribble. Not sure? Repeat this process.

Lay the skins by, preferably in a warm room, attic, etc. Within a month or so the oil should have oxidized. If you end up with sticky, gummy droplets on the surface, you used too much oil, and these drips are difficult to remove, so err on the side of caution here.

Next step, dampen the skin again with a sponge, fold it grain to grain on a table, and "board" it to break the grain and loosen the fibers: roll this fold from end to end, then from side to side, by pressing down hard with a "board" (an old fashioned mason's wooden float works great, or just a length of 2x4). Finish the skin off by rubbing in the tallow by-hand on both the grain and the flesh. This imparts a nice waxy feel. Buff off the excess.

You can also experiment with the "degras" by melting some into the cod-oil--it's easy to add too much lanolin, so go easy. The above oiling followed by boarding and tallow is about all I do these days, and seems to convert most good veg side leathers into usable uppers leather.

If you add the oil to dry leather, you get dark spots and overly oily results.

Have fun and post photos of the currying party...your students will smell like fishmongers for a day or two after, and be slippery as greased pigs

[tmattimore]

Sharon and Paul
Back in 1989 when I opened my first shop it was across the street from a bowling alley. I used 7 oz pearl grey apron splits for 1/2 soles on about 100 pair of bowling shoes and it worked great, held up quite well.
tom

[dw]

I'll take a quick stab at this by sharing what I've learned so far (not that it's the last word mind you)

From what I've found out, crust is un-dyed upper leather...but chrome tanned. One of my regular suppliers suggested that if we could get Greg H. to bring in some of that lovely French Calf, unfinished, it would be equivalent to crust.

I have seen some really extraordinary finishes done with crust but it seems like the makers that use it need to employ about a dozen stains, dyes, and waxes...all in little tins or cups. I'm not ready for that yet, for sure, so for now I'm going to concentrate just good leathers antiqued.

BTW, here is a link to a really long list of top shelf makers...many of which we have on the forum but many of which we do not: http://tinyurl.com/24xpjh

Somewhere in this list I ran across a site that presented a maker in the process of dying and antiquing a pair of shoes made from crust .

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Tom,

Where do you get 7 oz. pearl grey apron splits?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[shoestring]

I was reading Boots & Shoes Vol IV.And ran across the use of "leather shanks"also how were they constructed and used to help mold the waist of a shoe.What takes place in making of a leather shank and what weight leather is used? I have only used steel but have seen other types of materials used for a shank while breaking down shoes.

Ed

[erickgeer]

Al,

Thanks, I'll be sure to post pictures! I think the only problem might be finding a place to let the oil oxidize- I'm presuming that it needs to be flat and exposed on something like a paper drying rack.

I had a bucket of tallow and a crock pot, but gave up on it when I closed my studio (bangs head on wall). Is the tallow there just for the waxy finish, or is it critical for the currying process?

Erick

[lancepryor]

Ed:

The London 'maker' I visited with made the shanks out of insole leather, which he cut to fit into the entire width of the space left between the rand in the heel, and also the welts in the forefoot -- just like a shank made of metal or wood, the forward part of the shank ends just a bit short of the tread line. The outside edges are skived to fit closely into the available space, and the leather is used grain-side to the insole. The grain is roughed up with a rasp and glued into place -- no nails or pegs are used to keep it in place, I assume because it fills the entire space and thus really has no where to move once the sole is put on top of it. Also, the forward edge of the shank is skived so that it blends with the cork filling used in the front part of the shoe. Once the shank is installed in the shoe, it can be skived to blend with the rand/welt, and also, as desired, trimmed to provide shape to the sole that will sit on top of it.

Since observing him, I've done the same. I do hammer jack the shank (before inserting it) in order to try to compress it and harden it so that it will be stiffer and provide more support. Also, I should think such a shank would only work on shoes with reasonably low heels.

Finally, in order to cut the shank to fit, it is helpful to run a piece of chalk around the inside of the rand and the welt, and then put the shank leather against this -- the chalk will leave an outline to use as a guide for cutting the shank. The same technique can be used for cutting the cork to fill the toe area.




