The Crispin Colloquy

For those of you that have made a shoe with a back heel apron.Do you cut say 10 mm of the heel counter than add the back apron to the counter,in order to close it.I have been playing with this idea and wondering if that's the way to go or not.Or just place the apron on with everything skived to nothing .

Ed

Ed,

What do you mean by a back heel apron? It sounds intriguing. I have been trying to picture what it looks like.

Tim

Tim,
What I am trying to explain and wondering about is that back part on the counter you see say on a pair of wing tip oxford shoes.Now my terminology may be off some here.It's sort of an over-lay on the main counter,or top piece.

Ed

Ed,

If it's what I think it is then it is just a counter as far as I know.

Does it go all the way up to the topline and over the top? Or, to put it another way, does it sweep down and then forward from the topline and then curve down to the lasting edge?

Tim

Tim,

That's the section I am referring to.If you have the book HMSFM,on page 81 there is a Tan & natural shoe.It's where the tan heel counter is married to the natural piece.Thanks for everything.

Ed

Ed,

I am away from home and dont have that book with me. For a counter like that, you can draw a straight line from the topline, down to just below 1/2 down the back, or maybe a bit further if you like, doing away with any curved line, the amount you lose here will easily be taken up by stretch.

Do you have my book, because the shaping of the back of the counter is the same as the shaping for the counter lining with the V at the bottom that I demonstrated there.

For the top, you should probably measure about 25 mm or 1" from the centre of the back, around the topline to give you a position for the front of the counter to sweep down. If you don't come far enough forward then it makes it a bit bulky around the back of the last. If you don't want it as far around as I have indicated then by all means change it. George Koleff gives dimensions for the shaping of the front but no lines are hard and fast here. I would probably drop to about 10mm below the topline and curve forwards and down around 25mm 1" forward of that and down to the lasting edge. I am guessing some of these dimensions but that should put you in the ball park. Add 10mm above the topline so there is enough material to go over the folded edge of the quarter, but don't fold that over until you have closed the sides to the quarters, then fold the last bit. The leading edge will sit better if you do it that way instead of folding it and then stitching.

Does that help?

Tim

Tim,
That does help and thanks for working with me.Here's what happened,I went to bed last evening with that though and about 1:30 this morning I woke up with a solution to my problem,I was able to undue the puzzle in my head.Again thanks for everything.

Ed

When I posted my one-piece oxfords in the Gallery, I wanted to post these photos, as well, but I got diverted.

I mentioned that I had dyed the leather because I had used a blue watercolour pencil on it and the marking wouldn't come off.

So here's the original vamp colour and an idea I was sort of fooling with before my student came in, in September. I was thinkig about doing this shoe, ultimately, in alligator, so I felt I needed a little help in forming the vamp.

I think this technique might make a good classic oxford lining too.



Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

First let me say the dark color would have been my choice.Seems that your boot making skills were incorporated along with your new found shoe making skills.Not a bad combination.And that can make for a nice oxford lining with a little tweaking here and there.I may try that with a paper model,a full lining had once crossed my head to.But now looking at what you got there I just may try my hand.

Ed

Ed,

Well, I probably wouldn't have worn the lighter colour much but I had an image in mind...part of which included the texture--which disappeared in lasting.

The lining...that was my first thought, too, as I put these together. Here I had been obsessing about seams and sewing the seams...and the sequence of sewing the seams...when I was making that first oxford singleton and yet a one piece lining seems the more elegant and simpler solution.

I used a three-quarter inch thick piece of junk plywood to make the board but I have a source for some really nice plywood (guaranteed no voids) and may even drop down to five-eighths inch thickness to make a permanent pair.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I too have wanted to have such a particular style shoe in the remeuda of styles I make.

Those of us who stayed for Sunday's semi-presentations, were given a look at just this very style by Dan Freeman. Thank you Dan. (Oh, I forgot, Dan admitted to only looking at his email but once a week. Well, he'll know we appreciated him now then.)

A one-piece like this would look great along side a pair of mules.

PK

Paul,

Did Dan use a crimping board, too? If so, isn't that funny--just goes to show, great minds think alike...mostly.

Dan...do you have photos? I'd like to compare notes.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

Yes he did.

Yes it is funny. The timing must be ripe for this style. Like I said, Lisa and looked at each other as soon as Dan posed his quandry, and said "crimp" to each other.

I sure hope someone got a picture of Dan with his board.

BTW,

I should add that Koleff shows such a crimp board, or blocking board, on page 49 of his Designing Manual.

PK

Dan just illustrated a simple V shaped board with paper but here is the prototype shoe he made.

I believe in the shoe trade these are called 'whole cuts,' since they are a one-piece upper. I know the maker I spent time with dislikes making them, since getting the uppers 'to the wood' is difficult.

I have a pair of whole cut uppers that were made for me in London, and I cannot get them down to the last below the vamp point. Given that they have the linings already in them, any of you bootmaking experts have any thoughts?

Whole-cuts, full-cuts... I was surprised they aren't mentioned in Handmade Shoes for Men. Allen Edmonds does a full-cut. I was chatting with Dan at the AGM about the company Berluti, which does some very interesting full-cuts.

Lance,

Maybe this is too basic a question, but have you tried hoisting? It is very critical to have the leather stretch the correct direction for the way you last. I've never tried it my self (outside of some linings). It shouldn't be to disimilar from lasting a pump with a high tongue/vamp. When springing the pattern, the pivot points are going to effect where there is more or less material to pull over the last. The "quarters" go from creating a more or less horse shoe shape, to a "V" shape- using a great deal more leather to make room for the cone of the last.

I hope I'm not repeating information,

Erick

I used a very stiff veg tanned water buffalo for mine (again to emulate the stiffeness of alligator) and didn't have any problem getting the vamp down to the wood.

I attribute that to the crimping. Here's an interesting tidbit--before I made these, I made a fitter's model and used a whole cut pattern. The leather for the FM was soft(er) and chrome tanned. No lining. I did have trouble getting these down cleanly (might have been a bad pattern, might have been inexperience....??)...which is why I thought a crimping board might be the ticket.

I do hoist and I did spritz. With a softer leather I have no doubts.

Lance, were the whole cut that were made for you "crimped?"

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Greetings all. I've come across the term 'nett line' lately in my reading and I don't know what it means, nor how it would differ from a regularly scribed line. Any help? Also, I'm grateful for the suggestion that I look on You Tube for video clips by Tim Skyrme and Marcel M. They were very helpful. Thanks very much. Ron MacIntyre

Shoemakers...

If we stipulate that the vamp point is located at the intersection of the center line of the forepart and a line drawn across the top of the forepart extending from the medial ball to the lateral ball, how far up the cone of the last from the vamp point should the top of the facing be located? Perhaps this is a ratio of the last length or something...I can handle that, but, just to be sure, let me ask this question another way:

If we can locate an instep point...or even better, as Bill illustrates on his OLGA diagrams, a low instep and a high instep...where, relative to either (or both) of these points, should the top of the facing lie?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Ron,

The answer is that it is the line drawn on the mean forme, (or any other bit of the pattern) that does not include any allowances for things like folding and underlays etc.

DW,

The mark you are referring to where the line from the i/s joint drawn across the centre line to the o/s joint is not the really the joint mark. It is confusing but I think it was called the point of the joint by George and the actual joint mark is about 10mm above that. That is where the top of the facing should be.

I am ready to be corrected on that if anyone else knows. In reality that point is too low.

Tim

Tim

Tim

I wanted to respond to this just to let you know that I appreciate your input...but I don't think I made myself clear.

I'm trying to get a sense of where on the cone of the last the top of the facings should be located. In other words, if I mark the location of the high instep and the low instep (some makers don't recognize or use the high instep) which of those marks will I see when have sucessfully lasted the shoe? Or will I see both of them?

I am pretty sure the top of the facing (where it turns into the topline...just below the top edge of the tongue) will be further down the cone than the high instep point. But will it be as far down as the low instep point? Or will it be somewhere in between?

Is there a hard and fast rule/ratio that governs this?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW:


According to the Pattern Cutter's Handbook (Sharpe), the vamp point can be identified a few different ways: 1. on the last, the VP is on the center line, as measured 3/4 of the standard last length forward from the counter point (CP) around the outside of the last
2. On the mean forme, the VP is 7/10 of the standard last length measured forward from the CP.
3. for an average round toe, you can measure backwards 4 1/4" from the toe for a size 8 last. Add 1/8" per size.

[The CP is 'traditionally' 1/5 of the standard last length + 1/2", but this may give too high a back. Another CP calculation is 2 1/5" for a size 8 (+1/16" for each size). The Back height is 3/8" above the CP.]

The top of the facings is 3 inches up the cone from the VP for an oxford, and 2 3/4" for a derby.

Lance

DW,

I think Lance has answered your question. I can't add any more to it. I am not sure what you mean by high and low instep measurements but that doesn't mean anything.

Tim

DW,

Using a last with normal toe elongation, approx. 15mm (not a fashion last with extra toe elongation or a last with an extra depth toe)
Measure the last along the bottom, tip of the toe to the featherline of the heel, take 1/3rd and measure that over the top center line from the tip of the toe. This will give you the vamp point. Take 2/3rd of the measurement you set out to find the vamp point along the center line and you get to the top of the facings.
This is just another way to skin the cat but I find this method the easiest and most useful. Try the different ways as they all will result in a slightly different spot on the last / foot and see what you like best.

The relation of the top of the facings to the low instep and high instep, my guess would be somewhere in between. The way I measure the foot I do not go for set points but let the foot dictate where I measure. I do mark my measurement spots very careful. Over time you'll just know when you look at a foot where you want the shoe to end and that's where you take your high instep as any higher measurements are not very useful.

Rob