Lance

(Message edited by lancepryor on January 10, 2008)

(Message edited by lancepryor on January 10, 2008)

[lancepryor]

Here is a pic of an early effort (ignore the terrible job on the toe!)

6346.jpg

Lance

[erickgeer]

Al,

Another question (I hope not a stupid one) is this recipe/process specifically for flesh out, or for grain side? Does this effect your choice of tallow as a finishing agent?

Thanks,

Erick

[headelf]

Marcel,
On YouTube (where you post your fine videos on shoemaking) there is a film of pointe shoes being made that shows many machines and the process. It's the Freid or Freed factory
It's from the film maker with the handle:
altinfilm
You should be able to search to find it.

Regards,
Georgene

[paul]

Looks like we're talkin' over the top of each other. But I don't see a thread for shanks, so I'll just contribute to the problem and add my thoughts here. Sorry Emmet.

Ed,

White's Boots use leather shanks in their Wildland Fire Boots. And I'd like to share what I've observed that they do. They use three pieces for some reason. The first is a piece of chrome upper leather about 1/2"X2" long, then a full length (about 5 1/2&#34 leather piece of about 12 iron. It's edged well along the length and skived about an inch back on the forepart. This is topped by another piece of chrome upper leather like the first one. They drive 1 cliching nail thru the whole works to hold it in place.
The shank area of the leather midsole is well nailed, similar to a CB boot. Then their mid-sole and Vibram sole.

What's happens is what's interesting.
When new, these boots really push up and support the arch. I'm sure this is a feature of the last model they use. Some guys describe it like standing on a roll of quarters. In a couple weeks, as the boots are broke in, this sensation goes away.
Now the interesting part. When they come in for repair (about a season for some of these guys) the arch is collapsed. Part of it is the leather shank, I'm sure. Yet the sole design of the lug Vibram contributes to a weakness int he shank area also. When new they look taller, but they're balanced at only a 5/8" heel height. So consequently, you have to shave off quite a bit at the front of the heel base, to get it to balance and set up properly.

This all tells me a leather shank is not going to support the arch in the long run as well as it does during the break-in. A fact the seems to work well for Wildland Fire Fighters. They can spend 14 hours in their boots on a fire and still walk 3 miles back to the truck!

So I'd conclude for my own use, a leather shank would be fine for a lower heeled shoe, just as Lance has shared. But one would want to be aware of the consequences in the long run, especially in higher heeled footwear.

Paul

[das]

Erick,

This method works fine on flesh or grain finished skins. Be sure to dye them first, as the dye won't take over the oil/tallow. The tallow does good things to the leather, besides giving it a nice feel, but tallow alone won't "oil dress" the leather.

You can roll the skins up to lay them by--no need to keep them laying flat.

Leather shank-pieces: I use these in all my historical repro stuff, because it's what was used. I use flanky bits of sole bend though, not insole shoulder, which I'd think would be too soft. I don't make smoke-jumpers' boots, but if I did, I'd use steel. I did rubber-dip some steel shanks in that tool-handle coating you can buy at the hardware store. So far they've not rusted, stained, or ruined the insoles (keeping fingers crossed).

[erickgeer]

Al,

Perfect, thanks.

Erick

[tmattimore]

D.W.
Weaver Leather in Ohio I will find a number later.
Tom

[lancepryor]

Al:

In thinking about this, I've concluded that outsole leather would be better as well. I could also be mistaken about the leather they used in London -- it could have been soling leather, I'll have to check my notes. In the historical stuff, was it soling leather that was used for the shanks (to the degree that there were any differences between insole and outsole leather back then)?

[bjohnsonleather]

DW,
DW,
Thanks for defining "crust". I have heard the term and never pursued what it really was.
Another source of 7 oz pearl apron splits is Siegels (www.siegelofca.com). They stock it in 5/6 and 7/8 weights. Biggest problem might be that they sell by the hide, not the side unless they get specials (?). I am thinking 50 square feet might be a lot of soles. I have found the lighter weight is usually pretty drapey. For the little weight difference, some of the 7/8 can get pretty stiff. Depends on what you are looking for. They will usually pick either way depending on what you want it to do.

Bruce